The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 2nd July - Trial Day 14, Week 3

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  • #1,101
Now that the prosecution and defence arguments have concluded, I'm going to put forward a theory that at first most will dismiss but bear with me.

Hypothermia.

Obviously not a common cause of death in QLD, much less in April but nevertheless I feel it is worthy of investigation.

From my admittedly limited research, hypothermia starts to become an issue around 60 degrees Fahrenheit (15.5 degrees Celsius). On the evening of the 19th of April/morning of the 20th the minimum temperature observed at Brisbane airport was 17 degrees however as most Brisbanites know, temperatures are routinely much, much colder in the western suburbs and Ipswich.

Finding detailed climate information for a date more than 2 years ago is difficult outside of the major weather stations but with a little bit of trawling through the bowels of the internet it appears that the minimums in the general vicinity of where Allison's body was found were anywhere between 13-16 degrees that night, with most around the 15 degree mark (there are lots of colder pockets/frost hollows in the area so it's difficult to determine exactly).

15 degrees is going to be chilly but not harmful to a healthy, non elderly person who is suitably dressed, however this is measured at some distance above the ground and Allison was found on the ground.

The terrestrial temperature (the temperature immediately above the ground) is usually measurably cooler than the recorded air temperature. Depending on other variables, primarily wind, the difference can be significant. This is why we see frosts when the air temperature is well above freezing. On a windless night, the terrestrial temperature is routinely 5-8 degrees cooler from my observations. Where it is windy, the difference is usually much smaller, maybe 1-3 degrees.

Allison was found lying/slumped on the ground. Assuming 15 degrees (and it may well have been a couple of degrees cooler at that exact location) with a terrestrial temp of 6 degrees lower (as there was virtually no wind recorded at Amberley during the relevant period), she has now been exposed to single digit temperatures for at least part of the evening/early morning. This slips under the 50 degree Fahrenheit mark which seems to be significant when assessing the risk of hypothermia but again a healthy adult should survive the night, albeit uncomfortably.

However what if Alison's clothing had become wet for some reason? Wet clothing MASSIVELY increases the risk of hypothermia, something that I've personally experienced when climbing in colder climates. Dry clothing, no worry in the world but as soon as your clothing becomes the slightest bit damp, things can get serious very quickly. There were localised showers in the area at the time, she could have been dripping in sweat after running vigorously, there may well have been a dew, she could have collected the moisture as she was brushing through foliage or indeed she could have become soaked if she had jumped or fallen in the water for whatever reason.

9-10 degree temperatures with wet clothing is not a good recipe. I haven't come across any detailed research on this exact scenario, most deal with total immersion of the body in water but a person will generally die within a couple of hours of being in 9 degree water. Although obviously wet clothing isn't quite as serious as total immersion, you can start to understand the seriousness.

On top of this it appears that antidepressants/sedatives and the like can adversely affect the ability of a person to ward off hypothermia.

One of the paradoxical reactions to hypothermia is the compulsion to undress oneself. Often perished mountaineers are found in various stages of undress, could it possibly be that Allison was attempting to remove her jumper for this very reason? Could she have sought the refuge of the bridge in a confused attempt to seek shelter?

A number of suppositions have to be made for this to be a plausible scenario (Allison would have had to have been at ground level for an extended period, either injured or exhausted) but it's something that I would have explored further. And perhaps it was and was debunked early on in the piece, nevertheless it's possible in my opinion, albeit not likely.
you've obviously out some thought into this so I'm taking your post seriously but in all honesty I don't get how this could be a realistic possibility.

Speaking as someone from Brisbane's west, it's not cold enough out here in April to die of hypothermia even if not moving around. It's colder out here in Winter but paradoxically it's warmer out here in summer and we still get the warm weather in April. If she was stuck out here and cold there'd be traffic coming past or homes she could go to for assistance rather than freezing.

As a theory it also wouldn't explain why Allison would be out this way. She wouldn't just decide to walk there, and it'd take ages, and she'd be seen. It's not near to her house foot wise. What would be the purpose for being there?
 
  • #1,102
Gerard says Fuller is asking a lot of hypothetical questions he has never thought about in detail. #badenclay

^ One of the tweets from today - makes me wonder how well the defence prepared him? Or did he insist on testifying and they just said, OK, you're on your own, buddy. The defence really did seem to drop the ball at the end. Wonder what they really think of him.
 
  • #1,103
Oh well, at least he remembered to contact the insurance people
Yes... i bet he remembers exactly where he was when he dialed the number.
 
  • #1,104
JCB I have appreciated your views over the course of the trial. You seemed quite dismayed when the defendant took the stand and you seemed to think this would be a bad thing for the prosecution. What are your thoughts after how the last 24 hours have transpired? I always enjoy reading your posts (even if they make me worried!) :)

Thank you for the kind words :)

I've been left a bit perplexed after the defence case, the toxicologist was largely superfluous I thought and the psychiatrist said what needed to be said but I'm confused as to why GBC gave evidence.

I said in an earlier post that I expected a psychiatrist to be the only witness for the defence and I still believe that would have been the best strategy (from a defence point of view). The reason for my dismay is that at the time I could think of only 2 reasons for putting GBC on the stand - There was some kind of smoking, or at least smouldering gun or GBC had simply ignored counsel's instructions not to give evidence. I did not imagine that Byrne QC would recommend getting on the stand and I also did not expect GBC to go against the recommendations of such senior and competent counsel.

I don't believe GBC's evidence was particularly damning or helpful to either party. By this point in the trial the jury would have known him to be manipulative, dishonest and deceitful when the need arose. Fuller QC certainly hammered that point home but in general juries tend to be turned off by aggressive lines of questioning that have already been largely addressed. Trying to put myself in the shoes of a juror, I'd be thinking something along the lines of "Yeah, this dude's a creep but that's all the prosecutor banged on about, if he is guilty why wasn't he able to elicit something that contradicted the earlier evidence"?

I'd say the last 2 days slightly favoured the defence, but not to the extent that I was concerned about and it was more the evidence of the psychiatrist that one can never eliminate the possibility of suicide, particularly with people who suffer from depression (as was expected) more so than GBC's evidence.
 
  • #1,105
  • #1,106
I read that the girls did brownies? Do they have different halls for scouts and brownies?
 
  • #1,107
Gerard says Fuller is asking a lot of hypothetical questions he has never thought about in detail. #badenclay

^ One of the tweets from today - makes me wonder how well the defence prepared him? Or did he insist on testifying and they just said, OK, you're on your own, buddy. The defence really did seem to drop the ball at the end. Wonder what they really think of him.


Just my take on it, but to be suspected is that if ever any of the defence catch their kids or even nephews carrying on and/or sounding like GBC -- they'd have a knee-jerk and kick the kid into the pool or deliver a back-hander with 'Don't you ever let me hear you speak like that again or you're out of the will' before they could control themselves. In fact, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that those from GBC's defence team book themselves in for some therapy and PTSD-remedials, imo
 
  • #1,108
I am curious as to how the BC's took in Gerards testimony... Gerard said he wasn't bought up to behave like this... .. not that it made any difference.. his behaviour wasn't a one-off , it was routine, persistant and regular.. .culminating in murder....

Nige and Gerard rang each other all day and every day.. yet Nige states he knows nothing about all this kind of gutter stuff at all.. they must be wondering if they ever really knew him.. . Olivia appeared to have quite an input into Gerards family dynamics, more that the average sister-in-law.... from her evidence, in contrast to Gerards, its like a parallel universe, it doesn't meet at any point of the compass in similarity.

Hearing his version of his life, and contrasting it with Olivia's version of his life, it is two completely different planets not even in the same planetary orbit.

Surely, there must be twinges of paralysing disbelief in the powers of their own judgement by now..
 
  • #1,109
I am curious as to how the BC's took in Gerards testimony... Gerard said he wasn't bought up to behave like this... .. not that it made any difference.. his behaviour wasn't a one-off , it was routine, persistant and regular.. .culminating in murder....

Nige and Gerard rang each other all day and every day.. yet Nige states he knows nothing about all this kind of gutter stuff at all.. they must be wondering if they ever really knew him.. . Olivia appeared to have quite an input into Gerards family dynamics, more that the average sister-in-law.... from her evidence, in contrast to Gerards, its like a parallel universe, it doesn't meet at any point of the compass in similarity.

Hearing his version of his life, and contrasting it with Olivia's version of his life, it is two completely different planets not even in the same planetary orbit.

Surely, there must be twinges of paralysing disbelief in the powers of their own judgement by now..



Trooper, that was masterful



:floorlaugh:
 
  • #1,110
Yes, I remember. Not sure why another month, unless it was to coincide with GBCs promise to be with TM unconditionally. The insurance would have lapsed though, wouldn't it? No pay-out?

One suggestion, at one time, was that a month later would have coincided with the Brookfield Show ...
 
  • #1,111
I am curious as to how the BC's took in Gerards testimony... Gerard said he wasn't bought up to behave like this... .. not that it made any difference.. his behaviour wasn't a one-off , it was routine, persistant and regular.. .culminating in murder....

Nige and Gerard rang each other all day and every day.. yet Nige states he knows nothing about all this kind of gutter stuff at all.. they must be wondering if they ever really knew him.. . Olivia appeared to have quite an input into Gerards family dynamics, more that the average sister-in-law.... from her evidence, in contrast to Gerards, its like a parallel universe, it doesn't meet at any point of the compass in similarity.

Hearing his version of his life, and contrasting it with Olivia's version of his life, it is two completely different planets not even in the same planetary orbit.

Surely, there must be twinges of paralysing disbelief in the powers of their own judgement by now..

IMO Nige is probably the one who has taught his little grasshopper Gerry the ways of the world. I would even go as far as having the opinion that he condoned it and prob slapped him on the back and said good work mate when he knew about the affair. :facepalm:
 
  • #1,112
with respect, JCB.. Boyle QC isn't Gerards barrister.. he is the Prosecutor.. if you insert Byrne QC in there that will make it ticketyboo.

Ugh so many similarly named lawyers! Thanks for pointing that out lol.
 
  • #1,113
Gerard says Fuller is asking a lot of hypothetical questions he has never thought about in detail. #badenclay

^ One of the tweets from today - makes me wonder how well the defence prepared him? Or did he insist on testifying and they just said, OK, you're on your own, buddy. The defence really did seem to drop the ball at the end. Wonder what they really think of him.

Mr Byrne would have made absolutely sure that Gerard signed an indemnity clause in his payment contract for services rendered, releasing Mr Byrne from any blowback from this decision to go on the stand, and most probably, a clause that says Mr Byrne advised against it.

people don't get to be Silks without these little details being pre -arranged.
 
  • #1,114
I am a psychiatric nurse and work in the forensic system. Narcissists are an absolute nightmare to deal with in the forensic setting as they are in real life.

I have got a little insight here to share so you can get an insight into how a true narcissist actually views themselves and the wider world.

The external image of the narcissist is the polar opposite of his/her internal uworld. On the outside the classic narcissist is frequently physically attractive, highly self confident, overflowing with charm. You feel the strong handshake, the eyes that penetrate your gaze, the rising of the jaw that tells you they are sure of every step. They are in command of their lives, unafraid and sure-footed. They spin phenomenal visions that are fueled by their grandiosity. Many people are fascinated by the narcissist in full bloom, exhibiting all of his persuasive gifts. When you are with a master narcissist you believe that anything is possible and can be accomplished with ease. The narcissistic view of life has no limits. They inspire awe in most people if they are high level narcissists who have mastered control and manipulation of others.

Beneath the glittery, irresistible surface, the inner world of the narcissist is empty, bleak and dark. There is a lifeless quality to the inner narcissist. These individuals are unacquainted with their unconscious feelings about themselves. They have no insight and believe their finely spun delusions. They convince others that they are superior and super human. Their followers are blindly loyal and believe they can do no wrong. Deep in the unconscious the narcissist is drowning in his self loathing and fraudulence. He feels empty and emotionally rudderless.

Pressure, self hatred, psychological lifelessness, unending restlessness and rage build up in the narcissist within the unconscious. The narcissist cannot contain these overpowering feelings so he projects them like bilious vomit on to those in his close environment. This includes his/her spouses, ex-spouses, children, siblings and in-laws. When they seethe with volcanic rage, the sounds emitted are bestial. Some of them let loose in public. Others save these ugly, rancorous scenes for private venues.

If you share your life with a narcissist, despite the role that you play, know that this person is never going to change. This is a severe personality disorder that is fixed and rigid. The narcissist lives in a psychological darkness that pulls others down into its depths. His/her demands, hatreds, treacheries, mounting cruelties, crimes of the heart mount as the darkness envelops him. He is unconcerned since the narcissist is out of touch with himself. It is those around him who are devastated by his internal psychological poisons. At the core he is putrid like a corpse that has been lying in the sun, giving off the lingering odor of death and decay. How long will you stay and be disastrously affected by this individual. Are there enough material rewards to cover up the stench of his vile deeds and deceits. Listen and you will hear the voice of your intuition rising, speaking to you in a compelling tone, telling you: “Get out now. Leave. Don’t stay or you will be trapped and lose yourself.”

There are many who have successfully removed themselves from the narcissist’s dark inner world. They have re-discovered themselves as individuals. The cracks of light have lengthened. They are in full light now and traveling a different road. Know that you can leave this dark place, that you don’t belong there.

reference: www.thenarcissistinyourlife.com

Been hoping and praying that someone, Professionally and Psychiatrically trained, might come here, and shed some light on Narcissism.
Plenty here, I suspect who have lived with it, survived it, learned from it, escaped from it; but to date ... no word from a professional in that field. I for one am keen to hear from you. Thankyou in advance.
 
  • #1,115
I commend you sitting through his drivel . I'm a washed out mess from the sidelines. Prob not going to get employee of the month either ��
I got drawn to this case two years ago due to my sister . So many similarities with husbands. I worry a lot. You can lead a horse to water but can't force it to drink... The dickies must feel this way I bet. We have tried so hard to get my sister ( & kids) out but the pressure of financial worry and going by herself is too much . This is with the unconditional supportof 2 parents and 6 siblings and their partners . I feel so hard for women who feel this trapped. I believe a big worry in these situations is having to " share" custody with someone they know is a deranged moron.

Precisely!!

Oh good to hear someone gets it.

Allison was intelligent and composed but beyond every bit of education and gorgeous personality trait I believe the protection of their vulnerable little girls was tops.

Allison knew of 3 affairs and with her having flashbacks her poor mind might likely had guessed at more in the past. Psychologists would have suggested it too.

How do you leave to protect your girls when the law puts them in the care of such men without Mum there - we only have GBC word he wasn't also a physical abuse - sorry but Allison has all the hallmarks of a silent physical victim (too!) AND then there's their next unsuspecting partners and/or mistresses who Allison might never meet, know or trust to care, drive, 'raise' the girls every second week.

So Allison stays.

Kids are work. Three little girls are work. Prepping lunches, ironing, work emails in the evening, fitting in a bit of down time... GBC and Allison loved them, were experience and more patient than any new partner or mistress is likely to - Allison had to have been weighing all of this up against trying to fix GBC with counsellor after counsellor.

Your village of family love knows how logical it is to say leave him.
The reality is complex and you can't blame Allison for trying to make it work, hang in there, deal with his 'flaws', think positively, blame self, improve self, etc, etc.

My heart bleeds for Allison and her girls.

Listening to him - brag... condescendingly describe Allison : the Dickies offered her and the girls sanctuary : they have that for comfort : at least their brave and proud daughter eventually shared some of her reality with them before she passed.

It's tough hey. (bit emotional : have followed for 2 years and stopped myself posting so many, many times) It's upsetting.

It's all too common.

Even if some other mug is found to have 900 pieces of evidence proving he killed Allison (& I'm not suggesting that's slightly possible - anyway GBC couldn't afford to pay for a 'hit') - there will never be suitable punishment for men like GBC (without them being murderers) not when there's a woman and one girl, two girls and three girls additionally living under the same roof as this fraud.

jmo
 
  • #1,116
IMO Nige is probably the one who has taught his little grasshopper Gerry the ways of the world. I would even go as far as having the opinion that he condoned it and prob slapped him on the back and said good work mate when he knew about the affair. :facepalm:


Not much is as tragic as a self-absorbed, ostensibly male child, attempting to win approval from his heterosexual father by marrying, producing offspring and flaunting extramarital affairs. Tragic for all involved, not least of whom being the wife and children sacrificed at the altar of machismo
 
  • #1,117
Mr Baden-Clay Snr told the court of the moment he learnt Allison's body had been located.

"The police came to Gerard's office, I happened to be in Gerard's office at the time, and the police came to Gerard's office to tell him," he said.

"But we had actually heard before that because it was actually on the internet before the police got to his office.

"We were aware a body had been found under the Kohlo Creek Bridge."

http://m.noosanews.com.au/news/murder-trial-gerard-baden-clay-second-week/2290111/

Thanks Amee :)
 
  • #1,118
So are we never going to know what was in Toni's fifth statement.
I think it is still a possibility that she told Allison herself by text or phone call that she and Gerard were still having an affair.
Why was she so upset at the thought of Allison going to the conference, we know it wasn't concern for Allison sake.

Respectfully snipped.

Hi Kiwi50, i think it's a good point. My theory on that is that Gerard lied to both women about each other. He probably told Toni how depressive and dull his wife was, and there would be beautiful Allison full of enthusiasm for business. He probably told Allison how annoying Toni was, and there would be Toni with her expectations. Toni could have approached Allison to say sorry or smth... And then who knows.
 
  • #1,119
This is eerily similar to my ex. I had to leave the car at home for him in case he needed to drive up the block for cigarettes during the day, while i had to take 2 babies on the bus to daycare and work (they both have adhd/asd just to make it more fun). Buses then didnt allow strollers so it was not easy juggling babies and folding up strollers while carrying their bags, my laptop and my bag.

It's really not an easy decision to leave a marriage when you have young kids but the biggest reason i had was that I didn't want the kids to have this jerk as a role model and think that his behaviour was OK. It wasn't easy kicking him out, but life became much easier not having that 3rd demanding child around. If anyone is going through this please consider that in some cases it's not the best for your kids to have a nuclear family, but a stable family. Yes you have to deal with custody issues and it can be difficult for the kids being treated as pawns, (especially when he went on to marry the woman with borderline personality disorder, I'm glad that failed) but I have a great relationship with my kids that I probably wouldn't have been able to have if i was still having to put him first.

I think so many of us can relate to Allison and it makes this case personal.

I don't usually quote Dr Phil but agree in many cases, that "It's better to come from a broken home than live in one!"
 
  • #1,120
Whaddya mean? You mean nobody told him he had to say anything OFF script?
Ooooh!
Lateral thinking required? Er um, who gives you lateral thinking? Or is that bought? Or is that what Daddy and Mummy supply just because?
Big word here ...... Gives.

:floorlaugh:

Maybe Toni has it!
 
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