The Cuts

Goody said:
Well, it is possible, Duffy, but I think what the two different types of wounds say the loudest is that there would have to be a change in motive if there is a change in method. The boys were stabbed as they were because the attacker was so motivated to make sure they died as quickly as possible. If he then turned to Darlie and made a slicing motion instead of a deep stab, whether he landed it or not, it tells me that he was not as motivated to kill her. You have to ask yourself then why would anyone want to kill children but not the mother, WHO would do such a thing? A stranger just doesn't fit into that profile.
Ok Goody, Duffy had to read your post twice (I was really tired last night) to understand that my post was misunderstood. lol!

I don't subscribe to the other dude did it scenario. I absolutely believe darlie did it. A stranger or someone who knew the routiers and wanted to do them harm for whatever reason would most likely hold to what police know in that they wouldn't viciously stab the boys numerous times and then slice at darlie a couple of times.

To me this doesn't convict darlie in and of itself but it does add to the damning evidence against her.

I also acknowledge that not every criminal will fit a profile, there are exceptions to the rule. I just don't buy darlies defense that this is one of the exceptions.

Thanks for showing me my lack of clarity!

Have a good Monday!!............Duffy
 
cami said:
No, it wasn't. He used a scalpel not an icepick to inflict the lung injury. He also had observed similar surgery a few days before that so he knew where to inflict the injury without damaging any other organs.
Pardon me, dear, but it was an icepick. And he would not have had to watch a surgery to know where to poke his chest and cause his lung to collapse that small amount. There were no scalpels involved in the murders at all. It'd be hard to cause a penetrating round wound to his chest with a scalpel. Don't start this with me. You won't win...I know this case! :razz:
 
duffy said:
Ok Goody, Duffy had to read your post twice (I was really tired last night) to understand that my post was misunderstood. lol!

I don't subscribe to the other dude did it scenario. I absolutely believe darlie did it. A stranger or someone who knew the routiers and wanted to do them harm for whatever reason would most likely hold to what police know in that they wouldn't viciously stab the boys numerous times and then slice at darlie a couple of times.

To me this doesn't convict darlie in and of itself but it does add to the damning evidence against her.

I also acknowledge that not every criminal will fit a profile, there are exceptions to the rule. I just don't buy darlies defense that this is one of the exceptions.

Thanks for showing me my lack of clarity!

Have a good Monday!!............Duffy
Ah, another one. I tend to speak of myself in the third person as well. LOL!

Okay, first, I don't think I misunderstood you. I was agreeing with you in part, and just adding alternative viewpoints in the rest. We both obviously think Darlie is guilty, but I think we may read some of the evidence differently.
 
cami said:
you have a few things incorrect. Kris was already dead when Colette managed to stagger into her room to try and protect her. MacDonald heard her and caught up with in that room where he beat her furiously with that club, breaking both her arms and crushing her skull. Kimmie did not die instantly with the first blow to the head, she was still clinically alive when she was stabbed in the neck.

The murders happened a few months after Tate/LaBianca, not a few years. Sharon Tate was murdered in August 1969.

I too have been studing this case for years. It's my favourite. You must be reading on Christina's site if you've seen the autopsy photos. Isn't her site great!!!!

I'm sorry honey, but you are wrong. For 1 thing, there really isn't a way to determine for sure when Kristie died. And you misunderstood what I said. Collette most likely,(again there is no known time line) had time to escape. I know Kristie had already been attacked when Collette went into her room. But was she dead yet? Impossible to tell. Nobody can get time of death down to the minute and you know that. And yes, of course I know Collette was furiously attacked in that room. Duh, I wasn't telling the entire story, just trying to answer a question.
Kimmie's autopsy report says the blow to her head probably caused death right away, and does it matter if she were brain dead when he cut her throat or not? Again, I was jotting a note to answer 1 question, not telling the entire story. When I said "Kimmie was killed right away by a blow to the head" I was simply shortening the story. As you know, it's a long one. I did mention the overkill of all 3/4 victims which indicates that I know full well that he cut her again. One blow is not overkill.
And how old are you? I'm 36, 7th grade was a long time ago for me, which is how long I've been studying this case. Did I say "years"? Jeez I meant months. I know the Tate/La Bianca case pretty well too. Aug. of '69 and Feb of '70 are months. It was a typo or brain fart, whatever. I'm not writing a thesis here. If I skimmed over things, it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
About that site, I simply looked at the pix and read the autopsy reports of Kimmie and Kristie. I guess she doesn't have Collette's or at least I couldn't find it on there. There are some Tate/La Bianca pix and autopsy reports floating around the Net too.
 
No, it wasn't. He used a scalpel not an icepick to inflict the lung injury. He also had observed similar surgery a few days before that so he knew where to inflict the injury without damaging any other organs.
So this doesnt turn into a Dr. Mac thread, I'm sending you a PM. I disagree with some of your statements :twocents:
 
[
QUOTE=cami]you have a few things incorrect. Kris was already dead when Colette managed to stagger into her room to try and protect her. MacDonald heard her and caught up with in that room where he beat her furiously with that club, breaking both her arms and crushing her skull. Kimmie did not die instantly with the first blow to the head, she was still clinically alive when she was stabbed in the neck.

The murders happened a few months after Tate/LaBianca, not a few years. Sharon Tate was murdered in August 1969.

I too have been studing this case for years. It's my favourite. You must be reading on Christina's site if you've seen the autopsy photos. Isn't her site great!!!!
What I've said is merely theory based on things I've read. In a case like this, you cannot be correct or incorrect. Even if Dr. Mac confesses(yeah right) he'll never tell the exact story. Unless you are the Dr. himself, all anybody knows for sure is 3 people were slaughtered that night and 1 adult male was left alive with boo boo's. Anything anybody writes or says is conjecture. Read Kimmie's autopsy report again, it says 'probably' about the instant death. And I didn't mean years, I meant months. Lets move this to PM.
 
beesy said:
[ What I've said is merely theory based on things I've read. In a case like this, you cannot be correct or incorrect. Even if Dr. Mac confesses(yeah right) he'll never tell the exact story. Unless you are the Dr. himself, all anybody knows for sure is 3 people were slaughtered that night and 1 adult male was left alive with boo boo's. Anything anybody writes or says is conjecture. Read Kimmie's autopsy report again, it says 'probably' about the instant death. And I didn't mean years, I meant months. Lets move this to PM.

Right on didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.
 
beesy said:
Her 38DD breasts as he reportedly told anyone who'd listen at the ER that night. :loser:

Hey, Beesy, have you seen Part IV of the Leeza Show on Darlie's website? Darin was discussing why an intruder would want to rape Darlie, and he blurts out that she has "36 triple Ds". There was a dead silence in the studio & Leeza was literally speechless for several seconds.

I'll bet Sarilda and Darlie Kee wanted to pimp slap him after that little faux pas. :D

P.S. You shorted Darlie one D, but redeemed yourself by giving her two extra inches. Don't worry, Darin isn't angry with you. He's a very understanding guy. :rolleyes:
 
beesy said:
[/b]
I dont quite understand what you mean. I know what lividity is, but what are you saying caused yours? Injuries or being in the same position at the hospital or what?
What is lividity? I'll have to look that up. I had a blow to the head by hitting the windshield but the only place there was any "blood" was when it all drained to below my eyes. I had two black eyes even though my eyes had not been touched, and a police car pulled us over a few days later and nearly arrested my husband for assault because of my black eyes. And I do not bruise easily at all.
 
Mary456 said:
Hey, Beesy, have you seen Part IV of the Leeza Show on Darlie's website? Darin was discussing why an intruder would want to rape Darlie, and he blurts out that she has "36 triple Ds". There was a dead silence in the studio & Leeza was literally speechless for several seconds.
Haha! And they left that in on Darlie's defense website? I'll have to watch that. But why were her 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 being discussed in the ER? I have yet to read a book on this case.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
there's a McDonald thread around here some place. Feel free to take it there.
Yeah, it's in the Crimes In the News folder. I've been trying to keep it going. It's hard not to get them entwined because there are so many similarities between the two cases!
 
Kalypso said:
What is lividity? I'll have to look that up. I had a blow to the head by hitting the windshield but the only place there was any "blood" was when it all drained to below my eyes. I had two black eyes even though my eyes had not been touched, and a police car pulled us over a few days later and nearly arrested my husband for assault because of my black eyes. And I do not bruise easily at all.

Lividity is marking on a corpse that shows where the blood settled. i.e. if you are found dead on your back, then your back should be pinkish/purple from the lividity.

Right from the very beginning of this, I too thought that the bruise on the underside of her arm is more blood settling than any blunt force trauma.
 
cami said:
Right on didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.


:truce: Hi my feathers are unruffled. Seems we've learned from each other during this. I know I've learned from you at least. I've been reading thru some of Dr. Mac posts and they are very long and many of them. It's fun to brain storm with like minded people(i.e.) the Mac haters.
 
cami said:
Right from the very beginning of this, I too thought that the bruise on the underside of her arm is more blood settling than any blunt force trauma.
Esp because it goes up right up under her arm, or almost to the armpit, I guess I should say.
 
cami said:
Lividity is marking on a corpse that shows where the blood settled. i.e. if you are found dead on your back, then your back should be pinkish/purple from the lividity.

Right from the very beginning of this, I too thought that the bruise on the underside of her arm is more blood settling than any blunt force trauma.
Do they also call it lividity if it's NOT on a corpse? Has anyone researched the difference between what blood settling bruises look like and what blunt force trauma bruises look like? I can't believe that people use those photos as some sort of evidence that she fought anybody, because right away it looked like blood settling to me. Any doctor could probably tell the difference, of course. Are Darlie's medical records posted online like Andrea Yates are? Oh well, I guess they didn't get into this subject at the trial, but that one juror interviewed said he would have acquitted if he had seen those photos. And that bothers me that the prosecution either missed this or ignored this. Because the defense uses it to their advantage.
 
Kalypso said:
Oh well, I guess they didn't get into this subject at the trial, but that one juror interviewed said he would have acquitted if he had seen those photos. And that bothers me that the prosecution either missed this or ignored this. Because the defense uses it to their advantage.

Hi Kalypso,

The juror did see those photos. I'm going to repost here a section of a longer post I made the other day. It shows that the State very clearly showed the bruising which that one juror claims he didn't see. I don't know what is going on with him unless it is a completely shot memory because he had photos of the bruising shown up close to his face and he numerous nurses all unanimously testify that this bruising he claims he would have acquitted on could not have been from the attack because
a) they weren't there when she was in hospital
b) the photos taken at the police station on the 10th (4 days after) show very recent bruises (24-48 hrs old at the most).

There is nothing to be bothered about here from the states POV. The defense could not use the bruising at trial because it implicated Darlie (fresh bruising 4 days after the attack) rather than cast reasonable doubt. That juror has either been manipulated (I don't mean in a nasty way) by Darlie apologists (like Chris Brown for example) or has just completely forgotten parts of the trial.

From an earlier post:
I'm not sure if you have MTJD but by far the best photos showing her bruises are 52 A, B, C, E (having said that it is very clear when you compare the photos that our friend Chris Brown has manipulated the colours and contrast on a number of them to make it look worse). They are all state exhibits. If you read the testimony (vol 31 has lots on it) you will quickly see why Mulder did not harp on and on about the bruises- because the testimomy unanimously said that it was recent bruising and no way could it have been done 4 days previously. The nurses unanimously said they would have noticed the beginnings of such massive bruising (similar to what you would find in a car accident). One of them says it would have been charted over and over again. One said she would be in a lot of pain. They all said it was severe brusing and certainly not something they would overlook.

Here is one of the exerpts

20 Q. 52-G, is that a photograph that we can
21 see of Ms. Routier's right arm?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And if you could just watch
24 your shoulder here, if you can keep it down, because we
25 have jurors -- in fact, I'll just get you to go along the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
871

1 jury rail in a moment. But the blood we see here, is
2 that from an injury, abrasions that were on the arm?
3 A. No, that looks like dried blood. Just
4 blood dries and it is hard to wash off. She does not
5 look like she's been cleaned.
6 Q. Okay. And holding 52-F also, is that
7 another photograph of the arm?
8 A. Yes. This is the same arm, different
9 aspect.
10 Q. Okay. If you had seen evidence of
11 this blunt -- if she had had blunt trauma on the 6th of
12 June, would you have seen it somewhere here in the ICU on
13 her arm?
14 A. From what I saw in the photograph, I
15 think we would be able to see it on this part of the arm
16 right here.
17 Q. Okay. If you could just start at that
18 end of the jury and show them.
19 A. Did they see this other bruise?
20 Q. We'll go over that in a minute, after
21 you finish that.
22 A. All this on here is dried blood from
23 either her neck wound or the wound here.
24 Q. And if you could show 32-A.
25 A. Okay.

http://www.justicefordarlie.net/transcripts/volumes/vol-31.php

Note that 32-A is actually 52-A (32-A is a statement of the defendant and not in evidence and in the context of the bruising it is clear that what was shown was 52-A which is the clearest photo of the arm with the bruising from wrist to up near her underarm

The State got the witness to show the jury at the jury rail those photos. They saw them. Right in front of them. The defense on the other hand submitted a couple of photos which don't show the brusing at all clearly and they didn't cross exam extensively about the bruises at all.

Now you'll say they didn't do that because they sucked and did a poor job of defending Darlie. But the reality is that if they did make a big deal about the photographs they would be hammer the nails into the coffin because every one of those medical experts said that brusing like that had to be recent and that there were no signs of that kind of bruising when she was in hospital. Now even if you want to argue that they were subconciously biased and blocked that bruising from their minds (which I think is a fairly ludicrous statement really as regardless of whether or not they thought she was guilty there would have been charts with the bruising noted and it would be impossible for every single one of them to just 'forgot' that bruising) the fact that those bruises are recent and not 4 days old could and would be attested to by any doctor or nurse of medicial practioner you put in the stand who had absolutely nothing to do with Darlie. It is an objective statement. They were new bruises. Not 4 days old.

That's why the defense didn't scream it from the rafters - and for good old Charlie to come out a couple of years later saying he would never have convicted on the basis of those bruises is flat out wrong too- because he saw them right up close and he heard all the testimony that it couldn't be bruising that was done on June 6th.

If Mulder had blown up those photos and rambled to the jury about them for hours he would have signed Darlie's guilty verdict.
 
Kalypso said:
Do they also call it lividity if it's NOT on a corpse? Has anyone researched the difference between what blood settling bruises look like and what blunt force trauma bruises look like? I can't believe that people use those photos as some sort of evidence that she fought anybody, because right away it looked like blood settling to me. Any doctor could probably tell the difference, of course. Are Darlie's medical records posted online like Andrea Yates are? Oh well, I guess they didn't get into this subject at the trial, but that one juror interviewed said he would have acquitted if he had seen those photos. And that bothers me that the prosecution either missed this or ignored this. Because the defense uses it to their advantage.

I don't think anyone takes Charlie the juror very seriously, anyone in the know that is. The testimony proves that the photos of the bruises were shown to the jury. If I remember from the testimony the doctor did testify that they appeared to be some sort of blunt force trauma but I would need a reread on that. My own personal opinion on the bruising on her hands is they are from the iv needle. I sure remember my hands being bruised up like that from iv sticks.
 
Cami! where did you find the little pic of dr. mac in jail? Is there a link? Please, please, please? I love it!
 
Mary456 said:
Hey, Beesy, have you seen Part IV of the Leeza Show on Darlie's website? Darin was discussing why an intruder would want to rape Darlie, and he blurts out that she has "36 triple Ds". There was a dead silence in the studio & Leeza was literally speechless for several seconds.

I'll bet Sarilda and Darlie Kee wanted to pimp slap him after that little faux pas. :D

P.S. You shorted Darlie one D, but redeemed yourself by giving her two extra inches. Don't worry, Darin isn't angry with you. He's a very understanding guy. :rolleyes:

Oh dear shorted her 1 D but gave her an inch. Poor Darlie:boohoo: I have never seen that Leeza show, but it sounds like I should. I'll check it out
 

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