The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[Sunny1378]

Any chance the Ramsey's are not covering for a family member but perhaps an illicit lover/relationship?

 

[PositiveLight]

O/T My nurse MIL gets them. Somehow, none of the rest of the family got them from her. That being said, for a nurse, she's super relaxed about swapping germs within the household, sharing food, reusing unwashed glasses waiting to be washed in the dishwasher....

She once had a cold sore while visiting us, and asked my daughter for a sip from her soda bottle. I had previously explained to my daughter how they spread, so I had to subtly fire my super-powered-eye-glare-of-death at my daughter, which successfully conveyed "Just give the dang soda to Lola! Don't drink after her! I'll buy you a new one!" :laughing:

I know that look you describe!!! :laughing:My kids know it too! hahaha
O/T kinda but one of the reasons I retired was due to contracting MRSA from one of my patients. And I was VERYYYYY careful! I battled it for a year the first time. Spent several months on a picc line. I am so OCD about everything I touch and who I touch or am around now. I have constant flare ups of MRSA and my immune system is so beat down I have to be careful being around others. Just getting the flu resulted in a 3 month battle with pneumonia. I can say though that none of my family members have tested positive as a carrier of MRSA much less an active infection. I am seriously OCD about it. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy! This is one of the reasons I retired. I couldn't imagine even taking care of someone else knowing I am a carrier and could potentially infect another person. Do you know what my infectious disease doctor said when I asked her about working with MRSA? "Well.... you don't HAVE to tell your patients you are a carrier..." That was the last time I saw her too. WTH. She's an infectious disease doctor and she's telling me to not tell others. That, to me, is a horrible thing to do! I take my oath as a nurse seriously and there is no way in hell I would put anyone else at risk.
Sorry for the o/t but I had to respond. The look you describe I learned from my mama! :laughing:

 

[johnjay]

Any chance the Ramsey's are not covering for a family member but perhaps an illicit lover/relationship?

I say about as much chance as one of Santa's Elves sneaking in through the basement window without disturbing the spider web and ...

 

[PositiveLight]

Any chance the Ramsey's are not covering for a family member but perhaps an illicit lover/relationship?

Such as? Any ideas? Just curious on what your going towards. I've questioned the idea that maybe PR was having men over while JR was away. In my humble opinion.
He was supposedly away a lot and I wonder if PR got lonely. Could have led to someone having contact with JBR and potential abusing her. It has crossed my mind too. Just no evidence of it. But it could be one of the many possibilities.

ETA: Howdy and welcome btw!!! :seeya::seeya:

 

[TeaTime]

Respectfully, your post compiled three people's histories combined to come up with three falls. The five injuries I listed all happened to one person in 26 months and the last injury killed her.

Just showing examples that I witnessed where these kinds of injuries can occur from a fall, with or without hands/arms extended for protection. The issue WAS how could they occur from slips and falls and some were arguing that she would have put out her arms/hands to break her fall. But, thanks for taking it to an unnecessary and unrelated discussion to make a point that was obvious.

 

[PositiveLight]

while we are sharing pics, I want to share a pic or two that was previously shared by another poster here that I found very telling.
This looks like a bite mark to me or a pinch mark. The reason I say a pinch is my mama used to pinch us on the inside of our arms when we were misbehaving. It looked a lot like this too.

looks newer here too.

Looks to be healing maybe in this one?

On the inner portion of the arm she has up. You can see some type of injury.
Not sure which order they occurred in, heck it could all be from one pageant! They do so many different looks for each pageant now a days.

 

[PositiveLight]

Just showing examples that I witnessed where these kinds of injuries can occur from a fall, with or without hands/arms extended for protection. The issue WAS how could they occur from slips and falls and some were arguing that she would have put out her arms/hands to break her fall. But, thanks for taking it to an unnecessary and unrelated discussion to make a point that was obvious.

I know that once I had wanted to go outside to witness an eclipse of some sort (never saw it btw *cough cough*) but I had set my phone alarm to go off when it was supposed to be reaching it's maximum point and my alarm goes off and I run outside, down the steps, towards a big open area and woke up about an hour later. That's all I remembered.
What happened was that I unknowingly ran into the end of a chaise lounge we had in the yard that is metal and caught the corner of the arm rest square in the middle of my chest. Knocked me out cold. I apparently even tried to stop the fall because my palms of my hands were all scratched up. I laid there for about two more hours before I could even muster the strength to crawl (literally) back into the house. I had a MASSIVE bruise on my sternum too. I probably should have went to the ER but didn't out of sheer embarrassment. Oh yeah I bit my lip and scratched my nose and forehead really bad. As a nurse I KNOW I should have went to the ER. But I was home alone for those few days and just didn't ask for help. I survived but honestly I was very lucky it wasn't much worse. As I've said before though, I am extremely accident prone. This incident however, was the one and only time I didn't seek help. I honestly think if I had, my hubby would have been arrested even though he wasn't anywhere near me at the time. The injuries were very suspicious if an outsider was looking at it.

 

[SandyQLS]

Yes i did read that post earlier. And thankyou for the clarification. Maybe the answer to your question as to why someone would go up two flights of steps to get the Swiss Army knife if the paring knife didn't work is because they had plenty of time for the staging before the 911 call? The housekeeper thought out of everyone in the house that PR would most likely of found the knife she had hidden. Just like the RN and to the perp. taking their time in practising and then writing it fully. I think it was determined to be at least approx. 20 minutes to write it from the CBS series. So no one was in a great hurry that night to do anything it seems.

Is it possible that PR was actually responsible for JBR's death, but told JR that it must have been BR to ensure JR's assistance in staging and coverup? Did PR do some of the staging on her own, like retrieving the Swiss army knife, and some of it with JR? The Bonita Papers say that both PR and JR had acquired legal counsel within 24 hours of JBR's death, and it was later when BR was provided with his own legal counsel. If BDI and PR and/or JR knew that, would they not have also immediately provided BR with legal counsel along with themselves? JMO I find it odd that the parents sought legal counsel and separately, odd as in each of them "guilty of something" and not simply the need for advice or help with the media or parents together regarding their son.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...uot-Unedited-Notes-From-Ramsey-Case-Documents

"...On December 27, 24 hours after the discovery of JonBenet's body, Det. Arndt went to the Fernies' residence for a second meeting with John and Patsy, but was confronted by Mike Bynum, a lawyer and family friend. Arndt was informed that attorneys had been retained to speak for the Ramseys and that John and Patsy would answer no further questions from the Boulder police.

The next morning official confirmation came from the Denver law firm of Haddon, Morgan & Foreman that they had been retained to represent John, and that Boulder attorneys Patrick Burke and Patrick Furman had been retained to represent Patsy. When the Boulder police subsequently attempted to interview John's former wife, it was discovered that an attorney had also been hired to represent her, and eventually even Burke would get his own legal counsel. ..."

 

[Magdalyn]

I tripped, fell forward and although my hands were extended, planted my forehead smack into the sharp corner of a metal furniture leg, requiring stitches by a plastic surgeon. My nephew, at about 3 years of age, slipped, fell forward and busted his chin on the opened and down door of the dishwasher as it was being loaded, requiring stitches by a plastic surgeon. My niece did a face plant after getting tangled in a jump rope, scrapes on nose - no doctor needed.

I don't think JBR's prior injuries are from anything sinister, such as being abused. As for her other doctor visits, they seem to be just normal childhood germ issues.

(snipped)

Respectfully, your post compiled three people's histories combined to come up with three falls. The five injuries I listed all happened to one person in 26 months and the last injury killed her.

Just showing examples that I witnessed where these kinds of injuries can occur from a fall, with or without hands/arms extended for protection. The issue WAS how could they occur from slips and falls and some were arguing that she would have put out her arms/hands to break her fall. But, thanks for taking it to an unnecessary and unrelated discussion to make a point that was obvious.

I'm not sure how debating whether her specific injuries, in her case, appear to be from abuse, is unnecessary and unrelated. I'm not sure how my pointing out the difference between your supporting examples and Jonbenet's, for the sake of discussion was 'taking it to and unnecessary and unrelated discussion'.

There was zero snark in my post, only respectfully disagreeing with your post with my debate point, so I'm not sure what I did to earn the "But, thanks for taking it to an unnecessary and unrelated discussion to make a point that was obvious" snark? :waitasec:

 

[Sphinx]

You make some very good points. I think this may further point to BR. He would like to use his favourite knife, one that was familiar. Like you, I think Patsy might have just used scissors, unless part of the staging was to use a knife, and make it look more like a male intruder. IMO

Who do you believe this may have been?

It would have to be someone who knows the army knife is there.

But if it was PR wouldn't she just grabbed scissors from sewing supplies in the basement? Why look for a kitchen knife to do the job at all? and then why seek out a knife two floors up, when I'm sure a sharp objection could have been found closer.

 

[ukrberserker23]

One misconception keeps popping up here. It was in the CBS special also. I went back to Candy rose website, and it stated on there that police found a cobweb on the grating, not the window frame. It said it was found to be a funnel web spider web, and they said that type of spider doesn't make webs after November. Obvious the grate was never moved. Just more Lou Smit ********.

 

[SandyQLS]

Respectfully snipped from otg's post:

We now know the 10/94 note was not the result of an accident, but was 7 year-old Burke hitting his 4 year-old sister in the face with a golf club.

[And I know kids can be clumsy. Jonebenet appears very poised, graceful, and non-clumsy, IMO]

But if one reviewed the medical records of a grown woman who died as a victim of a violent homicide, and they noticed that she came in 4 times in the last 2 years with reports of being "accidentally hit in the face with a golf club" and "falling and landing on her nose", and "tripping and hitting her head above her left eye", and "bent nail back in another fall"...

Woman who dies of trauma to the head had reported 3 other instances of head trauma in the last 2 years. Wouldn't that raise flags that the woman may have been the victim of domestic violence, and died by those same hands?

Incidentally, as a child, my daughter once fell at our neighbor's house and broke 2 fingers (bent backwards) trying to break her fall. ER. Weeks of hand casts and hand specialists. As a newly walking toddler, my son fell into the coffee table and bloodied his upper lip/upper gums/nose. We took him in for a medical exam and x-rays to make sure there was no facial/dental damage that needed to be addressed. Years and years later, same son fainted freshman year in HS and busted open his chin. When you fall hard enough you need to call/see the doctor, the common injuries are to fingers/wrists/forearms (when you try to break your fall, those bones take all your body weight and bend back or break).....and chin/mouth/nose/...the part of your face that first makes contact with the ground. How to you trip and only hit above your eye? How do you land on only your nose and only hurt your nose?

I'm having a hard time picturing a child falling while conscious, with two hands and arms available to break her fall 'landing on her nose'. And after landing on her nose (soft part of face) having no other facial or dental trauma to report. She went from an upright position to landing on her face, and only her nose took trauma? Later, she 'falls', and the one injury is above her left eye. How to you fall from standing and only injure above you eye? No other part of face bruised? No part of your upper body/fingers/hand/arm corresponding to the side of the face that took trauma was bruised, scraped, injured in any way?

Why do the Ramseys call the doctor to report every little cough and sneeze....yet when her face was bashed with a golf club (it left a scar, which means the skin was broken) it was not reported to their primary doctor? He had to ask where the scar came from months later when she came in for a check-up. And the only doctor they report taking her to see after having her face 'accidentally' split open by a golf club was a plastic surgeon? A week later? No concern on the day of the incident there may have been damage to the facial bones beneath the wound? Eye trauma?

Nope, just worried about surface appearance, it would seem. The story of their life.

Just curious. Anyone else in the Ramsey family get cold sores? Mom? Dad? They are caused by a herpes virus (and are contagious).

Good points. As to the golf club incident, JBR was not hit so hard that she suffered any serious injury, so that sounds like reasonable childhood accident. What is more likely - that BR was attacking his sister, or that PR was a child abuser? It certainly isn't BR's fault that JBR had not achieved the potty training expected of 4 year olds by age 6 1/2 and had vaginitis and rash issues from being soiled. Also in previously posts, JBR is seen with bruises on her inner upper arm (right?) in two different photos, two different bruise patterns. They look like fingertip pinch bruises from having her upper arm grabbed harshly. Who is most likely to grab a child by the upper arm so hard and long that bruises remain, BR or PR? Whose fingertips reach all the way around a small arm?

 

[Magdalyn]

Any chance the Ramsey's are not covering for a family member but perhaps an illicit lover/relationship?

Personally, I have a hard time imagining the 'wronged' spouse going to these great lengths to protect their cheating spouse and their murdering lover when their child turned up dead as a result. I'd think they'd rightfully and righteously throw the cheating spouse and murdering lover to the wolves, take their remaining living child, and move on. But maybe that's just me. :dunno:

 

[Magdalyn]

Good points. As to the golf club incident, JBR was not hit so hard that she suffered any serious injury, so that sounds like reasonable childhood accident. What is more likely - that BR was attacking his sister, or that PR was a child abuser? It certainly isn't BR's fault that JBR had not achieved the potty training expected of 4 year olds by age 6 1/2 and had vaginitis and rash issues from being soiled. Also in previously posts, JBR is seen with bruises on her inner upper arm (right?) in two different photos, two different bruise patterns. They look like fingertip pinch bruises from having her upper arm grabbed harshly. Who is most likely to grab a child by the upper arm so hard and long that bruises remain, BR or PR? Whose fingertips reach all the way around a small arm?

But didn't they both have toileting issues?

Is it possible Burke saw the way Patsy treated her (as outlined in your post) and he also felt free to mistreat her?

 

[TeaTime]

One misconception keeps popping up here. It was in the CBS special also. I went back to Candy rose website, and it stated on there that police found a cobweb on the grating, not the window frame. It said it was found to be a funnel web spider web, and they said that type of spider doesn't make webs after November. Obvious the grate was never moved. Just more Lou Smit ********.

I remember reading that the web was on the grate too but since I had never seen any photos of it, assumed the CBS special had it correct. Then the photo shown in the special matches how it was depicted in the show. So, it is confusing until we remember that either way, it remained undisturbed and hence, no intruder.

 

[Me66]

One misconception keeps popping up here. It was in the CBS special also. I went back to Candy rose website, and it stated on there that police found a cobweb on the grating, not the window frame. It said it was found to be a funnel web spider web, and they said that type of spider doesn't make webs after November. Obvious the grate was never moved. Just more Lou Smit ********.

 

[Magdalyn]

I feel like the one biggest thing the CBS special opened my eyes to was that not all the little circumstantial things discovered have to be directly related to what happened the night she died, and one person didn't have to be responsible for all the things that happened that night.

My son is taking a forensics course this year and they had been studying this case prior to the CBS show. When he saw it, he said, "We never really seriously considered Burke because he would have been too small to carry her down the stairs." Many people assumed whoever killed her did everything else (ransom, carried her to the basement, changed her panties, etc.)

Also, she may have been a victim of different things at different times, but only one of her victimizers killed her. Sexually abused by one person. Pinched on the inside of her arm by another. And received repeated head strikes when she angered yet a third person.

Also, mark me as a person who never had a pediatrician EVER ask me about sex/sexuality/appropriate behavior, and certainly not when I was under 6 years old! Same for a pediatrician asking MY children. Never happened. I'd have pulled them from the practice if a male pediatrician asked how my 5 year-old daughter's sexual education was coming along. I'm in a "That's a Red Flag!" camp. The only way Jonbenet's doctors questions/notes wouldn't completely squick me out is if he's asking because Patsy has expressed concern to him that Jonbenet was possibly being sexually abused. But then it would be hinky that that info is not included in the notes.

JMO!

 

[ukrberserker23]

I saw that picture too. Not sure if it was from police files, or one of the news docs that have been done. None of the documentaries were done until after the house was sold as far as I know. Either way, no one ever crawled through that window in December 1996.

 

[mauidreemn]

And Patsy also said she used desitin on her as she had irritation due to wiping issues.

Did the doctor ever claim Jonbenet had urinary tract infections?

 

[SandyQLS]

Same, kids fall ALL the time. Mine aren't particularly clumsy and they are still constantly covered in shin bruises etc. I am too and I'm an adult!

Given all the bad breath issues, I bet she had allergies and a ton of postnasal drip. Cold sores can be from a crap diet, I used to get them NONSTOP and then I started eating better and haven't had one since. Soda especially gave them to me and made one I had already much worse. There was just nothing in that list of doctor's visits that was particularly interesting or red flag-ish to me. Her 3 falls are six months apart each, not exactly concerning for a small child.

Interesting. I used to joke that I never had any skin on my knees until high school age, and I had knee scars long after. But that's the problem with JBR - in pageant photos, she lacks the typical childhood elbow and knee scrapes, but has those inner upper arm bruises, and then the list of face and head injuries we are discussing.