The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 11th -12th June - Trial Days 2 & 3 - Week 1

[Thinking]

A big thank you to all those of you giving twitter and news updates. Very much appreciated.

Hear hear - thank you so much everyone, it is really appreciated!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

How dare he wear a yellow tie !
First a wedding ring - that obviously meant nothing and now making a mockery of her memory wearing that tie

His handkerchief "for tears about Allison's sad suicide" is sunflower yellow too?
:dramaqueen:

 

[Amee]

Dr Milne agreed the Zoloft samples were taken from blood veins in the liver, tissues in the liver and from the stomach contents.

He agreed the blood level of the liver was 0.59mg per kg, in the liver was .5 mg per kg and within the stomach was 2.2mg per kg.

Mr Byrne: “They are all rather high readings are they not?’’

Dr Milne: “It’s hard to say much about the liver and the stomach due to the decomposition. The levels in the blood are higher than expected due to the level of decomposition…’’

Mr Byrne: “May I suggest that a dosage of one tablet (of Zoloft) per day of 100mg, her blood sertraline levels would not be expected to be higher than 0.05 and probably closer to 0.03?’’

Dr Milne: “I’m not exactly sure on specific dosing.’’

He agreed the drug sertraline, or Zoloft, metabolised or broke down to a substance known as “desmethyl sertraline’’.

Dr Milne said the sertraline levels found in the body would not go up but the level in the blood could increase depending on how the drug moved around in the body.

He agreed that the level of sertraline found in the liver could be reduced after death.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...his-wife-allison/story-fnihsrf2-1226950152264

 

[Jo04]

Dr Milne said there were no definite injuries on Allison's body but post mortem changes limited his examination.

He said the putrefaction and mummification decomposition changed the colour the skin which could obscure injuries.

Dr Milner said there could also be head injuries where insects or animals had eaten to the soft tissue skin.

He said insects were attracted to the face area so the soft tissue decomposition could be purely insect activity or the site of an injury.

Dr Milne said the soft tissue damage to the chin was atypical for insects.

"It's likely there was some sort of injury there," he said.

"That's an injury that could have occurred before death or after death."

Dr Milne said putrefaction was a normal decomposition process where the body goes moist, the tissues go soft and the body changes colour.

He said mummification was a little different, occurring when there is a drier environment.

Dr Milne said Allison's body showed signs of both, with some parts on the mud and other parts exposed.

http://www.qt.com.au/news/gerard-baden-clays-wife-lover-apart/2285637/

Let me see if I'm understanding this. Her body both showed putrefaction and mummification. So, she could've had open wounds where the insect and animal activity was. Which was mainly around her head and face and arms. Now her body was also in a dry environment to receive mummification which means her body wasn't in the water. Sorry about the content



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[they'll get you]

I'm stuck in the office today, so have this running beside me. Makes it very hard to concentrate on the other type of work I'm supposed to be doing...!

That's OK Doc your patients can wait :scared:

Just close the door and prioritise.

 

[DrWatson]

Let me see if I'm understanding this. Her body both showed putrefaction and mummification. So, she could've had open wounds where the insect and animal activity was. Which was mainly around her head and face and arms. Now her body was also in a dry environment to receive mummification which means her body wasn't in the water. Sorry about the content

Yes - the mummification would have been in any areas that were "high and dry" at all times, while the putrefaction and "wet" decomposition would have been in the areas that were either in the mud, or that got wet with each high tide.

 

[itsthevibe]

Dr Milne said there were no definite injuries on Allison's body but post mortem changes limited his examination.

He said the putrefaction and mummification decomposition changed the colour the skin which could obscure injuries.

Dr Milner said there could also be head injuries where insects or animals had eaten to the soft tissue skin.

He said insects were attracted to the face area so the soft tissue decomposition could be purely insect activity or the site of an injury.

Dr Milne said the soft tissue damage to the chin was atypical for insects.

"It's likely there was some sort of injury there," he said.
"That's an injury that could have occurred before death or after death."
Dr Milne said putrefaction was a normal decomposition process where the body goes moist, the tissues go soft and the body changes colour.

He said mummification was a little different, occurring when there is a drier environment.

Dr Milne said Allison's body showed signs of both, with some parts on the mud and other parts exposed.

http://www.qt.com.au/news/gerard-baden-clays-wife-lover-apart/2285637/

So, a possilbe injury to her chin, plus some sort of bruising or injury on left side of her chest, and left shin. And a chipped tooth.

The shin could have been a big scrape as she was dragged into or out of the car, or as he dragged her down under the bridge. The chest the same I suspect. As for the chin, not sure. Possibly the same cause. Both on left side which would be consistent with dragging in a certain way over difficult objects or terrain.

Chipped tooth could have happened during removal and disposal (sounds so callous - but it was) but way back when we were discussing cause of death, I'm sure I read something that said smothering can cause chipped teeth. However the tooth that was chipped was an eye tooth, and eye teeth are quite strong and possibly harder to chip then a front tooth, also because of their position.

If I was a juror, my conclusion of this would be, from everything I heard, that higher levels of Sertraline were to be expected due to decomposition and concentration of the levels. Also that there were no bone breakages so she wasn't thrown over the bridge and didn't jump.

At the time of her death I believe the area where she was placed would have been quite dry. While parts of it might get wet with higher tides, it wouldnt be the deep, soft mud which would break a fall. Not at that time anyway. I think with the heavy rains after that time the whole area got muddier and muddier as the levels rose considerably and the rain became quite relentless and that is where the problems came in for people retrieving the body. But these were not the conditions on the night she was murdered.

So - so far, nothing to indicate suicide in my book and indications that she was dragged where she was found, therefore - murdered.

 

[Thinking]

Alioop or other can maybe explain random ordering of witnesses today? Scientific followed by defence- friendly witnesses?

Hi WTH I'm not sure about the order, but I don't think they were necessarily defence friendly? From what I've read these witnesses described Allison as a mother who loved and nurtured her children (so likely would never leave them by choice), had dreams for the future (ballet school) despite suffering depression at significant times in her life due to specific circumstances (post natal, husband having affair) and was happy and chatty on the final morning of her life. Maybe I'm focussing too much on the positives but that is how I read it anyway.

 

[DrWatson]

Dr Milne agreed the Zoloft samples were taken from blood veins in the liver, tissues in the liver and from the stomach contents.

He agreed the blood level of the liver was 0.59mg per kg, in the liver was .5 mg per kg and within the stomach was 2.2mg per kg.

Mr Byrne: “They are all rather high readings are they not?’’

Dr Milne: “It’s hard to say much about the liver and the stomach due to the decomposition. The levels in the blood are higher than expected due to the level of decomposition…’’

Mr Byrne: “May I suggest that a dosage of one tablet (of Zoloft) per day of 100mg, her blood sertraline levels would not be expected to be higher than 0.05 and probably closer to 0.03?’’

Dr Milne: “I’m not exactly sure on specific dosing.’’

He agreed the drug sertraline, or Zoloft, metabolised or broke down to a substance known as “desmethyl sertraline’’.

Dr Milne said the sertraline levels found in the body would not go up but the level in the blood could increase depending on how the drug moved around in the body.

He agreed that the level of sertraline found in the liver could be reduced after death.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...his-wife-allison/story-fnihsrf2-1226950152264

That entire quote is very misleading. They're talking at cross-purposes, and Nathan Milne isn't being clear. He (Milne) is talking about the levels found in the liver, both liver tissue and liver blood. Byrne QC is referring to blood levels as would normally be measured by a peripheral blood sample taken from, eg the vein in front of the elbow, or a leg vein.

They are completely different things.

I wonder if the prosecution will put Rob Hoskins, the other pathologist, on the stand? He was the one who had that information about liver concentrations etc that blew the suicide theory out of the water for the bail application. If they DO put him up as a prosecution witness, he should be able to demolish that whole overdose idea again.

 

[Jo04]

Hi WTH I'm not sure about the order, but I don't think they were necessarily defence friendly? From what I've read these witnesses described Allison as a mother who loved and nurtured her children (so likely would never leave them by choice), had dreams for the future (ballet school) despite suffering depression at significant times in her life due to specific circumstances (post natal, husband having affair) and was happy and chatty on the final morning of her life. Maybe I'm focussing too much on the positives but that is how I read it anyway.

I agree. She loved her children. In my opinion and own life when thoughts of suicide edged in I edged it out because of my children. And she was happy, making plans for the next day, suicide was not on her agenda.


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[PrimeSuspect]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
We're back. Next on the stand is Karen Nielsen, a real estate trainer. #badenclay

 

[drsleuth]

David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 42m

Court resuming at 2.30pm with more witnesses who were in touch with Allison #badenclay on April 19 http://bit.ly/badenclayday2

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Ms Nielsen said they discussed growing the rental part of the business. Allison was very positive. #badenclay

1m
Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Ms Nielsen spent about four hours in a meeting with Allison on April 19. They discussed strategies to improve the business. #badenclay

 

[itsthevibe]

That entire quote is very misleading. They're talking at cross-purposes, and Nathan Milne isn't being clear. He (Milne) is talking about the levels found in the liver, both liver tissue and liver blood. Byrne QC is referring to blood levels as would normally be measured by a peripheral blood sample taken from, eg the vein in front of the elbow, or a leg vein.

They are completely different things.

I wonder if the prosecution will put Rob Hoskins, the other pathologist, on the stand? He was the one who had that information about liver concentrations etc that blew the suicide theory out of the water for the bail application. If they DO put him up as a prosecution witness, he should be able to demolish that whole overdose idea again.

I certainly hope so - Milne is annoying me, he is not sharp enough. he can only tell the truth, and sure, some things aren't definitive, but he isn't reinforcing the issue of the levels, which i don't think will help the jury.

One thing that has occurred to me is that thinking about the jury, and bearing in mind they were polled, and they are presumably people who have not followed the case like we have, and might have read little of any details in the past, I can see they might feel quite confused and unclear about some things so far, including things raised in Milnes testimony. Thinking back to when a lot of this first came out, we had trouble grappling with it, despite discussing it and reading everything known to man that was written or discovered.

It bothers me when thinking about the circumstantial evidence, the fact that some witnesses just dont make good witnesses, and then thinking about what conclusions a jury fresh to this will come to. The trial is a very short time indeed to make sense of it all for newbies, and that is what the jury represents in a sense.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Ms Nielsen said Allison spoke about her children and only recently coming on board with the business, her youngest child having started prep

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Ms Nielsen said she also met Gerard towards the end of the meeting. Allison introduced them and they talked about the meeting they'd had.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Ms Nielsen said Allison was in an "extremely enthusiastic" mood when she left at 1.30pm. #badenclay

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Ms Neilsen agreed both Allison and Gerard appeared excited about future prospects of the business when she left.

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Ms Nielsen said Allison refused cake over lunch and told her she was on a protein diet. #badenclay

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Older children were having sleepover at Ms Christ's house, younger at Baden-Clay house. They also talked about doing a Mother's Day stall.

__________________________________

ABC talked about the future, loved her girls to bits, not suicidal imo.

bbm

Younger children at Baden-Clay house senior respectively OW.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Cadioli: Gerard said he'd been having an affair with Toni but it was over. #badenclay
1m
Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Toni sent a group email and Gerard spoke to each person individually. #badenclay
1m
Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Ms Cadioli said she remembers the day Toni McHugh left. Toni and Gerard went for coffee and Gerard returned and said she wouldn't be back.
ReplyRetweetFavorite
2m
Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
The next witness is Gabrielle Cadioli, who worked as a receptionist at Gerard's Century 21 Westside. #badenclay