The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[CoreyRocks]

I wrote that adults know, or should know, that acute vaginal abuse does not secret previous chronic abuse. Acute damage, blood and fluids wiped from her inner thighs, highlight the previous abuse; not cloak it. Those great big pair of underwear are so clean that they were new but still a bit insulting b/c fluids were on them that did not match up with the sexual injuries.

That is the reason it appears, to me, that an aggresive BR is responsible for the acute vaginal intrusion, one last time, for old time's sake, perhaps. SBP

I feel BR is responsible for the chronic sexual abuse. :dunno: He injured her, made her cry and bleed when he inserted a broken stick into her private area. Can't say either parent did that or that scary garrote killing device.

BR is sneaky and perhaps a bit devious. A similar garrote was noted by the housekeeper as being seen in the basement. Apparently, she was keen to notate the children playing doctor under the covers. The permanent smile BR wore doesn't fool me. His appearance on DP Show, did him no favors.

If father and brother were molesting JonBenet, Patsy should have locked both males inside their rooms at night. One person did all of the heinous stuff. All 3 covered with lies and innuendos, is how I see it

Attached is a SS of JBRs bedroom as it looked for the Tour of Homes in regard to the pillows' placement. One bed pillow. with a little drop or two of her blood on the Beauty and the Beast pillowcase, was found at the foot end of her bed at the CS. JBR kept her PJs stored under her pillow until night time when they're needed as many are taught to do.

SS taken from Video credit goes to cynic

[video=dailymotion;x4t5yrf]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4t5yrf[/video]

What is SBP? Also what is BBM? Thanks.

 

[Tortoise]

Personally I do not think antisocial personality disorder fits Burke from stat we know of him. It's also interesting that the DSM criteria is slightly different then the who criteria.

You are relating this to Burke but my post was about John.

 

[ThinkHard]

TinaD,
I'm a proponent of what you suggest. What you miss is that the actual knotting can be post-hoc, or after the fact, this why the cord may have been re-purposed, i.e. to mask its original use?

From memory PR had to go upstairs to fetch long johns for JonBenet, or at least someone did, so why not pick up a pair of size-6 underwear?

.

The hair is ripped from her head and twisted around the outside of the knot, indicating the knot was already in place when she was straggled and couldnt have been tied after she was strangled. Just look, it's pretty aparent.

Which to me, still means it's entirely possible Butke just made it as a contraption he tinkered with at some time earlier. With the hair around the line the way it is, their is zero possibility the knot was tied after being around her neck.

Regarding the underwear, perhaps it was JBRwho had to have the right days undies on, and maybe it is true that as they were going to the whites the ss 12 was put on her because her others had been soiled previously. Sometimes kids can be weird about insisting on little things being just so like that. I mean kids ar bathe type to melt down if you don't cut their sand which in their preferred manner....so I can see a child insisting she had the right days panties on. And not even caring they are too big.

Perhaps when she bleed she wasn't wearing underwear or bottoms at all at the time and "cleanup" just involved wiping her down and pulling up her pants up. Just a thought.

The other thought could be that Patsy made a huge deal out of the right underwear and Burke new this. I can see a six year old just wanting the right undies and not caring about the size. I can see a father not noticing the size....but he also wouldn't think to put that specific pair on, as men often overlook stuff like that, and I don't get the impression JR tended to be the one who helped JBR get up and dressed and ready each day so is likely to be clueless over days of the week details or their size. So unless she was already wearing those, or unless Patsy handed them to JR I don't see him doing that on his own. Maybe he wiped her down and pulled them up but that's about it in my opinion.

 

[ThinkHard]

Ok so I just finished Koler's book and I want to point out a couple interesting things I read that jumped out at me. Koler as stated by him in the book wasn't going to present his entire theory of what he believed happened that night but he def was able to lead the reader to a scenario where he believed Burke was responsible for the head wound and stangulation. And eluded that BR was acting out sexually on JBR. He said the Ramsey's agreed to release medical records but there were some they wouldn't and they deserved an "island of privacy". He thought these were perhaps mental health records of BR. So what I found very interesting is that in JR's 1998 interview he states that he is taking medication prescribed by BR's Psychiatrist. Koler though it was odd he still saw one that long after JBR's death since he supposedly hadn't witnessed anything or it hadn't seemed to bother him in the first place. That's not what caught my attention, what did was that he was specifically seeing a psychiatrist not a psychologist/therapist. I'm in no way a professional but I have myself seen both kinds of professionals as has my son. Psychiatrists are medical doctors who diagnose, treat, and prescribe medicine for psychiatric disorders whether it be depression anxiety whatever, they are not therapists. Which if BR needed to be seeing someone to deal with the loss of his sister it would generally be a child psychologist/therapists who ha experience working with children in grief. I want to know would Burke need to see a psychiatrist if there were no mental health/psychiatric diagnosis?

The only reason you go to a psychiatrist over a psychologist is if you need medication. Period.

It could be anything though, from ADHD, to Bipolar, to anxiety, to depression etc.....it doesn't mean it was neccasarily something as severe as antisocial personality disorder.

 

[ThinkHard]

I thought that John carried a sleepingJB up to her bed in the clothes she wore at the White's party and just put her in the bed, removing only her shoes. So that would have given Patsy a reason to go up and re-dress her for bed and have her go potty, which in turn would have woken her up and she didn't want to go back to bed. Also, I don't recall that she was wearing longjohns at FW's party. She would have been all dressed up. I think the larger underwear and longjohns were put on her because she wet the bottoms she had on. And she ended up going downstairs by her brother while Patsy changed the bedding, putting the wet sheets in the laundry and clean dry sheets on the bed.Their maid had said the sheets on the bed the day JB was found are not the sheets she put on the bed on the 23rd. She was off on the 24th. The cops found those sheets in the washer, I believe. I also don't believe the kids went down the basement that night because of Christmas presents (there were none down there) or to play. I think the recent investigators were right about JB finding her brother with the milk/pineapple in the kitchen.

There were unwrapped presents in the basement though, not to mention their was a playroom down there with Burkes train set. So to think the kids went down their own their own, is hardly out of the question in my opinion.

Also I think there is a very very small chance she was hit in the head over the pineapple, the timing for where it ended up in her intestines just doesnt match that proposed scenario at all in my mind.

 

[ThinkHard]

Did BR say the word psycho when he was being interviewed at 9 or on Dr P ? If it was at 9, i think that is a strange word for a child to use, where would he have heard that ?

I was quite close to Burkes age at the time of this crime, and in my opinion I just think people make WAY to big of an issue out of his use of that word. It was a common word kids used back then. I'm sure the words "oh my god my mom is going psycho" Came out of my mouth and my friends mouth more then once.

The difference is we would use it to say things like "if I ever did that my mom would go psycho", "if I don't clean my room my moms gonna go all psycho" psycho/crazy both used interchangeabley and common. But not words that had much weight or meaning to them, they were just descriptive words for when someone was getting mad. And usually used casually.

The difference when Burke uses it, is that because I don't think the word carries much weight, it is a very apathetic thing to say in such a serious situation.

 

[ThinkHard]

I agree, from what I've seen I don't think it fits. Based solely on my observations (as a total layman), I see inappropriate affect, marked immaturity, and stunted empathy. I don't think we know nearly enough about him as an adult to float any diagnoses. He's a total puzzle to me.

I do understand why he provokes strong empathy in many people, though. His mannerisms make him seem childlike and vulnerable, and his strangeness is perhaps more pitiable than it is off-putting. Also, the brevity of his answers on Dr Phil makes it easy to envision a thoughtful but troubled person under that inscrutable exterior.

I wonder what's going on under that surface.

I know why he provokes empathy in me. It's because I have worked with a lot of "Burkes". And I've worked with a lot of families who lived in denial or would make jokes their son was just preparing for a life in prison. Meanwhile I have this angry, frustrated, sad, and unhappy child on my hands who just wants so desperately to be loved, accepted, and understood at least by his own family. Parents who no matter how much I pushed would refuse to take their child to be evaluated.

So as an educator it's my job to help this child, even if the parents aren't ready to hear it. The child still needs you now. Not later. So every problem I faced, I observed and observed and observed, I read everything I could possibly get my hands on, regarding whatever subject was in front of me amassing a huge library of books on every child development and psychopathology stuff imaginable. I'd create new materials just for that child's learning style, I'd work on patients, and self confidence, and delayed gratification.....and no matter what the issue was I would figure it out, because I wasn't gonna wait around for the parents to get on board when their child was suffering now.

I have been blessed with a gift for both understanding children easily and gaining their trust almost instantaneously, so I do what I can with it, and the children that always always tugged at my heart strings the most are the ones that have challenged me the most. So yes when I look at Burke it's hard to not think of him as that lost little boy.

 

[PositiveLight]

Wow what a fantastic site, I'm so glad I found it. I'm a first time poster so I apologize if I ramble a little bit. It took me days to get through this thread but it was worth it. I watched the CBS doc and thought it was very good. I believe that Burke did the strangulation as well as the head wound. I think it's hard to believe for some people that he's capable of something like that but I don't. My uncle (dads brother) is Robert Petrick, there's a thread devoted to him from 05. It's sometimes referred to as the "Google murder" he was one of the first people where internet searches were used to help convict. He had been charged with murdering his wife. He reported her missing and they found her body in a lake wrapped in a blanket secured with chains. My father was given up for adoption as an infant having always been told by my gma that she did not even know anything about his bio family. A few years ago she revealed she actually did and tasked me with finding them. Well I did and was shocked to find out who my Uncle was. I also found my aunt. I have corresponded with my Uncle in prison he is an arrogant sociopath. My aunt relayed a story of coming home from school one day and finding their other sister in a closet wrapped in a blanket secured with belts, she said Robert had done it. I'm sorry I know that I have gotten of topic I just completely understand how something like this could happen in a family any kind of family. It's been theorized that my father was put up for adoption because of the dysfunction and clear psychiatric issues that run in our family. I am halfway through Koler's book, very informational. I think that Burke being responsible ties most things together, and I really think the GJ indictments said a lot.

Welcome Ashley! I'm so sorry that happened to your family! I can't imagine how it must have felt finding that out. I'm so glad your daddy was removed to a better environment! Looking forward to your posts! Again, welcome!

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[ThinkHard]

DeDee,


Sure is devious. On DP's show he has been coached to give yes/no answers, and smile always. BBM: source?

His answers are in contrast to his Degree major, i.e. Computer Science, which requires the use of logic, so BR knows how to offer a reasoned response, and that's what I expected when watching DP?

Notice how he gives himself away, i.e. the mask slips, when he gives long sentence replies.

His comments about JonBenet flaunting, were wow, and saying his Mom went psycho is off the wall and IMO represents intentional exaggeration, i.e. staging. I might expect My Mom was loud, screaming, upset, shouting for JonBenet, whatever?

Psycho sounds more like I did something wrong and Mom was like Psycho

.

The logic needed to get a job in IT, and verbal communication skills needed for a successful interview are two completely different things, completely different parts of the brain are used, and you cannot compare a skill in one and assume there is skill in the other. Or that lack of one is lack of the other. Expressive language skills, have nothing to do with what is going on in someone brain.

It seems Burke lacks expressive verbal language skills and self awareness, and therefor I don't think we can say with certainty that his language is intentionally deceptive.

 

[Heymom]

The hair is ripped from her head and twisted around the outside of the knot, indicating the knot was already in place when she was straggled and couldnt have been tied after she was strangled. Just look, it's pretty aparent.
View attachment 102313
Which to me, still means it's entirely possible Butke just made it as a contraption he tinkered with at some time earlier. With the hair around the line the way it is, their is zero possibility the knot was tied after being around her neck.

Regarding the underwear, perhaps it was JBRwho had to have the right days undies on, and maybe it is true that as they were going to the whites the ss 12 was put on her because her others had been soiled previously. Sometimes kids can be weird about insisting on little things being just so like that. I mean kids ar bathe type to melt down if you don't cut their sand which in their preferred manner....so I can see a child insisting she had the right days panties on. And not even caring they are too big.

Perhaps when she bleed she wasn't wearing underwear or bottoms at all at the time and "cleanup" just involved wiping her down and pulling up her pants up. Just a thought.

The other thought could be that Patsy made a huge deal out of the right underwear and Burke new this. I can see a six year old just wanting the right undies and not caring about the size. I can see a father not noticing the size....but he also wouldn't think to put that specific pair on, as men often overlook stuff like that, and I don't get the impression JR tended to be the one who helped JBR get up and dressed and ready each day so is likely to be clueless over days of the week details or their size. So unless she was already wearing those, or unless Patsy handed them to JR I don't see him doing that on his own. Maybe he wiped her down and pulled them up but that's about it in my opinion.

Do you know just how huge those panties were? There is ZERO chance that JonBenet wore those panties before she was dead. The package of size 12/14 Bloomies was never found in the house. Every other pair in JonBenet's drawer was size 4-6. LE found 15 pairs of panties but never found the package that would have contained the other huge panties. No, she never wore those but was redressed in them after her death. Who did that? We may never know.

Here is a thread from FFJ that describes the underwear and shows what they looked like on a model made from a child the same size as JonBenet. It's very educational.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...Underwear-on-JonBenet-Modeled-By-Six-Year-Old

 

[Heymom]

I have a stupid question, other than the photographer who was on the CBS special why are all the friends and neighbors still so unwilling to talk about this case ? Are they afraid of lawsuits? I would guess any and all statutes of limitations except murder have long run out so surely no one can claim they are afraid of being prosecuted?

Yes, lawsuits, and they can look at what Fleet and Priscilla White have gone through for just one example. Even after JR is gone, Burke and Lin Wood are still around, so don't expect anyone to open up, maybe ever.

 

[Heymom]

I was quite close to Burkes age at the time of this crime, and in my opinion I just think people make WAY to big of an issue out of his use of that word. It was a common word kids used back then. I'm sure the words "oh my god my mom is going psycho" Came out of my mouth and my friends mouth more then once.

The difference is we would use it to say things like "if I ever did that my mom would go psycho", "if I don't clean my room my moms gonna go all psycho" psycho/crazy both used interchangeabley and common. But not words that had much weight or meaning to them, they were just descriptive words for when someone was getting mad. And usually used casually.

The difference when Burke uses it, is that because I don't think the word carries much weight, it is a very apathetic thing to say in such a serious situation.

That is what people are remarking about. The way he says that phrase and describes his mother, it is as if he has done something very minor like leave his dirty clothes on the floor, and Patsy is <rolls eyes> "going psycho again." Maybe John tossed off that phrase, with a wink to Burke, when Patsy was upset or stressed about something, "Oh wow, there she goes again, going psycho..."

Yes, it is completely inappropriate to the situation. Apathetic, perhaps, but it almost seems like he is mocking her, as if he was watching this and enjoying it.

 

[ThinkHard]

Do you know just how huge those panties were? There is ZERO chance that JonBenet wore those panties before she was dead. The package of size 12/14 Bloomies was never found in the house. Every other pair in JonBenet's drawer was size 4-6. LE found 15 pairs of panties but never found the package that would have contained the other huge panties. No, she never wore those but was redressed in them after her death. Who did that? We may never know.

Here is a thread from FFJ that describes the underwear and shows what they looked like on a model made from a child the same size as JonBenet. It's very educational.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...Underwear-on-JonBenet-Modeled-By-Six-Year-Old

Yes I know the differences btw a sz 6 and a sz 12 underwear. I have washed, folded, and put away lots of laundry of both sizes. But undies even oversize ones will be bagging without fallinhg off, as undies are stretchy. Also she wore legging, not a dress, so obviously even if she did have them on, they wouldn't have fallen off.

Would it be ridiculous for her to be wearing them yes, but kids can be insistent and I can see it being a battle PR just chose not to get into.

Respectfully I disagree with your assessment that there is zero chance of it.

 

[ThinkHard]

That is what people are remarking about. The way he says that phrase and describes his mother, it is as if he has done something very minor like leave his dirty clothes on the floor, and Patsy is <rolls eyes> "going psycho again." Maybe John tossed off that phrase, with a wink to Burke, when Patsy was upset or stressed about something, "Oh wow, there she goes again, going psycho..."

Yes, it is completely inappropriate to the situation. Apathetic, perhaps, but it almost seems like he is mocking her, as if he was watching this and enjoying it.

That was not the only aspect of it people were remarking about. Some think the use of the word would be totally out of the realm for a normal child his age to do at all regardless of the situation, and some think it shows hatred to his mother.

 

[PositiveLight]

As far as the staging, who is responsible for the size 12 Wednesday Bloomies underwear? I have always wondered why they thought it was necessary for her to be wearing the Wed. panties even though they were obviously NOT the pair she had been wearing earlier to the party. Was that Patsy's idea, or John's? Who would have known that JonBenet had been wearing the Wed. panties to the White's party?

I also think both parents knew that Jonbenet was dead and they knew this before midnight on 12/25, thus her tombstone, even though the coroner wasn't sure. THEY were sure.

Exactly my thoughts regarding the headstone! They KNEW. Supposedly the panties were initially meant as a gift for another girl in the family. At some point, she just let JonBenet wear them. I think that is BS honestly. IIRC, all of her clean panties had poo stains. So I think when they were cleaning up her body, they just grabbed a pair of the new panties (maybe Burke was tasked to do this and he didn't realize when he went to grab panties, that they weren't JonBenet's.) If she was wearing a dress at the party at the White's, size 12 panties would have fallen off of her. I think Patsy and the kids were up that night while Patsy packed upstairs. The kids were playing with toys and I think Burke was eating pineapple and JonBenet stole a piece with her fingers. I feel this triggered a rage episode in Burke, that maybe had been brewing for days. I think he grabbed the flashlight off the counter and chased her downstairs. I think at this point, JonBenet was probably giggling and felt it was just play for them, but Burke had snapped and he hit her over the head. I think she went unconscious almost immediately and was brain dead. BuT I think she may have been having seizures or breathing loud (death rattle) and Burke grabbed the cord (garrote that may have held a box closed at some point) and strangled her to make her stop. He poked her with train tracks to see if she was still alive. Then one of two things happened. Either he came out of his rage state and realized she was lifeless and ran and told his mama OR he was going upstairs to sneak to bed past his mama packing and she noticed JonBenet wasn't with him and realized immediately something was wrong and found her. Then the staging occurred. I think then she either woke John and told him or he only figured it out as he read the ransom note. I don't think he was aware until later after Patsy had staged it. I think she was already becoming stiff with rigor and he couldn't reposition her. Maybe he wrapped her in the blanket or Patsy did. Which in my opinion showed remorse from someone. A stranger wouldn't have done that. The ransom note PR wrote and possibly JR dictated it IF he knew ahead of time. But the dramatic flair was all PR. MOO but this is where I'm at right now.

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[Tortoise]

What were pull ups like 20 years ago? Plain or patterned? I'm lucky enough to have never had to buy them for my own kids.

Mind you even if they were covered with cute designs I can still see a 6 year old being aware and feeling embarrassed to be seen wearing pull ups, especially if she knew her mother was exasperated with her bed wetting.

All the parents denials of it being a 'problem' only show me that it was anything but. I think it was a very sensitive issue and they planned to say it wasn't a problem.

I'm wondering if the extra large panties were intended to be worn by JonBenet on top of the pull ups, to help disguise the fact she was wearing a pull up. I do believe that Patsy bought the pull ups for the cruise boat, and possibly also for the journey to Michigan. Did the private plane have a toilet? I can see Patsy not wanting to deal with wet laundry/mattress, and having to ask for clean sheets. But this may have been a big deal for JonBenet - regressing to pull ups after a spell of not having to wear them and using a plastic mattress cover instead. She was starting to express her own will in relation to what she would wear and Patsy may have tried to soften this deal by giving her the panties she had bought for Jenny, to wear on top.

That brings us to ask why she would have been dressed in the Wednesday ones. Patsy may have had the pack of 7 panties nearby, ready for taking with them and ready for taking out the Thursday panties in the morning for their early departure, if JonBenet was going to wear a pull up on the flight. When JonBenet was dressed in the Wednesday panties it may have been a detail to make LE think she had been put to bed on Wednesday and snatched from her bed. It leads me to believe she hadn't been put to bed at all, because there would be no need for anyone to think otherwise. It is a deception to create a story which means it never happened.

 

[Heymom]

Yes I know the differences btw a sz 6 and a sz 12 underwear. I have washed, folded, and put away lots of laundry of both sizes. But undies even oversize ones will be bagging without fallinhg off, as undies are stretchy. Also she wore legging, not a dress, so obviously even if she did have them on, they wouldn't have fallen off.

Would it be ridiculous for her to be wearing them yes, but kids can be insistent and I can see it being a battle PR just chose not to get into.

Respectfully I disagree with your assessment that there is zero chance of it.

This photograph shows how absurd your premise is. JonBenet did NOT request to wear these panties. No little girl would. http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...t-Modeled-By-Six-Year-Old&p=107257#post107257

 

[johnjay]

That is what people are remarking about. The way he says that phrase and describes his mother, it is as if he has done something very minor like leave his dirty clothes on the floor, and Patsy is <rolls eyes> "going psycho again." Maybe John tossed off that phrase, with a wink to Burke, when Patsy was upset or stressed about something, "Oh wow, there she goes again, going psycho..."

Perhaps he was just pointing out, "we all go a little mad sometimes."

[video=youtube;Nv88ASiLmgk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv88ASiLmgk[/video]

Yes, it is completely inappropriate to the situation. Apathetic, perhaps, but it almost seems like he is mocking her, as if he was watching this and enjoying it.

 

[Heymom]

What were pull ups like 20 years ago? Plain or patterned? I'm lucky enough to have never had to buy them for my own kids.

Mind you even if they were covered with cute designs I can still see a 6 year old being aware and feeling embarrassed to be seen wearing pull ups, especially if she knew her mother was exasperated with her bed wetting.

All the parents denials of it being a 'problem' only show me that it was anything but. I think it was a very sensitive issue and they planned to say it wasn't a problem.

I'm wondering if the extra large panties were intended to be worn by JonBenet on top of the pull ups, to help disguise the fact she was wearing a pull up. I do believe that Patsy bought the pull ups for the cruise boat, and possibly also for the journey to Michigan. Did the private plane have a toilet? I can see Patsy not wanting to deal with wet laundry/mattress, and having to ask for clean sheets. But this may have been a big deal for JonBenet - regressing to pull ups after a spell of not having to wear them and using a plastic mattress cover instead. She was starting to express her own will in relation to what she would wear and Patsy may have tried to soften this deal by giving her the panties she had bought for Jenny, to wear on top.

That brings us to ask why she would have been dressed in the Wednesday ones. Patsy may have had the pack of 7 panties nearby, ready for taking with them and ready for taking out the Thursday panties in the morning for their early departure, if JonBenet was going to wear a pull up on the flight. When JonBenet was dressed in the Wednesday panties it may have been a detail to make LE think she had been put to bed on Wednesday and snatched from her bed. It leads me to believe she hadn't been put to bed at all, because there would be no need for anyone to think otherwise. It is a deception to create a story which means it never happened.

People have tossed that idea around, but why cover pullups with anything? JonBenet wasn't wearing them during the day, only at night, and no one would see her at night. The pullups aren't even that big, just a tiny bit larger/more padded than her regular underwear, so no need to put size 12-14 (!) underwear over them. Her regular sized panties would probably stretch over them just fine.

Why were the size 12-14 panties never found, but only given to LE 2 YEARS after the crime, "Found in some boxes" by the Ramsey investigators?? Sure it was not important! The size-4-6 Wednesday Bloomies that were NEVER FOUND, as well as the remaining size 12-14 underwear, were critical to solving this case. Too late!

 

[Tortoise]

People have tossed that idea around, but why cover pullups with anything? JonBenet wasn't wearing them during the day, only at night, and no one would see her at night. The pullups aren't even that big, just a tiny bit larger/more padded than her regular underwear, so no need to put size 12-14 (!) underwear over them. Her regular sized panties would probably stretch over them just fine.

Why were the size 12-14 panties never found, but only given to LE 2 YEARS after the crime, "Found in some boxes" by the Ramsey investigators?? Sure it was not important! The size-4-6 Wednesday Bloomies that were NEVER FOUND, as well as the remaining size 12-14 underwear, were critical to solving this case. Too late!

Well if you read my post it answers most of these questions.

Why put size 12/14? Because that is what Patsy already had in the house. If she had them in size 7/8 I think she would have used those instead. And it's a bribe - nice new ones, instead of your old stained ones. She knew JonBenet liked them.

Why were the size 12/14s never found? They were hidden because they had Patsy's prints on the carton. How to explain JonBenet's prints being missing from the carton if she had dressed herself. Maybe.