The Barrels

[proudfootz]

Hi Proudfootz!

There were 3 Janda burn barrels found in back of the Janda home. The location seems to be pretty accurate. I think the map shows them closer to the vehicles in the yard then they actually are from looking at this picture.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-52-Yanda-Dassey-burn-barrels.jpg

One burn barrel was in front of SA's house.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-37-Avery-trailer-and-barrel.jpg

...and then there was 1 barrel that was searched at JR's deer camp.

No pictures taken of that one that I'm aware of.

While I suppose it's not impossible to tend 3 or 4 fires each one half a football field away from the other, but I guess I'd be pretty tired after that.

Any evidence Steven took the next day off to sleep in?

 

[missy1974]

Hi Proudfootz!

There were 3 Janda burn barrels found in back of the Janda home. The location seems to be pretty accurate. I think the map shows them closer to the vehicles in the yard then they actually are from looking at this picture.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-52-Yanda-Dassey-burn-barrels.jpg

One burn barrel was in front of SA's house.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-37-Avery-trailer-and-barrel.jpg

...and then there was 1 barrel that was searched at JR's deer camp.

No pictures taken of that one that I'm aware of.

I read this early this morning and didn't catch it.... but there was 4 barrel's behind the Janda residence. One in front of SA's residence, near the driveway. Then there was a deer camp barrel, but I don't think they ever took the barrel, just the contents of it. There is another barrel in evidence, but no idea where it came from... could be from another Avery residence on the property?

So 6 barrel's. Plus the deer camp barrel contents.

Barrel #4 was the one that when I was looking at the barrel's, I found that it had bone's too, along with barrel #2, the fire pit, and then the quarry that held the possible human pelvic bones.

grrrr does it bother anyone else that no one seems to care to do some more investigating to make sure that pelvic bone is human or not human? If it's not TH, then who or what does it belong too?

ETA: the 3 vs 4 barrel confusion may come from I think Blaine's Dassey's interview. He said they only had 3.

 

[Saul Vesalot]

I read this early this morning and didn't catch it.... but there was 4 barrel's behind the Janda residence. One in front of SA's residence, near the driveway. Then there was a deer camp barrel, but I don't think they ever took the barrel, just the contents of it. There is another barrel in evidence, but no idea where it came from... could be from another Avery residence on the property?

So 6 barrel's. Plus the deer camp barrel contents.

Barrel #4 was the one that when I was looking at the barrel's, I found that it had bone's too, along with barrel #2, the fire pit, and then the quarry that held the possible human pelvic bones.

grrrr does it bother anyone else that no one seems to care to do some more investigating to make sure that pelvic bone is human or not human? If it's not TH, then who or what does it belong too?

ETA: the 3 vs 4 barrel confusion may come from I think Blaine's Dassey's interview. He said they only had 3.

There was a picture I came across once with the other bones that supposedly came from Teresa. Someone identified at least one of those as an animal bone.

Anyone disagree with my idea that there are more bones out there somewhere?

 

[missy1974]

There was a picture I came across once with the other bones that supposedly came from Teresa. Someone identified at least one of those as an animal bone.

Anyone disagree with my idea that there are more bones out there somewhere?

I remember that too Saul.. it was a bird bone or something. It was on reddit and then picked up by some paper, maybe Daily Mail?

I absolutely agree about the bones. IIRC from Eisenberg's testimony, she inquired with a crematorium about the quantity of remains after a cremation, and she said there was 2-3 5ths of what she would have expected, or in other terms, 40-60%, I can't recall, but I think she said closer to 40%. It's in her testimony, in cross examination (I just happened to read it the other day) In the early days before we had a lot of documentation, there was a big discussion about the fire, how hot it would have to be, etc. I don't recall the specifics now, but IMO I didn't think he could have a fire that hot for that long.

I have wondered if KZ has more evidence from somewhere.... the deer camp? the red trailer that used to be at the deer camp? the quarry? somewhere we have no clue about yet? lol

 

[Saul Vesalot]

I remember that too Saul.. it was a bird bone or something. It was on reddit and then picked up by some paper, maybe Daily Mail?

I absolutely agree about the bones. IIRC from Eisenberg's testimony, she inquired with a crematorium about the quantity of remains after a cremation, and she said there was 2-3 5ths of what she would have expected, or in other terms, 40-60%, I can't recall, but I think she said closer to 40%. It's in her testimony, in cross examination (I just happened to read it the other day) In the early days before we had a lot of documentation, there was a big discussion about the fire, how hot it would have to be, etc. I don't recall the specifics now, but IMO I didn't think he could have a fire that hot for that long.

I have wondered if KZ has more evidence from somewhere.... the deer camp? the red trailer that used to be at the deer camp? the quarry? somewhere we have no clue about yet? lol

http://www.businessinsider.com/making-a-murderer-fans-found-new-bone-evidence-2016-8

There we go!
No idea if this is at all reliable, but it certainly makes me nervous. As much as I feel this case is messed up, this feels like such a huge deal to me. Not only did this bird bone survive a "Cremation" but they are extra delicate. Bird bones are largely hollow (to reduce weight and make flight easier and more efficient) and very delicate. A fire hot enough to vaporize most of a skull should have left nothing of this bone. Also, the anthropologist thought it was human. Assuming this is true, I hate how it makes me feel. haha

 

[proudfootz]

I read this early this morning and didn't catch it.... but there was 4 barrel's behind the Janda residence. One in front of SA's residence, near the driveway. Then there was a deer camp barrel, but I don't think they ever took the barrel, just the contents of it. There is another barrel in evidence, but no idea where it came from... could be from another Avery residence on the property?

So 6 barrel's. Plus the deer camp barrel contents.

Barrel #4 was the one that when I was looking at the barrel's, I found that it had bone's too, along with barrel #2, the fire pit, and then the quarry that held the possible human pelvic bones.

grrrr does it bother anyone else that no one seems to care to do some more investigating to make sure that pelvic bone is human or not human? If it's not TH, then who or what does it belong too?

ETA: the 3 vs 4 barrel confusion may come from I think Blaine's Dassey's interview. He said they only had 3.

BBM

I have a feeling this will be one more loose end KZ will tie up, if her team has access to these bones.

 

[proudfootz]

http://www.businessinsider.com/making-a-murderer-fans-found-new-bone-evidence-2016-8

There we go!
No idea if this is at all reliable, but it certainly makes me nervous. As much as I feel this case is messed up, this feels like such a huge deal to me. Not only did this bird bone survive a "Cremation" but they are extra delicate. Bird bones are largely hollow (to reduce weight and make flight easier and more efficient) and very delicate. A fire hot enough to vaporize most of a skull should have left nothing of this bone. Also, the anthropologist thought it was human. Assuming this is true, I hate how it makes me feel. haha

In the BONES thread there is a post about Eisenberg who seems to be the 'bone identification expert'.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?298351-Bones/page13

Shaun Rudy was accused of burning his unborn child in his fire pit, but it turned out the charred bones were not those of his child.

I've read a lot of stuff about these 'human cremains' in the Rudy case actually being of some animal, but no luck finding reliable link.

 

[Saul Vesalot]

In the BONES thread there is a post about Eisenberg who seems to be the 'bone identification expert'.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?298351-Bones/page13

Shaun Rudy was accused of burning his unborn child in his fire pit, but it turned out the charred bones were not those of his child.

I've read a lot of stuff about these 'human cremains' in the Rudy case actually being of some animal, but no luck finding reliable link.

http://cwbradio.com/news/?fn_mode=fullnews&fn_id=933

Here is a link discussing the bones. It says they were sent off for DNA testing. Of course, one of the police said she couldn't be mistaken...AFTER the body was already found elsewhere...

Does not provide an answer as to where the bones did come from though.

Will keep looking though. This on its own is an interesting mystery

 

[dexter75]

http://cwbradio.com/news/?fn_mode=fullnews&fn_id=933

Here is a link discussing the bones. It says they were sent off for DNA testing. Of course, one of the police said she couldn't be mistaken...AFTER the body was already found elsewhere...

Does not provide an answer as to where the bones did come from though.

Will keep looking though. This on its own is an interesting mystery

Yep, Many of us feel your frustration when it comes to them bones. :gaah:

 

[dexter75]

I remember that too Saul.. it was a bird bone or something. It was on reddit and then picked up by some paper, maybe Daily Mail?

I absolutely agree about the bones. IIRC from Eisenberg's testimony, she inquired with a crematorium about the quantity of remains after a cremation, and she said there was 2-3 5ths of what she would have expected, or in other terms, 40-60%, I can't recall, but I think she said closer to 40%. It's in her testimony, in cross examination (I just happened to read it the other day) In the early days before we had a lot of documentation, there was a big discussion about the fire, how hot it would have to be, etc. I don't recall the specifics now, but IMO I didn't think he could have a fire that hot for that long.

I have wondered if KZ has more evidence from somewhere.... the deer camp? the red trailer that used to be at the deer camp? the quarry? somewhere we have no clue about yet? lol

I have always wondered if Zellner had a fire expert out there and he lit a fire with flames 10 feet tall, threw in some junk and used an accelerant if that shed would stand a chance? And that petroleum tank? Awfully close.
I think KZ has much more, and someone has been telling her what went down.

 

[Saul Vesalot]

I have always wondered if Zellner had a fire expert out there and he lit a fire with flames 10 feet tall, threw in some junk and used an accelerant if that shed would stand a chance? And that petroleum tank? Awfully close.
I think KZ has much more, and someone has been telling her what went down.

That is sort of what I was thinking with a reenactment. Would the siding on his trailer melt? People like to talk about how hard it would have been to sneak bones into his fire pit with it being so close to his window.....how hard would it be to have an 1800 degree fire that close to your house for 6ish hours without it doing damage or starting other fires. And did Steven have any burns on him? None that I can recall. He pulled a LONG, LONG day that would have drained anyone, and then he ended it with many many hours of tending a raging inferno and he didn't screw that up?

 

[proudfootz]

That is sort of what I was thinking with a reenactment. Would the siding on his trailer melt? People like to talk about how hard it would have been to sneak bones into his fire pit with it being so close to his window.....how hard would it be to have an 1800 degree fire that close to your house for 6ish hours without it doing damage or starting other fires. And did Steven have any burns on him? None that I can recall. He pulled a LONG, LONG day that would have drained anyone, and then he ended it with many many hours of tending a raging inferno and he didn't screw that up?

Not only that, but Steven is also supposed to have trotted 60 yards over to the Janda burn barrels and burned stuff there, then gone about 50 yards around to the front of the house where his own burn barrel was and burn stuff there. These three locations form a triangle of about 50 yards on a side - so that's quite a bit of running around he has to do, while taking breaks to eat dinner with his folks, field phone calls in the house at random times, not to mention all the things the prosecution imagines he must have been doing (driving the RAV4 all over the place, hiding it 600 yards from the three raging fires and walking back, eliminating all DNA and blood from two crime scenes, etc).

I can tell from my personal experience it's dangerous to leave one bonfire unattended for even a few minutes (and mine's not next to what looks to be at least a 100 gallon propane tank!), let alone tend to three raging fires alleged to have reduced a corpse to the state they were found in.

All MOO, naturally.

 

[Karinna]

There was a picture I came across once with the other bones that supposedly came from Teresa. Someone identified at least one of those as an animal bone.

Anyone disagree with my idea that there are more bones out there somewhere?

BBM, The Bones are a contentious point IMO. Were all the bones in the fire pit enmeshed in steel belts, barrels, & at the quarry tested, or was it only assumed they were all TH's human remains ?
I'm sure seeing as a couple of the Avery family members were hunters, deer & rabbit shooting that animal bones and whatever else after butchering them for meat were burned to prevent the smell of rotting carcasses and to get rid of any waste. So i would hope all presumed human bones were tested so it was beyond a doubt they were in fact human.
And is there even such a test that can identify them to be human, apart from obvious ones like a skull or pelvis to determine that?
And keeping in mind that a body subjected to very high temperature at burning destroys DNA. Usually burned victims are identified through dental records. And the perpetrator in this case made darn sure if it was TH there would be no way of identifying her IMO. Wonder why that would be?

 

[Karinna]

Not only that, but Steven is also supposed to have trotted 60 yards over to the Janda burn barrels and burned stuff there, then gone about 50 yards around to the front of the house where his own burn barrel was and burn stuff there. These three locations form a triangle of about 50 yards on a side - so that's quite a bit of running around he has to do, while taking breaks to eat dinner with his folks, field phone calls in the house at random times, not to mention all the things the prosecution imagines he must have been doing (driving the RAV4 all over the place, hiding it 600 yards from the three raging fires and walking back, eliminating all DNA and blood from two crime scenes, etc).

I can tell from my personal experience it's dangerous to leave one bonfire unattended for even a few minutes (and mine's not next to what looks to be at least a 100 gallon propane tank!), let alone tend to three raging fires alleged to have reduced a corpse to the state they were found in.

All MOO, naturally.

Yeah, it seems ridiculous & unbelievable to me that someone went to those lengths IMO.

 

[Karinna]

I have always wondered if Zellner had a fire expert out there and he lit a fire with flames 10 feet tall, threw in some junk and used an accelerant if that shed would stand a chance? And that petroleum tank? Awfully close.
I think KZ has much more, and someone has been telling her what went down.

I agree.

 

[missy1974]

Unfortunately Karinna... we will never know anything more about those bones IMO Because proper photo's, making a grid, documenting the bones properly was never done. The most recent pictures from BD's trial actually show that they raked up the "ash" into a pile IMO They either did this because they are truly incompetent idiots, or because they were trying to hide something like the bones laying on top of the crusted over ash that was in the pit, again JMO.

As for the testing... if anything exists, I'm sure KZ knows about it by now.

 

[Karinna]

In the BONES thread there is a post about Eisenberg who seems to be the 'bone identification expert'.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?298351-Bones/page13

Shaun Rudy was accused of burning his unborn child in his fire pit, but it turned out the charred bones were not those of his child.

I've read a lot of stuff about these 'human cremains' in the Rudy case actually being of some animal, but no luck finding reliable link.

(quote)
INVESTIGATORS WONDER WHERE BONES CAME FROM
Court documents show Dr. Leslie Eisenberg of the State Crime Lab in Madison wrote investigators asking them to �consider the mechanisms by which the fetal remains, yet very few adult remains, made their way to the �burn� pile�, and says it�s �possible the fetus was deliberately removed and burned independently of the majority of the adult remains�.

But investigators were surprised when what�s believed to be Christine Rudy�s body was found last month in the Chippewa River - the fetus was still intact.
http://cwbradio.com/news/?fn_mode=fullnews&fn_id=933

 

[Karinna]

So did Eisenberg get it wrong in that case, or was there another different fetus that was burned in the pit?
If she was in fact mistaken in that case, that would question her credibility in the Halbach case too i would think so with the bone evidence? And what about evidence that was sent to the FBI in the Rudy case, what were the results does anyone know? All IMO.

 

[IDK]

So did Eisenberg get it wrong in that case, or was there another different fetus that was burned in the pit?
If she was in fact mistaken in that case, that would question her credibility in the Halbach case too i would think so with the bone evidence? And what about evidence that was sent to the FBI in the Rudy case, what were the results does anyone know? All IMO.

Rhetorical question here: how come these "professionals" are never held responsible for their mistakes??!! That 's a pretty big one and could definitely be interpreted as her manufacturing evidence negative to the defendant. Alternatively, if there was a different fetus burned in the pit, why was there never an investigation into those remains? It stinks out loud, IMO!!!!!

 

[missy1974]

So, I went looking for info on the Christine Rudy murder, where Eisenberg identified human fetal remains in a burn pit.... I found a forum here on websleuths...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?99-The-State-of-Wisconsin-vs-Shaun-W-Rudy

Here is a thread that was started when they found CR's partial remains, fetus intact: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?38046-More-of-Christines-remains-found

Unfortunately, a lot of the links don't work anymore, and when SR plead guilty, the interest in the forum dropped. Posters at the time don't seem to consider that Eisenberg was just right out wrong about her ID of the bones and instead think there was 2 babies! :thinking: Snips from articles indicate that those burned remains were sent to the FBI for further identification, but I can't find anything more after that... except an article where the State says there was only "1 fetus involved" in this murder. CR's partial remains were found on March 30th, 2006, so look for posts around or after that time.