The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[UKGuy]

Re PR fingerprints, did she have a everyday housekeeper? Not likely she emptied dishwasher, esp at a busy season like that. More likely she handled the bowl at a later time. Now knowing it's condensed milk (requires opening a can), and a huge serving, not a few pieces....would a kid do all that? Or just eat out of the plastic box in the frige?

GoodGurl,
Housekeeper yes, but it was vacation time, so she was absent. The bowl of pineapple plus milk might have been prepared earlier by Patsy, so explaining her prints on the bowl.

Knowing who opened the can of condensed milk, i.e. who, why, when, how, etc does not advance us very far, its just a detail. Whats more important we can link JonBenet and BR to the breakfast bar!

.

 

[Heymom]

It's as if Brendon read the first chapter of Chief Kolar's book and decided "THIS MAKES SENSE!" LOL

 

[TeaTime]

There is some evidence that might point toward the Ramseys. The ransom note needs explaining, for instance. Why they did not wake up when JB was taken from her bedroom (how close is her room to her parents?). Who's idea was it to ring the police since the ransom note specifically said not to under threat of death for JB.

But there is nothing connecting them to her killing - except theories - with next to no evidence.

I have already asked how it was that the parents stayed up for nearly 40 hours and no-one mentioned their condition at that time. People who think they did it, just don't want to look at these inconvenient flaws in telling the story. John and Patsy would have been paranoid Burke Ramsey would say something. Yet they sent him to a neighbors in the morning. Doesn't follow. Doesn't make sense. Having the narrow window as the only entry and exit. Why? Didn't the Ramsey house have any doors? This is ignored. The pineapple. I couldn't make out the picture on it's own. Looked like apples or pear pieces to me. Burke was looking intently at that pic trying to figure it out, not avoiding it. Burke was not with us watching the show prior to seeing the pic having it all explained to him by the forensics people. Like we were. Get it? We were manipulated as viewers. We were set up on that. Remember the woman said he was suspicious about it, and why did he avoid saying it was THE PINEAPPLES. Straight after we had it all explained to us. If I were him, I wouldn't have clearly known what the pic was either. They were dishonestly tricking the viewer. jmo

Just stuff like that.

There is more that points to the Ramseys as being accessories after the fact than any imagined intruder theory. As for the ransom note, consider this:

NEVER in the history of the FBI has there been a kidnapping/ransom note where the RN was prepared on site; and
NEVER in the history of the FBI has there been a kidnapping/ransom note where the victim was found murdered at the abduction site.

Contemplate these facts and then add that the note was on PR's pad, with her pen, in her penmanship. Add all of the other oddities explained by experts on kidnapping and ransom crimes that can be found on this site and in books written by those in the know - too numerous to recount here - and if you conclude that an intruder wrote it, then you have just disregarded the evidence that exists.

You can bet that Burke was instructed to not speak about what happened and that the Whites, being normal and sensitive people would not interrogate him. The people the Ramseys were afraid to let Burke speak to were the investigators who would interrogate him with pertinent questions and hustling out of the house was the only way to prevent this. Burke has not spoken to LE since he was 11.

The pineapple is easy to recognize in the photo. You must have had a blurred photo image. Burke shut down when he saw it after uttering an very odd "oh". He kneeled on his hands on the chair at the sight of the bowl of pineapple. He wasn't trying to figure out what was in the bowl, he was like a deer caught in the headlights and could not think of how to get out of his predicament. It was truly a "gotcha", "holy *****" moment. Spin it all you like but the sight of the pineapple triggered discomfort because the pineapple has some significance to HIM.

There was no trickery. The series presented facts in an orderly, organized fashion and logically concluded with Burke being the big player.

 

[reintarnation]

Sooo... I've just watched the A&E show and while it was very pro Ramsey and didn't convince me of their innocence, the argument that the strangulation came first was interesting, particularly the scratch marks? I think it makes sense that she may have been strangled first and then hit on the head by one of the family to put her out of her misery ( I know that sounds awful but can't think of another way to word it)

Autopsy report lists the cause of death as "asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma." Since this conclusion references two injuries that would have proven fatal but does not place them in chronological order, this has been an area open to debate.

IMO, the wording suggests that the strangulation was the actual cause of death, and that is supported by the noted petechial hemorrhaging of the eyes and eye lids (classic indicator of death via strangulation). This is also supported by the internal bleeding of her brain into her skull (heart still pumping), and the amount of that bleeding has led experts to estimate that JBR died roughly 45 -120 minutes after the head blow (expert opinions on this timeframe vary greatly).

This alone does not provide a sequence of events. For example, JBR could have been in the process of being strangled when the head blow was inflicted. However, there are no scratch marks around the neck ligature indicating that she struggled. There are small marks that many have speculated to be fingernail scratches, but the autopsy report lists them as additional petechial hemorrhages, and they do not match with the longer scratch marks that one expects to see in such an event.

One could argue that JBR was restrained by the wrists or some other fashion and therefore was not able to struggle against the ligature as would be expected. However, the wrist bindings were noted to be loose enough for the ME to put his finger between the cord and JBR with no problem, and the ME was able to slip them off her wrists without untying them. The ligatures were also found over top of JBR's sleeves, and there were no ligature marks on her wrists. This means that she could not have been completely restrained by the wrist ligatures, and it reasonably follows that she was unconscious at the time of strangulation.

Still, even if she was unconscious when strangled, does that mean she had already suffered the blow to the head? In the opinion of many credible experts, yes. Per the autopsy report, JBR's blood ethanol and drug screens were negative, so she was not sedated. A stun gun jolt does not knock a person out, and it has been summarily proven that the abrasions on JBR's body were not caused by a stun gun. So barring the introduction of new evidence, there is at this point no forensic explanation for her to not struggle against the strangulation unless the head blow occurred first.

In the A&E documentary and others, Lou Smit claims that the head blow couldn't have come first because "the blow to the head would have been so massive, it's unlikely that she would have been able to struggle" and "that lack of bleeding from the head wound indicates she was near death from strangulation before she was hit." The head blow was massive, and it would have knocked her out cold, but it wasn't massive enough that it perforated her scalp. Smit's observation about head wound bleeding is speculative and does not match the autopsy findings - perhaps he is referring to external bleeding and ignoring the rest. We also have to keep in mind that use of a stun gun is critical to Smit's theory that the head blow was the death blow, and the stun gun argument has been scientifically disproved (the distance between the marks does not align with a stun gun, stun gun injuries create burns and not abrasions, stun gun marks on a conscious victim are not small and perfectly shaped due to the victim's body moving when the jolt is delivered, stun guns cause extreme physical pain and deliver electric energy to the body as opposed to causing the victim to become unconscious, and the manufacturer of the stun gun reported to be used has gone on record stating that there is no way the marks on JBR's body were caused by a stun gun).

None of this points one way or another as far as Intruder versus Ramseys, but it does do two important things:
(1) Makes it nearly impossible to scientifically support the idea that the head blow came last.
(2) Indicates that the wrist ligatures were staged as they served no functional purpose.

 

[Tadpole12]

Burke isn't just any kid...

I read a little about anxiety at a (SI/ED) forum,
some posts about uncontrolable smiling.
Anxiety is a terrible affliction,
not just the physiological response
during an episode
but many suffer from
a negative playback loop
inside their mind.
Has to be terrible to suffer from this
as an adolescent.

Will have to read more about this,
onset in children.

 

[HarmonyE.]

HarmonyE,
BBM: presumably JonBenet never touched the bowl, it was fetched and served by BR, so explaining his fingerprints. Anyway it need not be an exclusive snack, both BR and JonBenet might have snacked pineapple, otherwise why bother with the serving bowl. Incidentally JonBenet was too small to reach into the freezer and fetch the pineapple.

Regardless of the details, JonBenet snacked pineapple and BR's prints are on the glass and bowl thereby linking both to the breakfast bar!

.

Understood. I was responding to the comment that perhaps only JonBenet was eating the pineapple.

 

[GoodGurl]

GoodGurl,
Housekeeper yes, but it was vacation time, so she was absent. The bowl of pineapple plus milk might have been prepared earlier by Patsy, so explaining her prints on the bowl.

Knowing who opened the can of condensed milk, i.e. who, why, when, how, etc does not advance us very far, its just a detail. Whats more important we can link JonBenet and BR to the breakfast bar!

.

OK, I get that. I just kind of always wondered if even with all of PR denials that maybe it was part of the staging. BR could have touched it then too, but it was in the aftermath. I've always thought they were a bit surprised that cops stayed at the house, and the attention in general, and that they intended to remove her body from the house themselves at some point. JR became convinced that plan wouldn't work, and just went and "found" her.

 

[zencompass]

Thank you for your post Tadpole12!

Here is an article concerning anxiety as a symptom of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in children:

https://www.adaa.org/living-with-anxiety/children/childhood-anxiety-disorders

This paragraph from the above link is very interesting to me:

"Children most at risk for PTSD are those who directly witnessed a traumatic event, who suffered directly (such as injury or the death of a parent), had mental health problems before the event, and who lack a strong support network. Violence at home also increases a child’s risk of developing PTSD after a traumatic event."

 

[TeaTime]

Then he/she hit her when she struggled free.

The kidnapper is not going to get the money now. The ransom note now becomes a misdirect. Keep in mind I said the person knew the Ramseys. He/she would want to remain unknown then, and the misdirects (lets assume "foreign faction" is a misdirect) in the ransom note suggest this, yes? Example: the person is connected to the beauty pageant social clique - so they misdirect by addressing it to John instead of Patsy, and talking about his business. Just a theory.

It is a theory that has been hashed and rehashed and debunked with evidence.

 

[angelainwi]

Tonight - on TLC - JonBenet: An American Murder Mystery.

Isn't this the one originally aired on ID?

 

[YouWho]

It's as if Brendon read the first chapter of Chief Kolar's book and decided "THIS MAKES SENSE!" LOL

:laughing: Oh dear that's a good one.

A little o/t, but I am reminded of when John ran for state representative in MI in 2004, and he and Patsy gave an interview to Deborah Norville.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5498466/n...lle_tonight/t/john-ramsey-runs-public-office/

DN is surprised he wants to run for office, and JR says, " Well, Deborah, life goes on.* You‘ve got to keep moving forward.". Which reminded me of statements BR made.

But that's not what really grabbed my attention. It was these statements:

John says, "I‘m very confident.* But, at the point they tell me, look, we have exhausted everything and there‘s no more we can do, then I will believe there is no more they can do.* But I think they‘re going to—I think they‘re going to get the guy."

Patsy says, "I am very optimistic.* Until the day that they tell me they have done everything and they cannot find the killer, then I will give up.* But, until that day, I will not give up.* The DNA has been so instrumental in releasing people who were exonerated—erroneously."

First of all, her last sentence doesn't even make sense. Exonerated people erroneously? I would think she meant to say convicted people erroneously?

Anyway, my point is.... like, really? It sounds to me like THEY are waiting for the day the police give up and stop looking at THEM.

..just my thoughts

 

[Tadpole12]

You're right. I didn't notice that before. The part closer to the bottom of her hand looks like it was carved into the skin more than drawn. When I tried cleaning up the photo and enhancing it in Photoshop I can almost see where her skin had inflammation.....like when you scratch yourself if it's deep enough the skin turns reddish....

Can you post that image?

 

[zencompass]

I've been wondering (quite a bit!) about the two hours which were edited out of the CBS series.

Does anyone think they may have tested train tracks and their connectors to see whether they could have caused the marks and whether
connectors match up to the distance between the two marks?

 

[Annapurna]

Its honestly kind of funny to have all these freshman IDI's showing up. Little do they know many of us have been bickering for literally years! :slapfight: lol

There is plenty of good evidence of familial involvement. For example, the fiber evidence. PR's sweater fibers were found in the following important locations: in her paint tote (which according to her own statement she moved to the basement weeks earlier...not in the same sweater), inside the knot that was tied around JBR's neck and on the sticky side of the duct tape that was on JBR's mouth.

PR & BR's DNA was found on the ligature. It was also found on the nightgown. Now you can say, well it was all over the house! To which I reply: yes it was, but then why isn't JR's DNA on these objects as well? If you want to say the DNA is irrelevant then you can't really pick and choose which DNA is valuable. All or none. :moo:

I could keep going, but honestly doing all the work for someone who probably won't listen anyways isn't how I feel like spending my time.

 

[TTF14]

:laughing: Oh dear that's a good one.

A little o/t, but I am reminded of when John ran for state representative in MI in 2004, and he and Patsy gave an interview to Deborah Norville.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5498466/n...lle_tonight/t/john-ramsey-runs-public-office/

DN is surprised he wants to run for office, and JR says, " Well, Deborah, life goes on.* You‘ve got to keep moving forward.". Which reminded me of statements BR made.

But that's not what really grabbed my attention. It was these statements:

John says, "I‘m very confident.* But, at the point they tell me, look, we have exhausted everything and there‘s no more we can do, then I will believe there is no more they can do.* But I think they‘re going to—I think they‘re going to get the guy."

Patsy says, "I am very optimistic.* Until the day that they tell me they have done everything and they cannot find the killer, then I will give up.* But, until that day, I will not give up.* The DNA has been so instrumental in releasing people who were exonerated—erroneously."

First of all, her last sentence doesn't even make sense. Exonerated people erroneously? I would think she meant to say convicted people erroneously?

Anyway, my point is.... like, really? It sounds to me like THEY are waiting for the day the police give up and stop looking at THEM.

..just my thoughts

I've never ever heard a parent of a missing or murdered child say that they'd EVER give up.

 

[YouWho]

I read a little about anxiety at a (SI/ED) forum,
some posts about uncontrolable smiling.
Anxiety is a terrible affliction,
not just the physiological response
during an episode
but many suffer from
a negative playback loop
inside their mind.
Has to be terrible to suffer from this
as an adolescent.

Will have to read more about this,
onset in children.

JR's psychology intrigues me. He is clearly paranoid. Enemies are out there and they're out to get him. Like he's being persecuted. Powerful attorneys are in his social circle and on speed dial too it would appear.

That's why I was surprised he ran for office in 2004 (R). Politics can be dirty. I only wish he'd won so we'd have him on the record more and get a more insight into his world view. I cannot read his 'Suffering' book, no way can I stomach that religious-invoking opinion piece, no way... I prefer to get a factual look, and make up my own mind.

 

[zencompass]

Hi Annapurna,

It is because of kind and compassionate people, such as yourself, who have kept the memory of that sweet little girl, JonBenet, who loved life in the forefront.

Keeping the case of JonBenet's murder in public discourse serves not only as a tribute to her memory but to the fact that people around the world care about
what happened to this little six year-old almost twenty years ago.

Hopefully this public discourse will lead to more facts and evidence coming out.

More transparency is needed in this case and if L.W. does sue CBS then perhaps there will finally be justice and answers for JonBenet.

Kudos to each and every poster on these threads over the years . You are all serving the memory of JonBenet and you remind me of
my faith in humanity.

 

[TheOtherChristina]

There is no evidence there wasn't an intruder.

What proof do you have that John Ramsey received $118,000 bonus that year that ties into the ransom note?

Nothing in your post is evidence, circumstantial or otherwise tying any of them directly to her killing. I'm talking the standard DNA, blood...evidence like that.

I can't possibly address every misleading comment you've made, but let's start with this one.

"On a related front, the $118,000 ransom demanded for the return of JonBenet Ramsey matches a bonus check recently received by her father, John Ramsey, from his company, according to CNN sources."
http://www.cnn.com/US/9701/21/ramsey.update/index.html

The Ramseys themselves suggested the connection, so it's a strange item to choose to dispute.

Any number of statements you've made can be similarly debunked, but I'm not going to invest any more time into doing the work for you, because you've demonstrated a lack of willingness to consider the evidence. If you'd sincerely like to know more, I recommend reading Schiller, Thomas, and Kolar's books on the case with an open mind, and then coming back with your thoughts.

 

[Heymom]

I've been wondering (quite a bit!) about the two hours which were edited out of the CBS series.

Does anyone think they may have tested train tracks and their connectors to see whether they could have caused the marks and whether
connectors match up to the distance between the two marks?

There are photos in Kolar's book - the marks from the train track match up perfectly with the marks on JBR's back. It's easy to imagine a scenario where the head blow has taken place, JBR has collapsed to the floor, BR tries to rouse her unsuccessfully, and grabs the nearest object he can think of to poke her with, to see if she's faking it. Or, he actually enjoyed digging the points into his unconscious sister. We may never know the answer to that question.

 

[singularity]

I haven't kept up with the JBR threads here at Websleuths in forever.
It wasn't until I started hearing the rumblings of Docuseries/Movies, etc that would be coming up for the 20th anniversary of JBR's death that I ventured back to these forums.
Great to see so many familiar names from years ago!

I am going to share a theory that's been in my brain for several years.
Watching the TV shows about JBR murder have only intensified my thoughts.

What I need from all of you Websleuth JBR experts is to de-bunk my thoughts so that I can move on with more realistic theories about JBR's murder.

Being it's been years since I've followed the JBR threads I have forgotten so many names of the key players.
Outside of PR and JR, who would you think would be the closest person to BR?
Someone he trusted.....teen or adult.....to open up to, vent to, discuss things happening around him/behind closed doors of the mansion that he didn't like, etc.

What I'm getting at..........and please don't roll your eyes too hard at my idea of what happened. I know it's way out there.

What if PR and JR are actually innocent of knowing that JBR was dead in the WC?
What if everything happened that night as it's been speculated here on the board and on the 2-part Docustory.

JBR comes down stairs, and in a bratty neener, neener style grabs pineapple out of BR's bowl and runs. From the latest information coming out, sounds like BR had some anger/rage inssues.
A chase ensues with JBR running down toward the basement and BR following close behind.
BR would have already been caught up to JBR in this chase but he stopped to grab the longest-reach and heaviest object he could to 'pay back' JBR for touching and taking his pineapple.


Everything happens down in the basement/wine cellar as speculated EXCEPT.....
What if JR and PR stayed asleep?
What if this some say 'sneaky' almost 10 year old saw what he did, realized it was more serious than just konking his sister hard over the head for taking his pineapple and after some panic, makes a phone call to a teen or adult he knows will help him out of this situation?
Who was considered BR's sort of mentor back then? Someone who would be able to come over and BR unlock and open the front door for that person or persons?
One or two people rushing over in the wee hours of the morning to 'help' BR out of this predicament? They probably got to the mansion without knowing just how serious the situation was.

Yes, JR found JBR rather quickly when told to go check the house again. Could it be that while all the commotion of people in the house was going on, JR was quietly going through things in his mind and a light bulb moment happened where he realized there was only one correct answer to who did this?
Maybe he saw the bowl of pineapple.....anything could have triggered his light bulb moment and at that moment he realized one of BR's favorite hiding places or places where he liked to be alone was in the wine cellar and JR took it from there.

Having a lot of teens around me daily, ages 14 - 19, I can see a couple teens or even young adults concocting the whole ransom scenario......and especially composing that RN with all the movie quote references.

I just can't get the idea out of my head that all the staging looks more like it was done by one or two older teens or young adults than it would be done by parents who supposedly loved that little girl.

I'm not saying the parents didn't do all that staging but I am hoping you all can help me de-bunk my idea about BR calling someone to the home to help him with the mess he got himself into.

If you've read my short novel here, thank you!

That's a very unconventional theory. Nothing wrong with unconventional theories.....you just don't see em very often anymore. Even though I am not IDI(friendly or otherwise), one of the more interesting yet odd theories was the old one about the possibility of a squatter living in the house for god knows how long and he/she did something Christmas night. As interesting and odd as it was, it could be discounted simply on the fact that like all IDI theories, it cant take into account the personal nature of the crime and even more importantly, what went on the next day. I doubt John is going to rearrange all sorts of items down in the basement for some unknown squatter.

As far as your theory goes, who can this mysterious third party be? Not the first theory to allow the possibility of a third party as over the years Fleet, Stine, and even Santa have been in this role but considering the possibility of someone coming over specifically to help Burke without either parent knowing or being involved is a new one to me.....or I simply forgot about it over time.

Is it the college age babysitter whose name escapes me? Doug Stine? JAR....however unlikely? Someone unknown?

Main problem I have with the theory is the too simplistic way how it all goes down and its unfortunate the case is now going in this direction. Now it all boils down to Burke bludgeoning her almost immediately after she grabs a piece of pineapple out of his bowl. Second problem is that this unknown person is able to write a complex ransom note that is very personal and is basically mocking John. How and why would this person write such a note?

Its interesting though. Other than the 9 year old boy's instantaneous bludgeoning over fruit snacks, at least you're thinking outside the box a bit. The case really needed this type of thinking in the early years from those involved......even taking into account some implausible scenarios to help weed out certain things and it might even help them make sense out of certain things where there's little method to the madness.

Like I said, any alternate theories suffer from the general IDI theories.....the personal nature of the crime cannot be explained away or ignored just because those in the IDI camp wish it didn't exist. The case is now morphing into this to a certain extent with BDI.....must ignore many pieces of the puzzle so a certain handful of pieces can fit together to pretend its solved and no more questions exist.

The day I start ignoring most of the puzzle is the day I stop paying any attention to the case.