The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[PrimeSuspect]

Give me one good reason why a grand jury would have charged Patsy and John with neglect leading to homicide if there had been an intruder. No parent could be charged with neglect unless their actions were purposefully negligent of a child's safety. If an intruder had come into that house through some kind of magic, there is no way it was either parent's fault.

John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey had not done enough to protect their daughter from someone else in the house who could hurt her. Only 4 people in that house.

A Boulder grand jury indictment in 1999 accused John and Patsy Ramsey of two counts each of child abuse resulting in death in connection to the first-degree murder of their 6-year-old daughter JonBenét, according to documents released Friday morning.

The charges didn’t directly accuse the Ramseys of killing their daughter. Instead they alleged that the parents permitted JonBenét to be placed in a dangerous situation that led to her death and it accused them of helping whoever killed the girl.The Ramseys were never officially indicted, however, because former District Attorney Alex Hunter refused to sign the documents and prosecute the Ramseys.

The documents were compiled long before new DNA evidence that led the Boulder district attorney to publicly exonerate the parents and apologize to them in 2008.

“The DNA was not available to the grand jury in 1999,” said Lin Wood, the Ramseys’ attorney. “What we have here is a release of a sliver of the evidence that the grand jury looked at and reviewed. It’s just based on incomplete evidence. “Denver defense attorney and legal analyst Dan Recht said the documents show the conflict within the grand jury.
.....

“In a sense, they seem to be classic compromise grand jury decision,” Recht said. “They can’t decide whether to indict on murder. They can’t decide not to indict at all. So they compromise in between.”

http://www.denverpost.com/2013/10/2...ed-parents-of-child-abuse-resulting-in-death/

It was never official and they made up their minds with incomplete evidence. I happen to agree with it, but that doesn't mean it's true. Where does Burke come into it?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

They heard only evidence from Kane. And a grand jury doesn't convict anyone. They just recommend more investigation

Very true!

 

[Advocate4]

I have to agree, Brendon is correct is saying there is 0 evidence proving the RDI. It is all pretty circumstantial. But, the blinders are definitely on there, which is why people are getting annoyed.

Up until the CBS, I did not believe BDI either because I always thought he was too young.

Just as a point, it's very common for most of the evidence in a court case to be "circumstantial", i.e., the type of evidence that does not directly prove that an individual committed the crime but is evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe the individual did commit the crime. If someone says "I saw him do it", and that person is known to be an honest person, that would be direct evidence. Under some circumstances, DNA can be direct evidence but it isn't always.

 

[CoolJ]

One thing that Jim Clemente said that I really liked was something to the effect of it being important to remember that it doesn't have to come down to two possibilities(IDI vs. RDI) , but that there are many possible shades in between. They came to the conclusion of BDI, which is obviously very possible and maybe the most probable. But there are still so many other possible narratives here that could include others in the home that night yet PR and JR were still lying about something. They could be covering for someone other than BR for who knows what reason.

Are there any prevelant theories out there that include a so called Intruder, but PR and/or JR still lying about what happened?

 

[SandyQLS]

Oh boy, do I agree with you on that one! I've looked at that picture, even at different angles and I couldn't describe what it was, definitely can not see pineapple. If this is all that hangs on Burke being the guilty party, no wonder this won't get anywhere.

I'm in the Patsy/John did it camp and the other covered but even still, I'm open to other theories but Burke, no way! Nothing in that documentary convinced me he did anything out of the ordinary for a 9/10 yr old kid.

I was appalled by the producers of this documentary using a child to re-enact the bashing of a little girls head! They will stop at nothing for ratings, and they had the audacity to critique Burke demonstrating how he thought a murder might be committed, how will the child who acted it out demonstrate the same thing in the future?! Potential murderer? Ohh, please! :facepalm: JMO

BBM. Thank you for bringing this up. I thought that BR's demonstration was child-like and appropriate, especially for a boy or more physical sort of girl, that children do act things out physically where a teen or adult would not. I was more interested in his first guess that JBR might have been stabbed with a knife (his first physical demonstration), and then perhaps she was hit with a hammer (the second guess). To me this may be an indication that BR does in fact not know how JBR was killed, in particular the knife/stabbing guess which seems to come from his imagination. JMO If a child is not told reasonable details they will imagine things far worse, and BR was caught up in a coverup created by his parents, left to imagine any manner of death. It is intriguing that he assumes the death of JBR was violent and also caused by any weapon, as opposed to say suffocation, poisoning, left in the cold, or any other choice, since he was told "an intruder kidnapped her" IIRC by his parents. IDK - I cannot get a clear handle on BR.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

You can review the forum rules that explain the reason for all of that. As far as I have seen, no one who respectfully debates the case in accordance with the known evidence has ever been banned.

Because of the evidence that has been discussed in this forum in thousands of posts and for more than a decade, there are some things that are simply wasteful rehashing if debated again, which ruins the experience for those who have long followed the case and muddies the water for newer folks trying to find the truth. That doesn't mean you have to read all of that before you too can post, but it does mean you should fact check things before posting them as fact, and where you are unsure or can't find what you need to fact check, you should ask questions.

And in all fairness, this is a private website paid for by the individuals who own and operate it (with the help of ads of course). Just because it is free for us to use doesn't change that. It's not like other forums owned by a corporation with paid moderators, attorneys, and terms of service. The owners of this site are free to enforce whatever terms they please, and, IMO, they do so fairly.

The docu has opened up dialogue again though. Imo, there is no evidence against Burke which is the docu's opinion. JMO

 

[PrimeSuspect]

BBM. Thank you for bringing this up. I thought that BR's demonstration was child-like and appropriate, especially for a boy or more physical sort of girl, that children do act things out physically where a teen or adult would not. I was more interested in his first guess that JBR might have been stabbed with a knife (his first physical demonstration), and then perhaps she was hit with a hammer (the second guess). To me this may be an indication that BR does in fact not know how JBR was killed, in particular the knife/stabbing guess which seems to come from his imagination. JMO If a child is not told reasonable details they will imagine things far worse, and BR was caught up in a coverup created by his parents, left to imagine any manner of death. It is intriguing that he assumes the death of JBR was violent and also caused by any weapon, as opposed to say suffocation, poisoning, left in the cold, or any other choice, since he was told "an intruder kidnapped her" IIRC by his parents. IDK - I cannot get a clear handle on BR.

I so agree, Burke acted it out as a child as he IMAGINED what happened to JonBenet, and those comparing him to a adult are misguided, imo.

 

[No it's not]

The autopsy report lists those marks on her neck as petechial hemorrhages that occur when strangulation results in death. They are not fingernail scratches or any other type of abrasion.

But yes, she was wearing a chain necklace with a cross. It was found hanging loosely on her neck and not caught up in the cord that was still embedded in her neck.

The golden necklace was indeed caught up in the cord on the anterior of her neck. The cross and a part (lateral) of the necklace can be seen hanging loosely in a crime-scene photograph. I am not going to post the photograph. It can be located by google "Jonbenet Ramsey ligature".

-Nin

 

[SandyQLS]

CR,

9
5

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1995xmasnewsletter.txt

96

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1996xmasnewsletter.txt


********************
maglight packaging

https://www.google.ca/search?q=magl...ved=0ahUKEwiC5MPbn6TPAhXK6CYKHSojCG0Q_AUIBigB

Thanks! BR was in the age appropriate grade both years, but JBR started school one year behind (born August 1990). I suppose you longtime sleuths know why.

 

[YouWho]

This is my first post. Apologies in advance for its length. OK, here goes. I will try to keep it to: the pineapple, the flashlight, the connection between the two, and maybe a little bit about the train tracks. Listen carefully!

Pineapple: First off, BR said in one interview that he did like pineapple. Maybe not as much as JB, but he did say he liked it. So that could set the stage for a conflict over the pineapple. I think a lot of people get hung up on BR's age. How could a kid do something like this? And I also think some people are looking for some grand motive for JB's death, and to them the pineapple isn't suitably grand. But kids have arguments over the darndest things. I remember my sister used to count the number of ravioli I received and pitch a fit if she received fewer. But the reason I am convinced that something so normally insignificant as pineapple played a major role was all in BR's reaction to the pineapple photo. If I showed you a picture of a hat on a table and asked you, "What is that?", I'm sure you would also have a minor panic attack instead of saying, "It's a hat, you idiot!" Now you can almost explain away BR's first interview, as it was probably pure chaos for two straight weeks with no time to reflect. But 1.5 years later, when you've gone over that night in your head a million times, you know where it all started. And that is not to say that the pineapple was the be-all and end-all, for it had moved down JB's digestive tract. So I doubt it led to an immediate head blow. But it could have been Step 1, whether it had been the first annoying thing that JB did to BR, or whether it had been the thing that BR used to lure JB.

Flashlight: Unless they are both lying, which let's face it, is possible, both JR and BR admitted to using a flashlight that night. There is no evidence of a second flashlight. So why were there no prints on the flashlight and its batteries? I know I always put on driving gloves to install batteries, but I thought I was the only weirdo who did that. So it was cleaned because of its connection to the crime. Simple enough. It wasn't used either time JR went to search the house, which is maybe a little strange, but then again, why would you clean a murder weapon only to put your fingerprints on it? I believe it was left in the kitchen because the kitchen is not where the head blow occurred, which also fits with my theory that the head blow did not immediately occur after whatever happened with the pineapple. I think if you knew the flashlight was involved enough to clean it off, then why would you leave it right where the incident happened? You would move it. Also, as it relates to the pineapple, why would someone anal/freaked out enough to clean the batteries of a flashlight and then place it, in the kitchen area, not also dispose of or clean the bowl of pineapple, in the kitchen area, if that person knew its significance? Because that person didn't. BR freaked out about the pineapple in interviews, not PR or JR, because they didn't realize how important it was. That is why PR or JR did not clean or get rid of that bowl of pineapple. BDI, JR/PR cleaned up what they thought was important.

Train tracks: Briefly, when I saw the two marks on JB's body, they did not seem to be from a gentle poke. They seem to also indicate aggression, not unlike someone pooping all over your food. Aggressive! Now I could be mistaken, but one of those two marks seemed to be a little larger than the other. When the train track theory was presented I remember thinking to myself, "If BR used a curved piece of track the marks would appear different from one another. Different amount of force/different angle/different depth would seem to create such a difference between the marks." Maybe I'm overthinking that one.

Cheers, MO,
Bill

I like it. I like all of it. Re: the lack of prints on the flashlight, I think it was A. James Kohler's Reddit AMA where he said the flashlight handle was a ribbed/cross-hatched surface and not conducive to retrieving prints from. I had not remembered that from his book. But the clean batts.. that seems intentional.

 

[Deleted member 172065]

Why the CBS show persuaded me. Basically I do trust in the specialist opinions. They have tools/knowledge we don't have.
1) there wasn't a intruder because the foliage wasn't disturbed and the cobweb was still there.
2) the ransom letter is too unusual for a small foreign faction to write. It would take over 20 minutes to write.
3) the flashlight indeed seemed to be the murder weapon. And It was wiped down... !
4) so who in the house did it? BR seems to have the most emotional problems...leaving feces in JBR's room. The bowl pic was from his house, and it was common he ate pineapple--his favorite. But he had no idea what was in the bowl. He deflected the subject to the ice tea. Behavioral specialists guessed right.
Oh yes, and letting your son stay alone in his bedroom when there could be a kidnapper/murderer loose in the house? No way!

 

[ZsaZsa]

In the CBS program, BR is being interviewed by LE and is asked about his normal bedtime routine at that time. He is asked if he normally has a snack before bed and if so what would his mother be likely to give him- he says she would give him fruit. LE says Some mothers might give cookies or cake - would your mother give you something like that? BR says No, she would likely give fruit. LE asks "What is your favorite fruit? BR responds "Pineapple."

 

[Deleted member 172065]

It's very shocking that the DA would not let investigators get phone records. Dr Spritz, also, said he wasn't allowed in the house. People clammed up. And the DA did not let people know that the grand jury indicted the Ramsey's.
Just because all the cover-ups, I believe the case should be reopened.

 

[mauidreemn]

Why the CBS show persuaded me. Basically I do trust in the specialist opinions. They have tools/knowledge we don't have.
1) there wasn't a intruder because the foliage wasn't disturbed and the cobweb was still there.
2) the ransom letter is too unusual for a small foreign faction to write. It would take over 20 minutes to write.
3) the flashlight indeed seemed to be the murder weapon. And It was wiped down... !
4) so who in the house did it? BR seems to have the most emotional problems...leaving feces in JBR's room. The bowl pic was from his house, and it was common he ate pineapple--his favorite. But he had no idea what was in the bowl. He deflected the subject to the ice tea. Behavioral specialists guessed right.
Oh yes, and letting your son stay alone in his bedroom when there could be a kidnapper/murderer loose in the house? No way!

Is it possible for an intruder to get in the house a different way other than the basement window? What is the proof that Burke had emotional problems? Where is the proof that Burke left feces in Jonbenet's room?

 

[YouWho]

I have a couple questions that someone here might have insight into. What grade was Burke in school?

Also did the Ramseys send out an annual Christmas letter? JR's company hit a billion dollars, JonBenet pageants, PR's 40th birthday party in advance, etc. What would have been said about Burke? What types of things did he do besides Nintendo?

Oh I noticed today that Burke is now on Wikipedia . I didn't see that before is it because as some said appearing on DP made him.a public figure for the first time?

Thanks in advance if anyone can elaborate.

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1995xmasnewsletter.txt

Patsy is quite the wordsmith. Interesting.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

John and Patsy Ramsey 1995 Christmas Newsletter

Twas a week before Christmas with a million things to do, And wouldn't you
know it, Mom came down with the flu. Fortunately the gifts were all gotten and
under the tree, But the Christmas cards didn't make it - as you can well see! So
we'll take this opportunity to extend the Holiday Cheer. And be the first to wish
you a Healthy & Happy New Year!

We've finally given in to the computerized form letter! What better way to
keep the high-tech industry in business!? Speaking of business, John and
Access are going great guns. Europe has been successfully conquered with
offices in every country except Norway! Mexico & Canada opened too. (Can
you believe this grew out of our garage on Northridge?) Anyway, John was
rewarded by parent company, Lockheed-Martin, by being elected an office
of the company.

All work and no play make John a dull boy, so he leaves plenty of time for the
latter. This year John, John Andrew, and Melinda took the crew of the Miss
America (our sailing sloop) to victories in the NOOD Races in Chicago and a
4th place division finish of the Chicago-Mackinac Island Race. Seventy-knot
winds in the Mac race really made the finish line look pretty good! John Andrew
is a freshman at CU here in Boulder, and Melinda is due to complete her Nursing
Degree from MCG [Medical College of Georgia] in Augusta next June.

Burke is busy in his third grade year at a new school named High Peaks. It is a
Core Knowledge school which accesses high academics and personal achievement.
He loves it! He continues with Boy Scouting and the piano. This winter he is the
tallest guy on his basketball team. Summer on Charlevoix was spent taking golf
and sailing lessons each day. Burke is quite the sailor!

JonBenet too had a busy summer in Charlevoix. She was crowned Little Miss
Charlevoix in a pageant in June and spent the rest of the summer riding in convertibles
in various home-town parades throughout Michigan. She performed a patriotic tap &
song for her talent. She and Burke both won ribbons in several decorated bicycle
contests. In October, JonBenet become Little Miss Colorado, she rode on the
"Good Ship Lollipop" float during the Boulder Christmas parade. (Grandpa Paugh
built the float!) She waved and sang all along the parade route! She also takes piano,
violin, and drama classes. Busy little Pre-kindergartener![sic] (Busy Mom hauling
her around!)

I continue to have good check-ups at NIH in Bethesda, MD. God has surely blessed
me with energy and the ability to return to raising a family. I thank Him every morning
when I wake up and see the sunrise reflecting on the Flatirons over Boulder. Please
continue to keep us in your prayers.

Hope your Christmas was merry and here's to 1996! By the time you read this we'll be
cheering on the Buffs at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas and then on to the Fiesta Bowl in
Phoenix! Thanks to everyone who visited us in Colorado or Charlevoix this year.
Please come see us in 1996! Love to you all!

The Ramseys

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Why would anyone lie about this? They were only going to be there for a day or two. We wouldn't pack for a short trip on our private plane.

Patsy herself said she packed for it ... once they got back from the party.

 

[mauidreemn]

Patsy herself said she packed for it ... once they got back from the party.

Exactly but it wasn't suitcases full of stuff. The suitcases were for when they got back from Michigan and flew to Florida for the Disney cruise.

 

[carolinea]

Is it possible for an intruder to get in the house a different way other than the basement window? What is the proof that Burke had emotional problems? Where is the proof that Burke left feces in Jonbenet's room?

No other doors or windows appeared to have been opened or disturbed, according to JR and the police who walked through. Is it possible? Sure. It doesn't seem probable to me, though, given all the other information that has been collected.

Proof of Burke's emotional problems--bed-wetting way past the potty-training phase (a problem that JBR also had). Child protective services told Dr. Bernhard, the child psychologist who initially interviewed Burke, that he had ongoing bed-wetting problems.

The housekeeper told the police about the feces in Jonbenet's bed. The police found feces in JB's Christmas chocolates. Kolar's book, I believe, talks about Burke smearing feces on the walls. Someone with more knowledge can surely point to the interview (or whatever) that the info came from.

I feel it necessary to point out that soiling issues like this are classic signs of child abuse, and both JBR and BR displayed them.

 

[mauidreemn]

No other doors or windows appeared to have been opened or disturbed, according to JR and the police who walked through. Is it possible? Sure. It doesn't seem probable to me, though, given all the other information that has been collected.

Proof of Burke's emotional problems--bed-wetting way past the potty-training phase (a problem that JBR also had). Child protective services told Dr. Bernhard, the child psychologist who initially interviewed Burke, that he had ongoing bed-wetting problems.

The housekeeper told the police about the feces in Jonbenet's bed. The police found feces in JB's Christmas chocolates. Kolar's book, I believe, talks about Burke smearing feces on the walls. Someone with more knowledge can surely point to the interview (or whatever) that the info came from.

I feel it necessary to point out that soiling issues like this are classic signs of child abuse, and both JBR and BR displayed them.

ALL of the Ramsey children, even the older kids, had Bedwetting issues at that age. It can be genetic.

As a child abuse and neglect investigator and case manager, toilet inf issues are NOT direct evidence of sexual abuse. If you believe that, then you pop a squat at every Target and Walmart and berate every parent that buys the larger size pull-ups.

 

[fedfan4life]

Most don't post here because we know the side this site is on. We are afraid we will be banned as many have been. That is the biggest travesty. I'm not a troll and I have no idea who did what. But I know that many, many are afraid to post on this site regarding the Jonbenet case

Oh, that is pure foolishness. Tricia and the moderators go out of their way to accommodate folks such as yourself who come on here and state your unfounded opinions. Shoddy evidence, my big fat butt.