The December 23 party

[proust20]

icedtea4me

Given the nature of your psychological interests, I am curious what you make of PR claiming that she thought at first that the RN was referring to an older daughter of JR. (Elizabeth?)

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me

Given the nature of your psychological interests, I am curious what you make of PR claiming that she thought at first that the RN was referring to an older daughter of JR. (Elizabeth?)

That was when Patsy said something like [paraphrased]: "Your daughter Beth. In our possession. 1997." [Mouth opens and eyes bug out.]

On one hand, it seems very odd that Patsy would say she thought it was Beth. After all, she's known that Beth has been dead for close to five years. Why not Melinda? Why Beth? Patsy couldn't help but bring up the name of a dead child. It's like she's telling the viewers "I brought up the name of a dead child because I'm communicating that I knew JonBenet was also dead when I claim to have found the note."

 

[DeDee]

There is another good read about Patsy's psyche entitled "A Mother Gone Bad" written by Andrew Hodges. Fast, fascinating read. Can't put down. Hodges' credentials in bio are fascinating, too.

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Also, there's the intriguing thread at FFJ "O Cookie" that discusses Patsy's softball team, Mom's Gone Bad, sponsored by Access Graphics. Andrew Hodges discusses this time period in detail. The Softball Team's rule was that only adults were allowed as it was grown up time without the care of children.

I also watched movie and read the book "The Prime of Miss Jean Brody" that PR recited a portion of as her talent performance in the 1980 Miss Virginia contest.

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[icedtea4me]

Any theory that Patsy or Burke killed JB by (accidentally or on purpose) hitting her on the head are not medically sound. The little girl was already dead when she was struck on the head, which is why there was almost zero internal bleeding.<snip>

Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7 x 4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization.

http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet07.gif

If she had been struck on the head after blood flow to the brain had ceased, there would be no area of extensive scalp hemorrhage.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Replied by error

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Replied by error

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7 x 4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization.

http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet07.gif

If she had been struck on the head after blood flow to the brain had ceased, there would be no area of extensive scalp hemorrhage.

Are you just clarifying the issue? Because I do not believe JB died because Patsy or Burke accidentally hit her on the head. I consider this to be a premeditated murder.

It's also interesting that only Patsy's paintbrush was used to strangle JB. Pasty does appear to have been framed. Look at the ransom note, notepad and writing paper.

This is largely why I suspect John and John Andrew. Plus I know the contents of the suitcase.

No one cover ups an accidental death by staging a "sexual crime." The family could claim that the little girl fell and hit her head.

And it's worth noting that Patsy innocently called the police, before John could dispose of the suitcase and the dead body.

 

[icedtea4me]

Are you just clarifying the issue? Because I do not believe JB died because Patsy or Burke accidentally hit her on the head. I consider this to be a premeditated murder.

1. Yes, I was clarifying the issue.
2. The blow to the head, imo, is assault in the first degree. If JonBenet had been taken to the hospital right away, it has been said that she would've survived. However, since neither John nor Patsy did this, the head injury became a contributing factor in her death.

It's also interesting that only Patsy's paintbrush was used to strangle JB. Pasty does appear to have been framed. Look at the ransom note, notepad and writing paper.

This is largely why I suspect John and John Andrew. Plus I know the contents of the suitcase.

1. John Andrew was in Atlanta.
2. John has knowledge of garottes due to his time in the Philippines when he was stationed at Subic Bay.
3. Fibers from Patsy's clothing were in the garrote and the paint tray.
4. There was a "Oh, The Places You Will Go" Dr Seuss book and a semen-stained duvet in the suitcase.

No one cover ups an accidental death by staging a "sexual crime." The family could claim that the little girl fell and hit her head.

If it was just a matter of JonBenet falling and hitting her head, then why not take her to the hospital?

And it's worth noting that Patsy innocently called the police, before John could dispose of the suitcase and the dead body.

There's no way JonBenet could've been gotten out of the house without alerting Burke and/or any of the neighbors.

 

[UKGuy]

Firstly, we must understand that this was a premeditated murder. There seems to be two motives. 1) to silence JB so that she cannot report PRIOR sexual abuse; and 2) to frame or at least cast suspicion on Patsy.

A routine "sexual predator" would be more interested in framing the father, than in framing the mother.

Secondly, we must understand that JB that the Patsy theory and the Burke theory are not medically sound. Most likely, the little girl was already dead when she received the head injury, since thee was almost zero internal bleeding.

Thirdly, had Patsy or Burke killed JB by accident by striking her on the head, the family could claim that the little girl fell and hit her head.

Fourth, as a woman, I do not want to give John or John Andrew a few pass (as least one of these men is a sexual abuser), and blame Patsy or Burke. I also consider the Patsy theory to be biased and sexist.

So, who has these two motives? John and John Andrew!

PremeditatedCrime,

Secondly, we must understand that JB that the Patsy theory and the Burke theory are not medically sound. Most likely, the little girl was already dead when she received the head injury, since thee was almost zero internal bleeding.

If JonBenet is already dead what is the motivation for whacking her on the head which leaves no visible sign of injury?

Patsy's fibers are embedded into the knotting of the paintbrush/ligature device, what's sexist about that evidence?

John Andrew has a cast iron alibi corroborated by folks in another state, so he is not a suspect.

Whereas John Ramsey is, likely along with Patsy, a prime suspect.

So on the face of it, looks like Patsy helped stage the crime-scene along with John Ramsey, even the Grand Jury think this, so much so, they leveled COUNT VII (Accessory to a Crime) at them both.


.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

PremeditatedCrime,

If JonBenet is already dead what is the motivation for whacking her on the head which leaves no visible sign of injury?

Patsy's fibers are embedded into the knotting of the paintbrush/ligature device, what's sexist about that evidence?

John Andrew has a cast iron alibi corroborated by folks in another state, so he is not a suspect.

Whereas John Ramsey is, likely along with Patsy, a prime suspect.

So on the face of it, looks like Patsy helped stage the crime-scene along with John Ramsey, even the Grand Jury think this, so much so, they leveled COUNT VII (Accessory to a Crime) at them both.


.

Re: Grand Jury

If I am correct, the Grand Jury suspected long standing sexual abuse, running in both the John's family, and also in Patsy's family. Their parents, grandparents and such.

Was Burke interviewed and asked if he had ever been sexually abused?

Re: Sexism

Yes, but look at the two police detectives (Thomas and the other one).

One said that Burke did it, and that only Patsy covered it up. Why not John also covering it up?
The other detective stated that Pasty lost it over a bedwetting accident, and went into a rage. Yet, it was John was known to be a vey strict and disciplinary father, who was known to have rages. He used to yell at Patsy about all sorts of things. Why only Patsy blamed?

Besides John was physically stronger than Patsy. Why hasn't anyone considered that John flew into a rage, and that John bashed JB's head, and then covered it up as an accident.

Besides, if Patsy or Burke had (accidentally) struck JB, the best thing to do would be to take her to the hospital, claiming that the girl had fallen, perhaps in the bathroom. Accidents do happen, and they could pretend that she fell against the bathtub.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Few questions:
1. Did JB die at the Whites? Were the Whites, Fernies, and Ramseys all involved in the cover-up?
2. The handwriting seems to match a certain penmanship that Fleet White learned years ago. (This would not be Fleet White's usual handwriting style.)
3. Did John compose the CONTENTS of the note, though he may not have handwritten the note? There's no profanity (swear words) in the note, which is why I suspect John of composing the letter. And, the letter is sort of a "big ego trip."
4. Why was Patsy framed? Sexism? Maybe they were trying to make it look like an old boyfriend of hers was trying to frame her?
5. I've read reports of Patsy having a boyfriend, plus a couple of former boyfriends. But they checked out fine; nothing suspicious. They co-operated with the police. No evidence that they were "sexual abusers" or that they wanted revenge against Patsy.
6. Could John have gotten the body out of the house without the neighbors seeing? I cannot see the body fitting into a suitcase, but I honestly don't know.
Patsy would not have the physical strength to get the body out of the house.
7. John's business had dubious connections and dealings (, perhaps money laundering). I do not rule out the pedophile//prostitution angle, but why only frame Patsy?
8. Could be a coincidence that Patsy was framed? It would be more likely that they were trying to pretend that an old boyfriend of hers wanted revenge.
9. I believe the reports that Elizabeth did accuse John of sexual abuse. A few weeks or a few months later, she wound up dead in a "car accident." Since this was fully investigated, can we assume that it was truly an accident?
10. I know about Nancy Krebs. Even if some of her details were exaggerated, it doesn't mean that Fleet/White were not involved in the sexual abuse.

By the way, I'm a Liberal and not religious. I'm anti-, anti-prostitution, and anti-sexual exploitation - but not convinced that /prostitution was involved. I'm in Canada.

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

icedtea4me

Given the nature of your psychological interests, I am curious what you make of PR claiming that she thought at first that the RN was referring to an older daughter of JR. (Elizabeth?)

I don't think this was addressed to me but I will comment:

It suggests that Patsy suspected a relationship between Elizabeth's death and JB. Generally this would not happen, since Elizabeth (supposedly) died in a car accident.

 

[UKGuy]

Re: Grand Jury

If I am correct, the Grand Jury suspected long standing sexual abuse, running in both the John's family, and also in Patsy's family. Their parents, grandparents and such.

Was Burke interviewed and asked if he had ever been sexually abused?

Re: Sexism

Yes, but look at the two police detectives (Thomas and the other one).

One said that Burke did it, and that only Patsy covered it up. Why not John also covering it up?
The other detective stated that Pasty lost it over a bedwetting accident, and went into a rage. Yet, it was John was known to be a vey strict and disciplinary father, who was known to have rages. He used to yell at Patsy about all sorts of things. Why only Patsy blamed?

Besides John was physically stronger than Patsy. Why hasn't anyone considered that John flew into a rage, and that John bashed JB's head, and then covered it up as an accident.

Besides, if Patsy or Burke had (accidentally) struck JB, the best thing to do would be to take her to the hospital, claiming that the girl had fallen, perhaps in the bathroom. Accidents do happen, and they could pretend that she fell against the bathtub.

PremeditatedCrime,

If I am correct, the Grand Jury suspected long standing sexual abuse, running in both the John's family, and also in Patsy's family. Their parents, grandparents and such.

Sure, but only if you are correct. No details on this subject has been revealed by the GJ.

Was Burke interviewed and asked if he had ever been sexually abused?

Interviewed yes, on that question, who knows?

One said that Burke did it, and that only Patsy covered it up. Why not John also covering it up?
The other detective stated that Pasty lost it over a bedwetting accident, and went into a rage. Yet, it was John was known to be a vey strict and disciplinary father, who was known to have rages. He used to yell at Patsy about all sorts of things. Why only Patsy blamed?

Your focus on sexism is biasing you to ignore the evidence which directly implicates Patsy!

Besides John was physically stronger than Patsy. Why hasn't anyone considered that John flew into a rage, and that John bashed JB's head, and then covered it up as an accident.

Sure, why not, except the evidence does not support this theory.

Besides, if Patsy or Burke had (accidentally) struck JB, the best thing to do would be to take her to the hospital, claiming that the girl had fallen, perhaps in the bathroom. Accidents do happen, and they could pretend that she fell against the bathtub.

Which is why it was probably not an accident. Then there is the sexual assault, how does that get explained away at the hospital?

.

 

[icedtea4me]

There is another good read about Patsy's psyche entitled "A Mother Gone Bad" written by Andrew Hodges. Fast, fascinating read. Can't put down. Hodges' credentials in bio are fascinating, too.

View attachment 287249 View attachment 287251

I purchased AMGB when I came across it at either Borders or Barnes and Noble back in 2000 and have subsequently purchased his follow-up book Who Will Speak for JonBenet. This one was released in 2000 after John and Patsy's DoI book tour. While I don't adhere to everything Hodges says, I do agree with the time bomb motive (cancer) and the trigger motive (observing sexual abuse).

<snip>I also watched movie and read the book "The Prime of Miss Jean Brody" that PR recited a portion of as her talent performance in the 1980 Miss Virginia contest.

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The ending scene, imo, is very powerful.

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[UKGuy]

Few questions:
1. Did JB die at the Whites? Were the Whites, Fernies, and Ramseys all involved in the cover-up?
2. The handwriting seems to match a certain penmanship that Fleet White learned years ago. (This would not be Fleet White's usual handwriting style.)
3. Did John compose the CONTENTS of the note, though he may not have handwritten the note? There's no profanity (swear words) in the note, which is why I suspect John of composing the letter. And, the letter is sort of a "big ego trip."
4. Why was Patsy framed? Sexism? Maybe they were trying to make it look like an old boyfriend of hers was trying to frame her?
5. I've read reports of Patsy having a boyfriend, plus a couple of former boyfriends. But they checked out fine; nothing suspicious. They co-operated with the police. No evidence that they were "sexual abusers" or that they wanted revenge against Patsy.
6. Could John have gotten the body out of the house without the neighbors seeing? I cannot see the body fitting into a suitcase, but I honestly don't know.
Patsy would not have the physical strength to get the body out of the house.
7. John's business had dubious connections and dealings (, perhaps money laundering). I do not rule out the pedophile//prostitution angle, but why only frame Patsy?
8. Could be a coincidence that Patsy was framed? It would be more likely that they were trying to pretend that an old boyfriend of hers wanted revenge.
9. I believe the reports that Elizabeth did accuse John of sexual abuse. A few weeks or a few months later, she wound up dead in a "car accident." Since this was fully investigated, can we assume that it was truly an accident?
10. I know about Nancy Krebs. Even if some of her details were exaggerated, it doesn't mean that Fleet/White were not involved in the sexual abuse.

By the way, I'm a Liberal and not religious. I'm anti-, anti-prostitution, and anti-sexual exploitation - but not convinced that /prostitution was involved. I'm in Canada.

PremeditatedCrime,

1. Did JB die at the Whites? Were the Whites, Fernies, and Ramseys all involved in the cover-up?

No because she snacked pineapple after leaving the White's, her large intestine does not lie.

2. The handwriting seems to match a certain penmanship that Fleet White learned years ago. (This would not be Fleet White's usual handwriting style.)

Patsy's script will differ from Fleet's in predictable features, from memory both scripts have been named in books highlighting this subject.

3. Did John compose the CONTENTS of the note, though he may not have handwritten the note? There's no profanity (swear words) in the note, which is why I suspect John of composing the letter. And, the letter is sort of a "big ego trip."

John quite likely assisted Patsy, revising drafts and proof-reading it.

4. Why was Patsy framed? Sexism? Maybe they were trying to make it look like an old boyfriend of hers was trying to frame her?

Only John could frame her and what would his motive be, sexism is definitely off the menu.

5. I've read reports of Patsy having a boyfriend, plus a couple of former boyfriends. But they checked out fine; nothing suspicious. They co-operated with the police. No evidence that they were "sexual abusers" or that they wanted revenge against Patsy.

I've seen no official reports on this matter.

6. Could John have gotten the body out of the house without the neighbors seeing? I cannot see the body fitting into a suitcase, but I honestly don't know. Patsy would not have the physical strength to get the body out of the house.

Patsy would have no problem carrying JonBenet out of the house, she was only 6-years old.

7. John's business had dubious connections and dealings (, perhaps money laundering). I do not rule out the pedophile//prostitution angle, but why only frame Patsy?

The Grand Jury think that both John and Patsy were involved in JonBenet's homicide both were hit with COUNT VII (Accessory to a Crime) and COUNT IV (child abuse resulting in death).

8. Could be a coincidence that Patsy was framed? It would be more likely that they were trying to pretend that an old boyfriend of hers wanted revenge.

Christmas night in a remote basement wine-cellar seems disconnected from any prior boyfriend, i.e. no forensic evidence.

9. I believe the reports that Elizabeth did accuse John of sexual abuse. A few weeks or a few months later, she wound up dead in a "car accident." Since this was fully investigated, can we assume that it was truly an accident?

No such reports were ever made public. You can assume it was an accident, which for the purposes of investigating JonBenet's homicide has no relevant link.

10. I know about Nancy Krebs. Even if some of her details were exaggerated, it doesn't mean that Fleet/White were not involved in the sexual abuse.

Its just Fake News published to trash Fleet White's credibility. Also it's old, old and passe.

By the way, I'm a Liberal and not religious. I'm anti-, anti-prostitution, and anti-sexual exploitation - but not convinced that /prostitution was involved. I'm in Canada.

Any criminal activity linked with JonBenet's death will be constrained to her immediate family as there is zero forensic evidence relating to anyone outside of her house!

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Which is why it was probably not an accident. Then there is the sexual assault, how does that get explained away at the hospital?

.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your responses. Yes, that is what I meant. The nutty claims that Patsy or Burke struck JB on the head and they staged a "sexual crime" to cover it up. Obviously, since the family could have claimed that the girl hit her head on the bathtub, there's a great deal more to this. The nutty claims are ridiculous! From now on, I will ignore the nutty claims! And it's probably the Ramsey family that is promoting these nutty claims.

The very fact that the Ramseys (and probably the Whites and Fernies) staged it as a kidnapping and/or "sexual crime" illustrates that it was not an accident.

Thanks again. From now on, I will ignore the nutty claims!

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Patsy's script will differ from Fleet's in predictable features, from memory both scripts have been named in books highlighting this subject.

No, while I suspect Patsy involvement in the cover-up. What I meant was that Fleet White learned a certain handwriting style, which is markedly different from his usual handwriting. It was something that he learnt in naval training.

Regarding the pineapple - with this cast of characters, it would not shock me if JB was severely injured at the Whites, and given pineapple at the Ramsey residence. To sort of trick the investigation, into thinking that JB did not suffer any injuries at the White residence. JB may have been severely injured at the White residence.

All goes back to the same question: why not take the little girl to the hospital for her injuries? Because they could not explain the sexual assault at the hospital!

 

[PremeditatedCrime]

Could John or Patsy have gotten the body out of the house without the neighbors seeing?

Could either Patsy or John have gotten JB's body out of the house without neighbors seeing? Would JB's body fit in the suitcase? I do find it strange that the police were called PRIOR to Patsy telephoning the police.

 

[Tadpole12]

4. There was a "Oh, The Places You Will Go" Dr Seuss book and a semen-stained duvet in the suitcase.

Is the title of the Dr. Seuss book, sourced only to JAR's twitter,
a definite?

 

[UKGuy]

Is the title of the Dr. Seuss book, sourced only to JAR's twitter,
a definite?

Tadpole12,
That's a new title link for me? Was there not a crime-scene photograph displayed on some JonBenet documentary which somebody made a screen-grab of?

.