The case for murder

[time]

Uh, yeah, and maybe Max's death was just an accident :headache: and maybe the is insignificant or just a set-up - until there is more information, it seems highly unlikely that Adam was the one who accessed the the day before Rebecca was murdered. And, we have no info that the he was watching that morning was the same kind of as the day before (which seems highly specific) nor that he would need to use search terms to find the he wanted. To just throw out that it bothers you isn't very meaningful minoe.

 

[minazoe]

it's just mysterious, the knots, the , the asian bondage animation, makes you wonder.

I keep wondering if Rebecca has ever been in any ... her family and friends will insist she did not, but it is possible...i find the idea of someone looking at with an unknown card during the deathwatch of a child...very very odd. That it leaned toward Asian in content is even odder.

the screaming doesn't really mean anything, if she killed herself she could have had a massive meltdown and been screaming from shock...perhaps she never processed the accident and was in denial until she got the news.

still the whole scene is so completely bizarre that I don't believe it was a suicide.

 

[time]

it's just mysterious, the knots, the , the asian bondage animation, makes you wonder.

I keep wondering if Rebecca has ever been in any ... her family and friends will insist she did not, but it is possible...i find the idea of someone looking at with an unknown card during the deathwatch of a child...very very odd. That it leaned toward Asian in content is even odder.

the screaming doesn't really mean anything, if she killed herself she could have had a massive meltdown and been screaming from shock...perhaps she never processed the accident and was in denial until she got the news.

still the whole scene is so completely bizarre that I don't believe it was a suicide.

Are you saying that if I were a redhead with dutch ancestry, then I would watch of a redheaded female wearing wooden shoes inside a windmill?

Or, I guess as a more complete analogy to Rebecca's case, I would fantasize I was stuffed in a beer stein - since anime probably didn't originate in Burma.

 

[minazoe]

maybe...lolz

 

[Gilgamesh]

To me the shoplifting's significance is not in the crime itself but in the impact it had on someone's perception of Dr Peterson's credibility in claiming Max was suffocated. If DS and JS hand anything to do with RZ's murder. It certainly was not about a petty crime RZ'S committed years ago but about Max's death.

Shoplifting is essentially stealing out of covet of material things that do not belong to the offender. The offender risks being caught for material things they desire. Most shoplifters are not violent and would never commit a crime such as murder. Now in the situation JS and DS faced on that tragic day, you have a doctor claiming your son was dying because there's physical evidence he was suffocated before a fall. And the only adult with him at the time of the incidence was RZ. You have to ask yourself if this was possible . What would be the motive? Would there be any benefit to RZ if Max was dead. Under this light, a past crime showing one's covet for material things would not be a favorable trait. As some implied that RZ might consider Max an obstacle to her marriage to JS. As rich as JS is, any younger woman who dates him may be suspected as a gold digger by some, not mention someone with a crime that showed a covet for material things. I personally don't think there's a connection between RZ's shoplifting and Max's death. However, we are talking about RZ's death not Max's. The key here is not the connection between the shoplifting and Max's death. But the possibility that RZ's shoplifting might have given Dr Peterson's claim more credibility. It may have shed light on some's speculation on RZ's motive in harming Max. Hence it may justify someone's revenge against RZ.

You are extremely articulate and a great rational thinker. Hats off to you.

 

[screecher]

That's exactly why I don't think it is all that important to talk about much more. The shoplifting was the biggest thing Dina could come up with to attack Rebecca's character. Next is the name thing. Next is the jiujitsu thing - and as you can see we are getting further away with each reason from anything that can be validated. Next is the healthy food thing - which now veers on looney reasons that Dina brought up about Rebecca given she also thought having a candy drawer made her a wonderful parent!! You put all this together with the fact that on the other side there were far more serious things going on in Max's young life, like domestic abuse and violence and it's a crazy convoluted picture.

I think this murder occurred mostly because someone was already worked up about everything and overly controlling. Because someone even tried to control visitation and attending normal events. Because someone was already worked up before the first day was even over about Max's accident and whose sister interrogated Rebecca after she picked her up at the airport. And, the doctor claiming the suffocation. BINGO - it's a perfect recipe for someone with violent and controlling tendencies who just lost their only child, with no hope of having another child let alone an heir to the fortune, to lash out.

BBM

Spot on. Spot on.

 

[Betty P]

If the police really believed Rebecca was responsible for Max's death, there would have been an immediate thorough, aggresive and open investigation of her. All of the money and influence of JS would have been brought to bear upon SDSO and Coronado PD to make the case - whether Rebecca was dead or alive. In our society today, when a commoner is believed responsible for the death of a scion of a wealthy family, LE will pursue it fully. They naturally and logically respond to that kind of pressure.

OTOH, when a commoner dies, possibly at the hand of a relative of a wealthy, powerful person, LE usually reacts differently. Whether from fear of lawsuits or concern about winning a case against a suspect who can afford the best legal representation that money can buy, LE and prosecutors tend to move much more slowly and cautiously.

What we saw were investigations that were short, perfunctory and quickly wrapped up. That's not the way LE usually responds when they're feeling pressure from the wealthy, powerful families of a victim. JS would have brought to bear plenty of pressure if there was any indication that RZ was responsible for Max's death.

ETA: Let's also not foget that Dr. Peterson dropped the claims of possible child abuse once Max's autopsy revealed how his death occurred. The extent of hidden damage to his spinal cord, which resulted in near immediate cardiac and respiratory arrest, was not detected by scans, etc. when he was alive. They only became fully apparent during autopsy. At that point the doctors understood the nature of his death and knew it wasn't the result of suffocation.

 

[K_Z]

Spot on, Betty P. I completely agree that the pace and tempo of the investigation into Max's death indicates that the police had no suspicions of any foul play on behalf of Rebecca or her sister, or Jonah.

However, I disagree that the doctors did not know about Max's cord contusion until autopsy. I firmly believe that the evidence that they did know is in his medical records.I believe they knew this before Rebecca died. I also believe with strong certainty that they told both Jonah and Dina about this, even if it was not completely apparent on the first MRI-- certainly on the second MRI it was evident. Once the initial radiographs demonstrated no bony damage to the cervical spine, with the enormous sagittal skull fracture, and prolonged cardiac arrest, they absolutely suspected severe cord damage. And even if by some strange chance this was not communicated to Dina and Jonah (or not understood by them), the very fact that he had a documented 30 min arrest (and likely a few min longer than from when EMT's arrived) from blunt head trauma gave him less than a 1% chance of survival on admission to Rady. Docs would have not been even cautiously optimistic, imo. I think the best Max ever achieved after admission to Rady was a level of some cardiovascular stability for a brief period of time. I do believe they told them as gently as they could, over several conversations, but I have never believed Dina's stories that everyone thought Max was going to make it, and just need a tutor for a few months. I think that the process to establish brain death began within a 2 days at most. I think the rapid pace at which Jonah's physician friend arrived also indicates how dire his prognosis was.

I think there is a good chance the reason Howard Luber immediately dropped what he was doing and flew in to help Jonah and Dina understand what was going on with Max, and be an advocate for them, as well as emotionally supporting them, is that Max was not expected to live. (Does anyone know if Luber has a busy practice? Not easy for a busy internal med doc to cancel days of clinic, hospital rounds, get other docs to cover hospitalized patients, etc and fly out with just a few hours notice.)

 

[iSleuth]

IMO- -The fact that RZ died in the middle of a literal witch hunt is a case for murder.

The night that she died, someone with anger Righteous indignation- and motive - by their own confession, was one of the very the last to initiate contact with her. The person has admitted sending a txt went to - the house- to the front door...went as far as investigating the property enough to know that RZ was home( her car was in the drive way).. actually peered through the windows! pretty creepy.

Were RZ alive -she could possibly charge the person with trespassing and stalking? IMO motive and opportunity. The fact that these two souls ( MS and RZ) are gone is not enough? still the same people are stalking RZ after her death and defame her in almost every way committing slander and libel, trying to trash RZ's name with blatant disregard for truth or falsity. Accusing her of viewing, lying, abuse, stealing, gold digging and even murder.

think about it. If RZ was alive...could she charge some certain people with Stalking, trespassing, harassment, slander and libel?

JMO

 

[K_Z]

IMO- -The fact that RZ died in the middle of a literal witch hunt is a case for murder.

The night that she died, someone with anger Righteous indignation- and motive - by their own confession, was one of the very the last to initiate contact with her. The person has admitted sending a txt went to - the house- to the front door...went as far as investigating the property enough to know that RZ was home( her car was in the drive way).. actually peered through the windows! pretty creepy.

Were RZ alive -she could possibly charge the person with trespassing and stalking? IMO motive and opportunity. The fact that these two souls ( MS and RZ) are gone is not enough? still the same people are stalking RZ after her death and defame her in almost every way committing slander and libel, trying to trash RZ's name with blatant disregard for truth or falsity. Accusing her of viewing, lying, abuse, stealing, gold digging and even murder.

think about it. If RZ was alive...could she charge some certain people with Stalking, trespassing, harassment, slander and libel?

JMO

BBM

If she was alive, possibly-- if she could prove that she was damaged by their actions in a civil case. Unfortunately, once someone is dead, you can say just about any horrible, nasty, or outright lie about about them, and get away with it. Rebecca can't be hurt by their nastiness anymore. But it is extremely painful to her family, I'm sure, to have to endure Dina and Nina's public haranguing. I feel tremendous sympathy for the young teen sister as well, to have to experience all of this at such a young age. I'm glad the family has carefully sheltered her from the public. I still worry for her safety. A lawsuit could be brought on her behalf, if necessary.

 

[iSleuth]

Are you saying that if I were a redhead with dutch ancestry, then I would watch of a redheaded female wearing wooden shoes inside a windmill?

Or, I guess as a more complete analogy to Rebecca's case, I would fantasize I was stuffed in a beer stein - since anime probably didn't originate in Burma.

Lol... Wendy does Windmills... analogy is funny to me. TY time. and one of these?
OT
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...7N7mUJv5O6re0gH9h4GQCQ&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAA&dur=51

 

[bourne]

IMO- -The fact that RZ died in the middle of a literal witch hunt is a case for murder.

The night that she died, someone with anger Righteous indignation- and motive - by their own confession, was one of the very the last to initiate contact with her. The person has admitted sending a txt went to - the house- to the front door...went as far as investigating the property enough to know that RZ was home( her car was in the drive way).. actually peered through the windows! pretty creepy.

Were RZ alive -she could possibly charge the person with trespassing and stalking? IMO motive and opportunity. The fact that these two souls ( MS and RZ) are gone is not enough? still the same people are stalking RZ after her death and defame her in almost every way committing slander and libel, trying to trash RZ's name with blatant disregard for truth or falsity. Accusing her of viewing, lying, abuse, stealing, gold digging and even murder.

think about it. If RZ was alive...could she charge some certain people with Stalking, trespassing, harassment, slander and libel?

JMO

I completely agree. I find it absolutely disgusting that some people have the unremitting gall and compulsion to continuously trash a dead murdered victim, Becky, who cannot defend herself. In all the other cases in which a victim is murdered, I see no one denigrating and bringing false accusations against the victim post-mortem. What happened to humanity and respecting the dead in this case?

The only reason I can see why some people would slander and denigrate Becky is that they are consumed with either guilt for having participated in her murder and are trying real hard to deflect their own responsibility by blaming Becky the victim, or they are hateful people -- perhaps even racists -- consumed with unnatural jealousy for Becky who by slandering and insulting Becky post-mortem gain some type of sick power over the dead victim, much like bullies in school playgrounds.

I also agree that Dina and Nina, by their own admissions that they believe that Becky purposefully assaulted and caused the homicide of Max, had the strongest motives to want Becky dead. Both also had the capacity and the means to murder Becky as both were trained in boating so they both are skilled in rope typing and hauling techniques. And both had the opportunity to do harm to Becky as only Dina's cellphone was alibied in the vicinity of the hospital, and Nina herself admitted to being at the Spreckels mansion the night Becky was killed.

So the Romano twins had all 3 elements to commit murder: motive, means and opportunity. Why LE refused to investigate these two remains a mystery to me.

 

[Inparadise]

Spot on, Betty P. I completely agree that the pace and tempo of the investigation into Max's death indicates that the police had no suspicions of any foul play on behalf of Rebecca or her sister, or Jonah.

However, I disagree that the doctors did not know about Max's cord contusion until autopsy. I firmly believe that the evidence that they did know is in his medical records.I believe they knew this before Rebecca died. I also believe with strong certainty that they told both Jonah and Dina about this, even if it was not completely apparent on the first MRI-- certainly on the second MRI it was evident. Once the initial radiographs demonstrated no bony damage to the cervical spine, with the enormous sagittal skull fracture, and prolonged cardiac arrest, they absolutely suspected severe cord damage. And even if by some strange chance this was not communicated to Dina and Jonah (or not understood by them), the very fact that he had a documented 30 min arrest (and likely a few min longer than from when EMT's arrived) from blunt head trauma gave him less than a 1% chance of survival on admission to Rady. Docs would have not been even cautiously optimistic, imo. I think the best Max ever achieved after admission to Rady was a level of some cardiovascular stability for a brief period of time. I do believe they told them as gently as they could, over several conversations, but I have never believed Dina's stories that everyone thought Max was going to make it, and just need a tutor for a few months. I think that the process to establish brain death began within a 2 days at most. I think the rapid pace at which Jonah's physician friend arrived also indicates how dire his prognosis was.

I think there is a good chance the reason Howard Luber immediately dropped what he was doing and flew in to help Jonah and Dina understand what was going on with Max, and be an advocate for them, as well as emotionally supporting them, is that Max was not expected to live. (Does anyone know if Luber has a busy practice? Not easy for a busy internal med doc to cancel days of clinic, hospital rounds, get other docs to cover hospitalized patients, etc and fly out with just a few hours notice.)

Luber is in a group practice (Dermatology) with 8 other docs, and they have 2 office locations:

Southwest Skin Specialists
11130 N Tatum Blvd Ste 100
Phoenix, AZ 85028
(602) 494-1817

Southwest Skin Specialists
10200 N 92nd St Ste 205
Scottsdale, AZ 85258
(602) 494-1817

 

[time]

Lol... Wendy does Windmills... analogy is funny to me. TY time. and one of these?
OT
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...7N7mUJv5O6re0gH9h4GQCQ&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAA&dur=51

Oh, yes, a hat is a must to complete the outfit!

 

[KarenM]

Even if DS wanted to kill RZ, without the assistance of JS and AS, she'd be hitting a lottery to be able to sneak into an occupied house, killed RZ, dragged her body over mud (as RZ's feet were covered in mud) and hanged her over a balcony, all without being heard or seen by AS who stayed in the same house. Even two neighbors heard the scream, did AS just black out? Even for whatever reason, AS did black out, how could DS reasonably expect AS to black out when planning the murder so everything could go so smoothly?

DS would be hitting another lottery when AS found RZ’s body next morning and immediately assumed RZ committed suicide even if her hands and feet were tied and mouth gagged. AS also did not leave any finger prints over the rope or RZ's body even if he cut her down.

Someone above commented that crimes in a wealthy household receive more attention. This is true. Let's not forget this applies to RZ too. As a girlfriend to a very wealthy and well connected man, her death should have normally received a very thorough investigation. Instead the shoddy work done (police boot mark on balcony, many evidence not tested, etc.) was beyond belief and helped the killer greatly. RZ's expert team encountered great obstacle in every step on the journey to obtain justice for RZ. It looks like DS hit yet another lottery!

I don't think DS is this lucky. I think she was only one of the perpetrators.

I think it was a man who executed RZ, saw her nude body, out of perverted arousal, also viewed on her computer.

MOO

 

[inthedark14]

If the police really believed Rebecca was responsible for Max's death, there would have been an immediate thorough, aggresive and open investigation of her. All of the money and influence of JS would have been brought to bear upon SDSO and Coronado PD to make the case - whether Rebecca was dead or alive. In our society today, when a commoner is believed responsible for the death of a scion of a wealthy family, LE will pursue it fully. They naturally and logically respond to that kind of pressure.

OTOH, when a commoner dies, possibly at the hand of a relative of a wealthy, powerful person, LE usually reacts differently. Whether from fear of lawsuits or concern about winning a case against a suspect who can afford the best legal representation that money can buy, LE and prosecutors tend to move much more slowly and cautiously.

What we saw were investigations that were short, perfunctory and quickly wrapped up. That's not the way LE usually responds when they're feeling pressure from the wealthy, powerful families of a victim. JS would have brought to bear plenty of pressure if there was any indication that RZ was responsible for Max's death.

ETA: Let's also not foget that Dr. Peterson dropped the claims of possible child abuse once Max's autopsy revealed how his death occurred. The extent of hidden damage to his spinal cord, which resulted in near immediate cardiac and respiratory arrest, was not detected by scans, etc. when he was alive. They only became fully apparent during autopsy. At that point the doctors understood the nature of his death and knew it wasn't the result of suffocation.

Hi Betty! I 1000% agree with you. If LE had any indication, any at all that RZ had something to do with MS' demise, wouldn't they have shouted that to high heaven. Because, that would give them all the suicide motive that they would need. The official consensus is that she was distraught over MS' impending death. Her conversations and text messages to her sister do show that she was, as any normal person would be, upset, worried...but by no means suicidal.

If I've said it once I've said it a gazillion times. If LE thought that RZ hurt MS then they would have said that. It would make their suicide theory so much more plausible. But WHY DIDN'T THEY?!? If it was true, they why in the world didn't they tell the world that RZ felt guilty about MS and that's why she took her own life. Well, they didn't, because she didn't. She was worried about her boyfriend and his son and doing everything she could to help. Including subjecting herself to an angry ex-wife and her equally angry sister.

Even with a wealthy family involved, LE could have boxed this up and presented it as a case of a murder/suicide. But THEY DIDN'T. This is where I'm confused, because if they had said that, would we all be still talking about this? I wonder how the administrative actions came down on this, how and why they decided this was an accident/suicide. I'd wager that the people who worked RZ's crime scene didn't really have a say in how everything was presented to the public. Perhaps not even from that awful day when she was left out in the sun for so many hours...when so much was lost to the elements.

Always, MOO

 

[inthedark14]

I completely agree. I find it absolutely disgusting that some people have the unremitting gall and compulsion to continuously trash a dead murdered victim, Becky, who cannot defend herself. In all the other cases in which a victim is murdered, I see no one denigrating and bringing false accusations against the victim post-mortem. What happened to humanity and respecting the dead in this case?

The only reason I can see why some people would slander and denigrate Becky is that they are consumed with either guilt for having participated in her murder and are trying real hard to deflect their own responsibility by blaming Becky the victim, or they are hateful people -- perhaps even racists -- consumed with unnatural jealousy for Becky who by slandering and insulting Becky post-mortem gain some type of sick power over the dead victim, much like bullies in school playgrounds.

I also agree that Dina and Nina, by their own admissions that they believe that Becky purposefully assaulted and caused the homicide of Max, had the strongest motives to want Becky dead. Both also had the capacity and the means to murder Becky as both were trained in boating so they both are skilled in rope typing and hauling techniques. And both had the opportunity to do harm to Becky as only Dina's cellphone was alibied in the vicinity of the hospital, and Nina herself admitted to being at the Spreckels mansion the night Becky was killed.

So the Romano twins had all 3 elements to commit murder: motive, means and opportunity. Why LE refused to investigate these two remains a mystery to me.

Bourne! You read my mind. What reason could anyone have to go to such lengths to disrespect RZ? Why in the world, would several someones decide that it is ok to be so awful to the memory of someone who died so horribly? The gleeful, aggressive and hate filled things that are all over the internet and will be for entirety are not the work of some PR company paid to make JS look shiny and nice through all this tragedy. When RZ's unconvinced crime was brought into question, that wasn't enough. It turned into a total character assassination. Now we have unsubstantiated rumors and healthy eating as cause for a woman, with no violent past (unlike others very closely related to this case) to suddenly and inexplicably become homicidal. Riigghhtt. :what:

As this goes on, the more I see the true colors of those involved.

 

[KarenM]

This still seems a bit convoluted to me. I still can't see much of a connection being made in that 1 1/2 days to the shoplifting and to any claim Max was suffocated unless someone is horribly uninformed about shoplifters.

Although, it appears you are implying that Rebecca had a motive to harm Max because of the shoplifting charge as related to perceived gold digging tendencies. It also appears that your claim is that because of the shoplifting and Rebecca's status in life, that someone thought Rebecca could be seen as a gold digger and therefore would murder Max in order to get it all and be rid of Dina and Max's claim over anything. What about Kimberly and the other kids then? What about the fact that Dina already had it out for Rebecca anyway?

If anything, this shoplifting related to Rebecca's murder is just a small drop in the bucket as to what has gone on, perceived or otherwise.

You misunderstood my post. I said clearly I didn't think there's any link between a shoplifting record and Max's death. I said it could make someone (this someone is the killer) draw the link though. Dr Peterson's words were not retracted back then. Autopsy on Max had not been done yet. With Dr Peterson's claim of suffocation ringing in the ear, any negative information about RZ at that time made the killer suspect and hate RZ more. Maybe DS already hated RZ so much she did not need anything to hate her more. How about JS? Is it possible he changed his feelings about RZ after hearing Dr Peterson's claim and DS's background check result on RZ? Could he suddenly find out RZ's close contact with Neil and criminal history and started doubting RZ's love for him?

 

[Gilgamesh]

Juries are human. They will take into consideration all testimony and facts, but when it comes down to it, they are swayed by personal feelings as well. When sitting on the fence, they will have the tendency to convict those they don't like and acquit those they do.
Adam has shown some pretty creepy behavior. Dina is sympathetic in that she lost her only son. On the other hand, Dina has bashed and vilified Rebecca. Her accusations of RZ murdering her son have not gained any traction. After the second Dr. Phil show I read comments on many different Internet sites. Some were sympathetic to Dina but most people who commented just said that they didn't believe the way that the entire Spreckels case was presented. They didn't believe the police, they didn't believe Dina and they didn't think that RZ hung herself or killed Max. They were suspicious of Dina, Adam and Jonah.
My personal opinion is that Dina was trying very, very hard to get sympathy from the media and from the public. It DID NOT WORK.
I am also of the opinion that if this case goes to trial, these two people (if they go on trial), are NOT sympathetic characters. There is some major PR that needs to get cranking.

 

[Gilgamesh]

May I add that all this is just my opinion. Personally, I haven't ruled out other POI's as being involved in this murder. I am just referring to the two POI's that look the least sympathetic. ( and the term 'least sympathetic' is me being nice. It is an understatement to say the least).
From what I know and have heard, a good prosecutor would have enough ammo to cause a jury to become EXTREMELY unsympathetic to these two players.
JMO