The Fall Of Kabul To The Taliban #2

[SugarQueen]

As a life long German Shepherd owner, I am infuriated. They let them loose in the airport!?! What are we going to hear next, that the Taliban is using them for target practice? Makes me sick.

I keep reading that the military released the dogs at the airport but nothing saying why, or what preceded it. What happened that made the release them rather than KSAR taking them back to the shelter?

 

[otto]

I can't answer that question the way you put it. If you mean how could the Taliban use it, my answer would be that the future they would use it to guarantee would be better for no one except themselves. I see a very bad ending to this for both the US and Afghanistan, in particular

eta: I've heard that the "industries" are opium and lithium (for electric batteries, hence the focus on "climate change.") The could likely use the arsenal to promote/protect those "industries," but that wouldn't guarantee a better future, so that really wouldn't answer the question either. jmo

The only industry in Afghanistan during the 1970s was bricks of hashish - carted West through Greece. Men squatted on the streets smoking hashish, telling the women to bring them food and do what they wanted. I'm not surprised that Opium is an industry given that China is next door.

Lithium is valuable for personal communication. Is there a wealth of lithium in Afghanistan? If so, the Taliban have choices for alliances.

 

[ringbearer]

The only industry in Afghanistan during the 1970s was bricks of hashish - carted West through Greece. Men squatted on the streets smoking hashish, telling the women to bring them food and do what they wanted. I'm not surprised that Opium is an industry given that China is next door.

Lithium is valuable for personal communication. Is there a wealth of lithium in Afghanistan? If so, the Taliban have choices for alliances.

I don't have any personal knowledge about lithium at the moment. It's just what I've heard. I'll look into it a little further. But the alliances are definitely the issue. My money is on China.

 

[ringbearer]

I want to mention again the new Hulu documentary on 9/11. I've previously watched and listened to probably a hundred hours of documentation and have never seen ANY of the stuff in this series. I'm on episode three and highly recommend it to everyone -- especially under the circumstances in Afghanistan with the anniversary approaching. Two things stand out. What it would be like to experience that kind of attack again, or perhaps live in realistic fear of it on the daily, and the compassion and bravery of all involved.

 

[otto]

It's not the equipment at the Airport that seems important to me. It's what they got at Bagram. But I'm having a sad that the Taliban feels betrayed though. omg, seriously?

Taliban feels betrayed after flying a black hawk around Kabul swinging around a man on rope before the evacuation deadline? On what grounds do the Taliban feel betrayed? Helicopters are not a National Asset. Could it be a language barrier regarding "national" asset?

Given the rather frantic looking evacuation from Kabul, one does question whether $83 billion of munitions could be disabled that fast. What was it ... ten days? two weeks? It took ten days for the Taliban to march through the country.

This is billions, not millions. Even if it was not a full $83 billion, even if only $20 billion was not demilitarized in the two weeks of panic (August 16-31), flying Black Hawks before the deadline was a show of what was left behind.

“ALL EQUIPMENT should be demanded to be immediately returned to the United States, and that includes every penny of the $85 billion dollars in cost.”

— Former President Donald Trump, in a statement, Aug 30
​

The other side of the story:

$82.9 billion comes from an estimate in the July 30 quarterly report by the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR) for all spending on the Afghanistan Security Forces Fund since the U.S. invasion in 2001.
...

U.S. military equipment was given to Afghan security forces over two decades. Tanks, vehicles, helicopters and other gear fell into the hands of the Taliban when the U.S.-trained force quickly collapsed. The value of these assets is unclear, but if the Taliban are unable to obtain spare parts, it may not be able to maintain them.

But the value of the equipment is not more than $80 billion. That’s the figure for all of the money spent on training and sustaining the Afghan military over 20 years. The equipment portion of that total is about $24 billion — certainly not small change — but the actual value of the equipment in the Taliban’s hands is probably much less than even that amount.
​

Fact check: No, the Taliban did not seize $83 billion of U.S. weapons

 

[Arkay]

I was reading through online material about the Taliban after they first took control of Afghanistan, way before 9/11.
All the women who had been dressed in Western styles without hijabs, wearing makeup and jewelry, without being required to have a male family member as a chaperone. Music, games, a regular lifestyle.

Then the Taliban came in, and all these freedoms disappeared. Even for men, so much was forbidden. They could be imprisoned if their beards were shaved, or they dressed in Western clothing, kite-flying was forbidden as a leisure activity which could lead to gambling, and about 1000 other mandates that made life impossible. Of course for women, life essentially stopped. No education, no going out unescorted by a male relative, no mixing of the sexes even if it was a doctor, wearing a full burqa to be completely covered, etc. Whippings, beatings, imprisonment and execution for all who disobeyed.

I also read that the Taliban view is a mixture of tribal and Pashtun culture, folded into their idea of Islam. We all know Afghanistan is a very tribal and warlord ruled nation, and they will fight to the death for their own tribe. It's no joke that Afghanistan is nicknamed the Graveyard of Empires. The Soviet Union couldn't control them, either.

Every now and then there have been respites of freedom. I would wish that the last 20 years would encourage Afghanis to demand their human rights, but I don't see it happening in any long-term form. IMO the country periodically reverts to its accustomed ways. I mean, it took about a minute for the Afghan army and their president to capitulate this time.

It is difficult to instill democratic ideals in a nation that believes in tribal leaders and warlords to make decisions for them. That, mixed with a number of the population that does indeed embrace a more radical form of Islamic practice. I fear for those who thirst for freedom and have not been able to leave.

Here's a picture from 1996. The view of Kabul through the burqa that women must again wear.

I truly thank God for the accident of birth that made me an American. Even with its imperfections. I'm a woman and I have a mother, a daughter, a sister, a niece and two granddaughters. I would shrivel and die if my female family members were forced to live this way, and had to be in near-slavery to our fathers, husbands, brothers, nephews and sons.

I respect the U.S., U.K, Canadian and all other military who sacrificed so much to try to bring change, yet it was all for naught, IMO.

Reversion to the mean---that is Afghanistan.

 

[ringbearer]

Taliban feels betrayed after flying a black hawk around Kabul swinging around a man on rope before the evacuation deadline? On what grounds do the Taliban feel betrayed? Helicopters are not a National Asset. Could it be a language barrier regarding "national" asset?

Given the rather frantic looking evacuation from Kabul, one does question whether $83 billion of munitions could be disabled that fast. What was it ... ten days? two weeks? It took ten days for the Taliban to march through the country.

This is billions, not millions. Even if it was not a full $83 billion, even if only $20 billion was not demilitarized in the two weeks of panic (August 16-31), flying Black Hawks before the deadline was a show of what was left behind.

“ALL EQUIPMENT should be demanded to be immediately returned to the United States, and that includes every penny of the $85 billion dollars in cost.”

— Former President Donald Trump, in a statement, Aug 30
​

The other side of the story:

$82.9 billion comes from an estimate in the July 30 quarterly report by the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR) for all spending on the Afghanistan Security Forces Fund since the U.S. invasion in 2001.
...

U.S. military equipment was given to Afghan security forces over two decades. Tanks, vehicles, helicopters and other gear fell into the hands of the Taliban when the U.S.-trained force quickly collapsed. The value of these assets is unclear, but if the Taliban are unable to obtain spare parts, it may not be able to maintain them.

But the value of the equipment is not more than $80 billion. That’s the figure for all of the money spent on training and sustaining the Afghan military over 20 years. The equipment portion of that total is about $24 billion — certainly not small change — but the actual value of the equipment in the Taliban’s hands is probably much less than even that amount.
​

Fact check: No, the Taliban did not seize $83 billion of U.S. weapons

<modsnip> They're not even claiming that the billions of dollars of military equipment was disabled. They're only saying that whatever was at the public airport when the US cleared out was disabled. That is NOTHING. And the Afghans we trained, or at least the majority of them, are still there, either working for the Taliban voluntarily or involuntarily. So we've turned over somewhere in the mega billions of value to the Taliban one way or the other. jmo

eta: I posted the link above about the majority of evacuees not being those who assisted the US and other Western allies

 

[BeachSky]

I want to mention again the new Hulu documentary on 9/11. I've previously watched and listened to probably a hundred hours of documentation and have never seen ANY of the stuff in this series. I'm on episode three and highly recommend it to everyone -- especially under the circumstances in Afghanistan with the anniversary approaching. Two things stand out. What it would be like to experience that kind of attack again, or perhaps live in realistic fear of it on the daily, and the compassion and bravery of all involved.

This one came out on Netflix today
Don’t know if the same. Very well done.

 

[ringbearer]

This one came out on Netflix today
Don’t know if the same. Very well done.

I don't think it's the same. The one on Hulu is called One Day in America. Thanks for the link

 

[ringbearer]

Following up on lithium in Afghanistan, apparently it's very old news from our friends at the NYT. Stunning.

U.S. Identifies Vast Mineral Riches in Afghanistan (Published 2010)


From the link:

The United States has discovered nearly $1 trillion in untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan, far beyond any previously known reserves and enough to fundamentally alter the Afghan economy and perhaps the Afghan war itself, according to senior American government officials.

The previously unknown deposits — including huge veins of iron, copper, cobalt, gold and critical industrial metals like lithium — are so big and include so many minerals that are essential to modern industry that Afghanistan could eventually be transformed into one of the most important mining centers in the world, the United States officials believe.

 

[otto]

American rescue clinic founder stays in Afghanistan to pursue evacuation for staff and animals left behind

According to this report Charlotte Maxwell-Jones is still stranded in Afghanistan along with her animals and staff. I hope they get out soon.

published September 1, 2021

"An American who founded an animal rescue clinic in Kabul is still in Afghanistan, trying to persuade the Taliban to let her retrieve animals released by the U.S. military and airlift them out of the country with the clinic's employees.

Charlotte Maxwell-Jones was unable to board a military evacuation flight with the animals or charter a private aircraft before international troops left earlier this week.

The U.S. military released the clinic's animals from their cages in an enclosed area at the Kabul airport that had previously been used by the former Afghan army, Maxwell-Jones and a Pentagon statement said."

"The Tennessee native has vowed to stay until she secures the evacuation of her staff, their family members and up to 250 cats and dogs. Maxwell-Jones said she has had eight charter planes canceled in recent days, costing her a substantial amount of money in nonrefundable deposits.

The entire group arrived at the airport together last week, but Taliban guards initially allowed only Maxwell-Jones and the dogs to enter. The employees were told to wait with the cats, she said.

In the end, only nine of the over 125 people associated with the clinic made it through the gates and left Afghanistan, she said. The cats returned to the clinic with staff members.

All the service members on the ground were very nice,” she said. “They helped take care of the animals; they took them out; they cuddled them. They were really, really great.

“But some of the higher-ups were like: ‘You’re using our resources. We need to get people out. Do you care about animals more than people?’ I didn’t ask to move animals instead of people. I said let’s move them in addition.”

The animals likely would have ridden in cargo spaces, she said.

Photos of some 125 dogs in carrier cages that Maxwell-Jones has been trying to ship out of Afghanistan have been circulating on social media along with accusations that American forces left their working dogs behind when they completed their withdrawal this week."

What will happen to the animal shelter if the dogs remains in place - in the animal shelter in Kabul, Afghanistan? Will the dogs be slaughtered by the Taliban? Is there evidence that this will happen? Are the Taliban roaming the streets randomly killing cats, dogs and people, or are the animals currently alive and safe?

It's a bit confusing.

 

[Arkay]

@ringbearer and @BeachSky

Thank you for your suggestions about the 9/11 documentaries. I do think it is critical for us to remember precisely what happened that day, particularly now that the Taliban is in control again and will shelter Al-Qaeda as they did before.

I’m more of a reader than a TV or movie person, and I don’t have Hulu or Netflix.
I don’t love everything about CNN, but they are running some 9/11 documentaries this Sunday, and one of them is IMO a must-see. It’s the documentary by the Naudet brothers who were just filming a rookie firefighter, and accidentally caught the first plane attack. The only picture/video of the first plane, I believe. After that the documentary captures what it was like that day here in NYC and in Washington D.C.

If anyone here is more inclined to read books, IMO two of the best are 102 Minutes: the Fight for Survival Inside the Twin Towers, and also The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11. If I recall correctly, that book included the woman who was burned by jet fuel at the bus stop and died a month later.

We would be remembering 9/11 now anyway, but this disaster in Afghanistan right now at the 20th anniversary makes it all the more important that we grasp what has happened, and the implications for the future.

 

[ringbearer]

@ringbearer and @BeachSky

Thank you for your suggestions about the 9/11 documentaries. I do think it is critical for us to remember precisely what happened that day, particularly now that the Taliban is in control again and will shelter Al-Qaeda as they did before.

I’m more of a reader than a TV or movie person, and I don’t have Hulu or Netflix.
I don’t love everything about CNN, but they are running some 9/11 documentaries this Sunday, and one of them is IMO a must-see. It’s the documentary by the Naudet brothers who were just filming a rookie firefighter, and accidentally caught the first plane attack. The only picture/video of the first plane, I believe. After that the documentary captures what it was like that day here in NYC and in Washington D.C.

If anyone here is more inclined to read books, IMO two of the best are 102 Minutes: the Fight for Survival Inside the Twin Towers, and also The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11. If I recall correctly, that book included the woman who was burned by jet fuel at the bus stop and died a month later.

We would be remembering 9/11 now anyway, but this disaster in Afghanistan right now at the 20th anniversary makes it all the more important that we grasp what has happened, and the implications for the future.

@Arkay, I also am very much a reader and not a TV or movie person. I haven't had cable in years and only have Hulu because I have teenaged kids. I moved recently and when we were carrying and emptying boxes my son was like have you seriously read all of these books! I have thousands. And undergrad degree in English. I've also watched the documentary you mentioned several times. Take my word for it, this new one needs to be seen. For example, I had no idea that the military planes scrambled to intercept the other plane headed to DC (the one that was crashed by the passengers in PA) knew they were on a suicide mission with one to hit the cockpit of the commercial jet and the other to take the tail. They had no missiles on board because there was no time. The female pilot is interviewed and she discusses all of this. There is SOOO much more. Very compelling even for those of us who like to create the visuals from the words on the page.

 

[Arkay]

@ringbearer

Someone after my own heart! I have my B.A. and M.A. in English, and I taught English for 25 years.

The documentary does sound intriguing. I have a teenaged granddaughter, but no Hulu. My sister is in Jersey and does have Hulu, so I’ll catch up with it there.

Staying on topic, I think it’s tremendously important for younger people to understand 9/11, because without that knowledge the loss of Afghanistan might not be as impactful. They may not realize how intertwined 9/11 is with past events there, such as when the U.S. inadvertently helped Bin Laden to become what he was, as we armed him and Al-Qaeda against the Soviet Union.

What is indelible to us is just history to those who were born after September 11th. As my career continued I began having students who were born after it, and every year on or as near to 9/11 as possible, I showed a documentary. I had to do it sneakily since after Common Core, we weren’t permitted to deviate from the curriculum.

I’m certain that our military and those of our allies are going to be suffering now from PTSD, survivor’s guilt, depression and a sense of loss due to how the evacuation played out. Praying that they all will have the strength to thrive.

 

[neesaki]

Read the original quote again. They're not even claiming that the billions of dollars of military equipment was disabled. They're only saying that whatever was at the public airport when the US cleared out was disabled. That is NOTHING. And the Afghans we trained, or at least the majority of them, are still there, either working for the Taliban voluntarily or involuntarily. So we've turned over somewhere in the mega billions of value to the Taliban one way or the other. jmo

eta: I posted the link above about the majority of evacuees not being those who assisted the US and other Western allies

Interesting news here regarding the billions worth of military equipment left in the hands of the Taliban:

Biden Administration Erased Afghan Weapons Reports From Federal Websites

 

[SuziQ]

If you want an idea of how our Government hides things or the media ignores things, look at the below links. We had the biggest conflict with Russia since the Korean war in 2018. That should scare everyone. My son was in Weapons Co. in the USMC embedded with the Green Berets In Syria to provide them with transport and protection. My son's mission was so secretive that I didn't even know where he was deployed. I never saw anything in the media about this and only learned of the incident after my son got home. There is very little information out there about this. I will post a link to the most accurate reporting in the New York times. It is behind a pay wall but a good accurate read. The MSM largely ignored this incident. The wiki version white washes the incident. And not to mention all the green on blue attacks committed by the supposed ally fighters we were trying to help. My son witnessed one incident and missed getting shot by five minutes. He called me on a satellite phone in the middle of the night he was so upset. Our allies, the SDF, were racking their weapons at the Marines at this outpost daily and the Marines had to suck it up. It doesn't matter what the terrorists call themselves, friendlies or not. They all hate Westerners and join together against us. Do not believe when Even our allies, when we are told the Taliban will hunt ISIS for us. It is not true.

Bottom line, with what I know and have experienced, things are headed into a very bad situation. China and Russia are a heartbeat away. Pay attention. God Bless everyone and say your prayers.

Battle of Khasham - Wikipedia

How a 4-Hour Battle Between Russian Mercenaries and U.S. Commandos Unfolded in Syria (Published 2018)

 

[SuziQ]

Btw, my son helped evacuate the U.S. Embassy in Yemen. You would be shocked to know how often embassies have a drawdown of staff and full out evacuations of citizens and allies. But we never hear about it. You know why? Because they are done correctly and efficiently. There is no excuse for the for the fiasco in Afghanistan. And while they left vehicles behind in Yemen. They didn't leave so much as a paperclip. They even smashed their weapons with a sledgehammer on the tarmac. No excuse for Afghanistan.

Yemen terror threat prompts State Department to evacuate some embassy staff, warn Americans to leave country "immediately" - CBS News

 

[SuziQ]

And about the Dogs abandoned, does it matter who owned them? Private contractors or US military? The dogs were put in the situation by the current Administration. Just like the people left behind. End of story. And I am sorry to report no go news about canine heroes as of last check.

 

[GatorFL]

Taliban feels betrayed after flying a black hawk around Kabul swinging around a man on rope before the evacuation deadline?

I don't think that video was recent.

 

[sds71]

@bsarwary

Afghan pilot flying this is someone I have known over the years. He was trained in the US and UAE, he confirmed to me that he flew the Blackhawk helicopter. Taliban fighter seen here was trying to install Taliban flag from air but it didn’t work in the end.

[URL='https://twitter.com/Shayan86']@Shayan86

A viral video claiming to show a man being brutally hanged from a helicopter in Kandahar was likely an attempt to fix a flag over a public building, not a hanging. A separate video of the incident shows the man is clearly alive and waving in the air
[/URL]
Afghanistan: Taliban seek to end rebel valley resistance - BBC News