The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[ThinkHard]

ThinkHard,
Not really since the available forensic evidence delineates what they could prove, but I'll bet they thought Patsy played a major role?

I guess my thinking was, if they had way more evidence then we ever will, and still can't implicate PR anymore heavily over JR, then perhaps that's a clue to Burke having a far heavier hand in all this?

 

[UKGuy]

I guess my thinking was, if they had way more evidence then we ever will, and still can't implicate PR anymore heavily over JR, then perhaps that's a clue to Burke having a far heavier hand in all this?

ThinkHard,
That's my current thinking, and its the opposite of most of the present theories.


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[ThinkHard]

ThinkHard,
Why bother with all that if all you want is a ligature, not saying you are wrong just that it appears quite complex behavior?

.

Well if you built it ahead of time rather then that night.....I could see putting that level of detail in. Nylon lines fray quickly and they are slippery, so melting the end with a lighter would be a simple thing he would know how to do if he tinkered with his knotting skills. Boys are always rigging up things, and weapons are a favorite (though garrotes are unusual). It's also possible it wasn't originally rigged as a garrote, but just as a way to swing around a stick on a rope. Kids love doing stupid stuff like that.

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise,
If this is the UK case its a shocking one. The mother explicitly staged and covered for the father, and not for the first time. Do you think because Patsy accomplished whatever staging she did, including the RN, then as some of the True Bill charges suggest, e.g. neglect she was already aware of prior circumstances in which JonBenet had been assaulted?

.

It was the case of Ellie Butler and yes it was shocking.

With JB that's a hard one to answer. I think she knew BR had hit JB with the golf club in anger before. I don't think her answers in the 1998 interview concerning knowledge of prior vaginal intrusion were credible either. But I've yet to make up my mind on why the staging took place.

 

[ThinkHard]

I wonder if they saved that climbing line they took from the house, and if the ever thought to unfray it and and compare it to the smaller all white lines inside?

 

[UKGuy]

Well if you built it ahead of time rather then that night.....I could see putting that level of detail in. Nylon lines fray quickly and they are slippery, so melting the end with a lighter would be a simple thing he would know how to do if he tinkered with his knotting skills. Boys are always rigging up things, and weapons are a favorite (though garrotes are unusual). It's also possible it wasn't originally rigged as a garrote, but just as a way to swing around a stick on a rope. Kids love doing stupid stuff like that.

ThinkHard,
Possibly, one thing I've always wondered about, was why it was so long in length?


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[johnjay]

ThinkHard,
Why bother with all that if all you want is a ligature, not saying you are wrong just that it appears quite complex behavior?

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Well after checking out a few knot tying lessons for the hitch and half hitch knots, that stick and rope could have been for Burke's saling knot tying practice.

 

[ThinkHard]

ThinkHard,
Possibly, one thing I've always wondered about, was why it was so long in length?


.

I'm not sure what your asking?

 

[Tortoise]

Well if you built it ahead of time rather then that night.....I could see putting that level of detail in. Nylon lines fray quickly and they are slippery, so melting the end with a lighter would be a simple thing he would know how to do if he tinkered with his knotting skills. Boys are always rigging up things, and weapons are a favorite (though garrotes are unusual). It's also possible it wasn't originally rigged as a garrote, but just as a way to swing around a stick on a rope. Kids love doing stupid stuff like that.

That was the only end that was sealed though. All the others were left cut and frayed. To me it looks like that was the only end that was sealed because it came from the beginning of a new roll of cord.

 

[Tortoise]

ThinkHard,
Possibly, one thing I've always wondered about, was why it was so long in length?


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I could guess that this would be commensurate with John's arm span. I think JB was strangled before the paintbrush handle was added, it was added for drama.

 

[UKGuy]

It was the case of Ellie Butler and yes it was shocking.

With JB that's a hard one to answer. I think she knew BR had hit JB with the golf club in anger before. I don't think her answers in the 1998 interview concerning knowledge of prior vaginal intrusion were credible either. But I've yet to make up my mind on why the staging took place.

Tortoise,
The Ellie Butler case left the Grandparents devastated and the judge that awarded them custody: silence Well I'm thinking PR was pretty much aware what was going on, but ignored it all including advice from close friends?

.

 

[UKGuy]

I could guess that this would be commensurate with John's arm span. I think JB was strangled before the paintbrush handle was added, it was added for drama.

Tortoise,
Quite possible, its just not as nicely executed as it could be.

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[TeaTime]

I have read the majority of the media putting suspicion on the Ramseys.

As for co-operating, regardless of the Ramsey's innocence or guilt, generally speaking if you don't have a great alibi, and you are cliche suspect material (spouse, family member, neighbor, in the vicinity), you could be in big trouble. The Olympic Park bombing is a classic case. Richard Jewell couldn't have been any more accomodating to the authorities. And within a few days they were leaking to the press, and it was all over: Jewell, did it. I mean just look at the guy. He's weird. He's guilty...and so on and so forth. I'm sure the authorities have a bias to playing the percentages when looking at suspects. And once they get their hooks in, they are very determined and play hard, and they take a large proportion of the public with them. The only way they think you are co-operating is if you confess, and you can't do that if you are innocent. It destroyed Richard Jewell's life, anyway.

I appreciate that you continue to maintain a pro-Ramsey stance despite the overwhelming facts, statistics and evidence that works against that theory. All theories must have a solid basis and I would like for you to think of the following as you ruminate the mythological intruder theory ad nauseum:

1.) Never in the history of the FBI has there been a ransom/kidnapping where the ransom note was written at the scene of the abduction.

2.) Never in the history of the FBI has there been a ransom/kidnapping where the victim was found murdered at the scene of the abduction.

This should form the basis of any discussions you have in your head.

Then, add to this that there is no evidence of an intruder and that in 75%- 80% (?) of murdered child cases, the perp is a family member and even you must admit that it would be malfeasance for LE to not focus on the family first to eliminate them as suspects. All murder investigations start at the center, the family, and work outwards from there. This is standard procedure based on statistical information compiled after the investigations of thousands of murders. However, this family refused to cooperate with LE and avoided interviews until months after the murder and the CNN show and only after they had been provided with the official police reports by the DA.

You talk about Jewell. I will remind you of Klass, Lundsford, Va Damme and Walsh who understood that they were under the umbrella of suspicion, did not take offense at it and demanded that LE investigate them to the fullest so that the investigation would be focused on the real murderer. They all did this immediately and the perps were all caught, prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned.

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise,
Quite possible, its just not as nicely executed as it could be.

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Can you expand on that? I'm not sure what you mean by nicely.

 

[Heymom]

I appreciate that you continue to maintain a pro-Ramsey stance despite the overwhelming facts, statistics and evidence that works against that theory. All theories must have a solid basis and I would like for you to think of the following as you ruminate the mythological intruder theory ad nauseum:

1.) Never in the history of the FBI has there been a ransom/kidnapping where the ransom note was written at the scene of the abduction.

2.) Never in the history of the FBI has there been a ransom/kidnapping where the victim was found murdered at the scene of the abduction.

This should form the basis of any discussions you have in your head.

Then, add to this that there is no evidence of an intruder and that in 75%- 80% (?) of murdered child cases, the perp is a family member and even you must admit that it would be malfeasance for LE to not focus on the family first to eliminate them as suspects. All murder investigations start at the center, the family, and work outwards from there. This is standard procedure based on statistical information compiled after the investigations of thousands of murders. However, this family refused to cooperate with LE and avoided interviews until months after the murder and the CNN show and only after they had been provided with the official police reports by the DA.

You talk about Jewell. I will remind you of Klass, Lundsford, Va Damme and Walsh who understood that they were under the umbrella of suspicion, did not take offense at it and demanded that LE investigate them to the fullest so that the investigation would be focused on the real murderer. They all did this immediately and the perps were all caught, prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned.

Not to pick your post apart, but Adam Walsh's killer was never prosecuted. Ottis Toole confessed but could not be definitively linked to the crime & then he recanted his confession.

 

[madeleine]

I guess my thinking was, if they had way more evidence then we ever will, and still can't implicate PR anymore heavily over JR, then perhaps that's a clue to Burke having a far heavier hand in all this?

yep. Kolar told us that and the gj wrote murder one too so...

 

[Frigga]

I have searched high and low for my copy of Kolars book but can't find it- I'm going to have to order it again. I need to reread it with fresh eyes.

God bless James- he spearheaded this- thank god.

 

[No it's not]

ThinkHard,
Possibly, one thing I've always wondered about, was why it was so long in length?
.

I am not ThinkHard, but I can think hard..;--)

My theory on the cord length is that JBR was tied to something. Be it a chair, a hook in the wall, something that would keep her in place. I am even going so far to theorize, that BR may have tried to
"copy" the MYTWINN doll bindings on to JBR! He may have tried to make her "look like the doll" in the box she got for Christmas.

That's why I was asking during a chat, if there were any boxes left in the basement or in the garage, where they stored the Christmas trees. Not sure, if they were artificial or not.

Again, in my book she was tied to something, possibly at a higher point, than her head. She may have been tied to a hook in the wall while standing on a chair for example. There was a chair discussion I recall concerning the location of a chair. According to JR there was a chair in front of the train room door. He had to move it to access the door according to his statement. Awwww, here goes the intruder theory - once again..

-Nin

 

[UKGuy]

Can you expand on that? I'm not sure what you mean by nicely.

Tortoise,
Its a bit like the RN, overdone. Its as if the cord for the ligature had another purpose but was re purposed as a ligature?


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[Tortoise]

I'm slowly reading through John's 1998 interview. I've got to a part where he is talking about the kids having to leave their new toys to go to Charlevoix the day after Christmas. They had been to the White's all evening, and would be going to Charlevoix and then more or less straight to the Disney cruise, all in all about a week I'd guess.

I can see that as motivation for children to get up in the night to play with their presents.

[FONT=&quot]7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had a fairly busy[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 8 week and a half planned and we had talked about, I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9 talked about going up to the lake that day. You[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 know, briefly, we said before we left, do you want[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 to just go Christmas day. And I said, well, you[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 know, the kids had all their toys, and they need[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 to stay with their toys. And we had Christmas[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 dinner with the Whites there that night.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 So we knew there was going to be some volatility[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 about them being there that day, that night. And[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 certainly we were going to be there until the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 night before the boat trip, and then just for the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 evening. And then we were leaving early the next[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 morning.[/FONT]