The GB4 and Shannan Gilbert-Connecting the dots

[Clem Snide]

BBM

Still...that's pretty damned convenient for him, wouldn't you say?

Yes, I suppose it could be, but keep in mind he did lose one of his legs in a car accident, so chronic pain from that is very believable.

Not to repeat myself, but the lie detector has really very little legal value. They can't arrest you for failing it, not can they clear you for passing it.


Now if you'll excuse me, I believe it's Beer 0'Clock.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Yep, his says Board of Family Practice and Board of Emergency Medicine. Unlike all of the surgeons that I looked up, their profiles say Board of XXXX Surgery.

Translated, he specialized in Emergency Medicine as in Emergency Rooms. Opposite to doctos, who specialize in certain fields like surgery (always operating), inner medicine (always prescribing pills), orthopaedics (always working bones also operating on them) and so on. But it also means, he went in his youth through the general assistance time as and M.D., means, he cut, he sawed, he prescribed pills and probably also brought some babies to the world in a big hospital doing assistance time training. So yes, if he is an M.D., regardless of what kind, he would know how to dismember a body. But then, any butcher, any farmer somewhere in rural parts of the county, any veterinarian, any taxidermist and who else knows, could do that too. It's not that much of an art to cut off limbs if you have the anatomical knowledge and can hold nausea under control.

 

[Reannan]

For what it is worth, I lost faith in the polygraph test after the Riley Fox case. In June 2004, Riley, a beautiful 3 year old little girl was abducted from her home, raped, and then drowned in a creek. Her mother was out of town that horrible night, and her father, Kevin Fox, was interrogated for 14 hours and arrested for her murder on October 27, 2004. He confessed!!! Perfect example of a coerced confession. Part of the reason he confessed was because he "failed" the polygraph. He served 8 months in prison for the rape and drowning of his beautiful 3 year old daughter that he loved. His wife never wavered from her support of Kevin - she never believed he had killed their daughter. DNA testing from the rape kit, and from duct tape used to bind Riley eventually cleared Kevin Fox. The true murderer, Scott Wayne Eby, was arrested 6 years latter when his DNA was tested after another rape. The Riley Fox case is a classic study of shoddy police work, and false accusations which get out of control. You can google the case or read more about it at these links:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-11-20/news/0711190728_1_lie-detector-test-polygraph-riley

http://www.cncpunishment.com/forums...2004-IL-Murder-of-Riley-Fox-Sentenced-to-LWOP

 

[dcgrumpy]

Translated, he specialized in Emergency Medicine as in Emergency Rooms. Opposite to doctos, who specialize in certain fields like surgery (always operating), inner medicine (always prescribing pills), orthopaedics (always working bones also operating on them) and so on. But it also means, he went in his youth through the general assistance time as and M.D., means, he cut, he sawed, he prescribed pills and probably also brought some babies to the world in a big hospital doing assistance time training. So yes, if he is an M.D., regardless of what kind, he would know how to dismember a body. But then, any butcher, any farmer somewhere in rural parts of the county, any veterinarian, any taxidermist and who else knows, could do that too. It's not that much of an art to cut off limbs if you have the anatomical knowledge and can hold nausea under control.

Actually he's a DO not an MD but that doesn't matter. I didn't say he didn't go through the same training as other doctors or know how to dismember a body. My only point was that he's not a surgeon, like some posters have claimed. Truthspider seemed to think that CPH performed surgery on Jane Doe.

 

[scandi]

All good points.

Going with that train of thought, that's a strike against Brewer, imo. I'm a streetwise girl...no way in hell would I have trustedBrewer without some kind of backup. And obviously, Shannan didn't either.

JMO

Hi there, I have questions about him too, hiring her to come down to his house and then not having sex with her. She was there for approx 3 hours Doing what? Very odd I think. I don't think he hired her for someone else at the 'partee' but there is more there than meets the eye IMO. Maybe something hinky and she wanted no part of it?

 

[scandi]

Translated, he specialized in Emergency Medicine as in Emergency Rooms. Opposite to doctos, who specialize in certain fields like surgery (always operating), inner medicine (always prescribing pills), orthopaedics (always working bones also operating on them) and so on. But it also means, he went in his youth through the general assistance time as and M.D., means, he cut, he sawed, he prescribed pills and probably also brought some babies to the world in a big hospital doing assistance time training. So yes, if he is an M.D., regardless of what kind, he would know how to dismember a body. But then, any butcher, any farmer somewhere in rural parts of the county, any veterinarian, any taxidermist and who else knows, could do that too. It's not that much of an art to cut off limbs if you have the anatomical knowledge and can hold nausea under control.

How interesting Peter as we learned in reading a previous link here about the body parts found by the Hollywood sign that killers dismembering a body is really very rare. Stated by an expert on SK's:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/19/hollywood-sign-head-severed-dismemberment-california_n_1217132.html?ref=mostpopular

Snippet " . . . Safarik and his business partner, retired FBI agent Robert Ressler, are the founders of Forensic Behavioral Services International, a 16-year-old company that provides expert opinion and analysis to law enforcement agencies, attorneys, Fortune 500 companies and foreign entities.

Based on his vast knowledge of criminal behavior, Safarik said the victim's dismemberment likely took place at another location.

"It takes a lot of work to dismember someone," he said. "They would need to do it where they could have plenty of time and privacy to complete the job."

Despite similar crimes portrayed on TV or in the movies, dismemberment is not a common practice among killers, explained the veteran investigator.

"Dismemberment is rare. It only occurs in an exceptionally small number of cases," Safarik said".

 

[Peter Brendt]

Actually he's a DO not an MD but that doesn't matter. I didn't say he didn't go through the same training as other doctors or know how to dismember a body. My only point was that he's not a surgeon, like some posters have claimed. Truthspider seemed to think that CPH performed surgery on Jane Doe.

Okay, got it. And sorry for the misunderstanding. English is in fact my third language and sometimes, I'm also not fit with all those titles ans abbreviations.

 

[Peter Brendt]

How interesting Peter as we learned in reading a previous link here about the body parts found by the Hollywood sign that killers dismembering a body is really very rare. Stated by an expert on SK's:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/19/hollywood-sign-head-severed-dismemberment-california_n_1217132.html?ref=mostpopular

Snippet " . . . Safarik and his business partner, retired FBI agent Robert Ressler, are the founders of Forensic Behavioral Services International, a 16-year-old company that provides expert opinion and analysis to law enforcement agencies, attorneys, Fortune 500 companies and foreign entities.

Based on his vast knowledge of criminal behavior, Safarik said the victim's dismemberment likely took place at another location.

"It takes a lot of work to dismember someone," he said. "They would need to do it where they could have plenty of time and privacy to complete the job."

Despite similar crimes portrayed on TV or in the movies, dismemberment is not a common practice among killers, explained the veteran investigator.

"Dismemberment is rare. It only occurs in an exceptionally small number of cases," Safarik said".

Well, I agree to that. The number of people who could is definitively higher than the number of people who would.
However, dismembering happens with three kinds of SKs, that is so often forgotten. The really rare kind is the staging kind. Of all the cases, I studied over time, I have seen that about a dozen times, and my files go back till 15th century (not claiming they are complete though). Staging dismemberers are not rare, they are extreme rare. London Torso II is probably the best known, he was a contemporary of Jack the Ripper.
The second kind does it as part of their body disposal and as forensic counter measure. Robert Berdella for example. Or Harmann, or Rifkin or ... well, you get the gist. Not so rare.
And of course, there is the occasional case of the mixed motivation. Jeffrey Dahmer dismembered his victims and disposed of then in the house trash. But some parts from some victims he kept. And Ted Bundy drove a head around for 120 miles. Normally, in such cases, you will find aside of rape and killing also body defiling aka necrophilia.
So if I add that up, a staging dismemberer as Manorville is extreme rare while dismembering over all types is not so rare. So fine, I'm not an expert in a TV interview, but then, I can add and this number adds up.

 

[shadowraiths]

the lie detector has really very little legal value

Actually, the LDT has zero legal value in New York, a Frye State. ( link ) Recall, the Frye standard is the result of a precedent setting 1923 case ( Frye v United States, 54 App. D.C. 46, 293 F. 1013 [1923], link ) as it pertains to expert testimony. In fact, Frye v US involved an attempt by the defendant to exonerate himself due to the results of an LDT.

Even so, LDTs, if properly applied, can still be useful when trying to rule people in/out as a POI. Though, not for the reasons commonly thought. In reality, their passing/not passing has not a thing to do with... well, anything. That is, outside of, perhaps, making them sweat... and, if guilty, pushing them in the direction of confessing to a crime.

Otherwise put, it is the psychology behind the LDT that can be useful. Otoh, if that psychology is improperly applied, then you end up with cases like Riley Fox, where the dad actually confessed to a crime he did not commit. ( link )

 

[truthspider]

Actually he's a DO not an MD but that doesn't matter. I didn't say he didn't go through the same training as other doctors or know how to dismember a body. My only point was that he's not a surgeon, like some posters have claimed. Truthspider seemed to think that CPH performed surgery on Jane Doe.

I actually did not say that. I think he knew her and knew of her condition. But there are many different ways he could have come to know her.

I think the serial killer has multiple paraphilias and I think her injury/condition is what caught his interest. His interest in her could have been emotional or erotic like abasiophilia or acrotomophilia. Or maybe it was as simple as she was vulnerable because of her medical condition, the injured one in the pack is easy prey.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Actually, the LDT has zero legal value in New York, a Frye State. ( link ) Recall, the Frye standard is the result of a precedent setting 1923 case ( Frye v United States, 54 App. D.C. 46, 293 F. 1013 [1923], link ) as it pertains to expert testimony. In fact, Frye v US involved an attempt by the defendant to exonerate himself due to the results of an LDT.

Even so, LDTs, if properly applied, can still be useful when trying to rule people in/out as a POI. Though, not for the reasons commonly thought. In reality, their passing/not passing has not a thing to do with... well, anything. That is, outside of, perhaps, making them sweat... and, if guilty, pushing them in the direction of confessing to a crime.

Otherwise put, it is the psychology behind the LDT that can be useful. Otoh, if that psychology is improperly applied, then you end up with cases like Riley Fox, where the dad actually confessed to a crime he did not commit. ( link )

People are more afraid of a machine than of a human lie detector. What does that say about people?

 

[the quiet girl]

What we need is a rl Dr. Cal Lightman.

for those of you who do not get the reference its the main guy from Lie To Me

 

[Peter Brendt]

I actually did not say that. I think he knew her and knew of her condition. But there are many different ways he could have come to know her.

I think the serial killer has multiple paraphilias and I think her injury/condition is what caught his interest. His interest in her could have been emotional or erotic like abasiophilia or acrotomophilia. Or maybe it was as simple as she was vulnerable because of her medical condition, the injured one in the pack is easy prey.

I don't think, SG was killed by a serial killer. Unrelated and accidentally in the same area.Not the first time such things occur. What happened IN MY OPINION, is Brewer threw a little party. Can be, he had really not the attention to have sex with her, that his intention is to watch someone else to have sex with her. That would explain the presence of the drifter in the first place, but things went out of control. SG got a bad trip and ran into a state of paranoia. Which explains the time differences of the 911 call and the time Coletti saw her actually running.
Brewer, probably with some experience in drug abuse, but not much medical knowledge, panicked and called the one doctor, he knew and on whose discretion, he could rely. But in the meantime, SG was off, first to Coletti's house (it was just on her flight way). Coletti lied when he said, he let her in, but she ran away. Nobody there would let an obviously drugged disheveled girl inside his house. So SG went on, into the swamp while Pak was behind her to catch her again. But he didn't find her and so she escaped into the reeds and stuff. She probably died from drowning or exposure. But my bet would be drowning. Because someone found her, Pak, Brewer, who knows? Someone, who has not much experience as killer and thus thought, she can lay there forever without being found. Someone stupid enough to throw the things she left in the house in the swamp right near to the body. Someone, who red, the search ist still on, someone being afraid day by day for at least a year, but still not able to take the remains and bring her away.
What do you think? Would a SK, who dropped four at a beach and left nothing behind for the police, suddenly go and throw a purse next to the victim in? Would he, who had transported at least four dead bodies already, have qualms to move SG to a safer place?

As far as it comes to paraphilias, if he would have abasiophilia, then the GB4 would be not prostitutes but persons in wheelchairs or at least on crutches. They are not. And the very same for acrotomophilia, none of them was an amputee. And the victims would have to be amputees before he strikes or the initial spark would lack for him.

 

[Peter Brendt]

What we need is a rl Dr. Cal Lightman.

for those of you who do not get the reference its the main guy from Lie To Me

Really? If this guy would be around, chances in rl are 1000:1 they wouldn't hire him. And if, they wouldn't give him all the information "to protect their investigation" and if he, despite all that obstacles would find something, LE would ignore it.
As a matter of fact, LE is pretty good with "normal" crimes, but way over their head when it comes to SKs and that includes the current generation of BAU agents. Which explains, why it takes one to two decades for them to catch one and they only get them if they male mistakes like speeding, parking in front of hydrants and such nonsense.

 

[the quiet girl]

Really? If this guy would be around, chances in rl are 1000:1 they wouldn't hire him. And if, they wouldn't give him all the information "to protect their investigation" and if he, despite all that obstacles would find something, LE would ignore it.
As a matter of fact, LE is pretty good with "normal" crimes, but way over their head when it comes to SKs and that includes the current generation of BAU agents. Which explains, why it takes one to two decades for them to catch one and they only get them if they male mistakes like speeding, parking in front of hydrants and such nonsense.

hence the reason why he is needed :twocents:

 

[dc20015]

Hi there, I have questions about him too, hiring her to come down to his house and then not having sex with her. She was there for approx 3 hours Doing what? Very odd I think. I don't think he hired her for someone else at the 'partee' but there is more there than meets the eye IMO. Maybe something hinky and she wanted no part of it?

We have no idea whether he had sex with her or not. Its his word and he has a motive to say that because paying someone for sex is illegal and his friends aren't going to tattle on him unless forced to. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. SG certainly can't provide her side of that story now. It's just something we don't really know.

 

[Dwntwnslim]

What we need is a rl Dr. Cal Lightman.

for those of you who do not get the reference its the main guy from Lie To Me

Who is Cal Lightman?

 

[dc20015]

Who is Cal Lightman?

My thoughts exactly, but Google was my friend. Looks like its someone from the show Lie To Me.

 

[Peter Brendt]

We have no idea whether he had sex with her or not. Its his word and he has a motive to say that because paying someone for sex is illegal and his friends aren't going to tattle on him unless forced to. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. SG certainly can't provide her side of that story now. It's just something we don't really know.

Well, we know, he ordered a prostitute to his house while ha had the drifter there and he risked the question about his sex intentions in the lie detector test and he said, he had no intention and it cam back inconclusive (which is one of the two points, that made the whole shebang inconclusive).
So common sense, he ordered her for some kind of sex. That doesn't necessary mean, HE wanted to sleep with her.

 

[Peter Brendt]

My thoughts exactly, but Google was my friend. Looks like its someone from the show Lie To Me.

One of those super-duper-hyper profilers in a cable show. "Lies" something or the other, forgot the complete name of the show. Admittedly, I gave up on a lot TV shows about serial killers when Dexter created kind of a shitload of fiber evidence as "forensic countermeasure".