The Grand Jury & Trial

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #781
I think Ross is a jerk with many adjectives you can add in support (selfish, immature, etc). But my biggest fear is if we send a jerk that loved his son to prison for many yrs that honestly forgot his son. A father that didn't get to attend his son's funeral. A dad that has spent 12 months behind bars. Now, conversely, if testimony proves premeditated, I am ok with DP or LWOP. I think it is a very subjective case with a few grey areas that will be difficult to get 12 jurors arriving with same verdict.
He probably deserves 24-36 months for just being a lousy husband.
 
  • #782
It doesn't take much to dislike Ross IMO. The prosecution successfully argued that the sexting went to motive. The text Ross sent to a woman while he and Cooper were eating breakfast is pretty compelling:

About 10 minutes before Cooper was left in the car, investigators said Harris used an app called Whisper and responded to a woman writing about how she didn't want to be a wife or mother anymore.

"He responds at 9:15 that morning, 'My wife gets upset when I want to go out with friends,'" Stoddard testified.

"And did he make another statement that specifically goes to motive." the prosecutor asked.

"He does. 'I love my son and all but we both need escapes.' And that was done at 9:15:33," Stoddard said.

At that time, according to records and video, Harris was at Chick-fil-A having breakfast with Cooper, Stoddard testified.


http://legacy.11alive.com/story/new...ry-split-sexting-and-murder-charges/73807728/

While the to rticular text broke no laws (it was with a married woman not a minor) it really does point to him being unhappy in his marriage and as a father and so it could support a motive for Ross wanting to rid himself of Cooper. And in order to paint the whole picture the prosecution needs to include all the sexting. The judge agreed but yikes, IMO it's going to be difficult for at least some of the jurors to look beyond the moral issues. And it's not like he was checking sports scores that morning, the guy couldn't even put it on hold long enough to enjoy a meal with his son.

P.S. Some idle thoughts of my own: I wonder how Dr. Diamond will spin the sexting if he testifies. Part of fogotten baby syndrome includes a "distraction" of some kind that disrupts the normal routine. How exactly can he explain that Ross was distracted that morning because he was texting a woman about how he was unhappy with his role as husband and father?


IMO his reply to that text is more exonerating than incriminating. An incriminating reply would be-- yah, I don't want to be a husband or father anymore either.

He didn't say that. He said his wife gets upset when he goes out with friends. That's a plain vanilla, garden variety spousal complaint, IMO, only interesting in that it is so much lower in intensity than the comment he was responding to.

Did the fact he was sexting etc. mean he was unhappy in his marriage? Who knows? Some husbands that cheat consider themselves happily -enough married. Others cheat but would never dream of leaving their wives, for any number of reasons.

The average unhappy spouse gets a divorce. The very unusual unhappy spouse kills his or her spouse to make the marriage end.

To deliberately kill one's child because of an unhappy marriage? Call me skeptical for that as motive.

How could he have forgotten his son minutes after referring to him in a text? Maybe because he wasn't even thinking about his wife or son when he wrote it, and was thinking instead about how to play whatever woman he was texting?
 
  • #783
  • #784
Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 4m4 minutes ago
Juror 18 breaks down while discussing brother's murder #hotcardeath #rossHarris
0 retweets 0 likes
Reply Retweet
Like
More
Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 9m9 minutes ago
Juror 18 says it would be "difficult" to be impartial #RossHarris #hotcardeath
0 retweets 0 likes
Reply Retweet
Like
More
Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 9m9 minutes ago
Juror 18, magazine writer, says family living in Chicago has followed #RossHarris case #hotcardeath
 
  • #785
Both sides need to look over the questionaires in this weekend. They need to eliminate a lot of jurors from being questioned based on their answers.
 
  • #786
Thanks for all the updates today!
 
  • #787
I am definitely worried about the outcome of this trial. There's never been someone convicted for intentionally leaving their child in a hot car, and received a significant sentence for it. The defense just has to put doubt in the juror's minds...Is it possibly you are sending a father away for life, a father who made a horrible mistake?

I think he is either getting the maximum punishment or he's getting off...I can't see him being sentenced to like 5-10 years. That wouldn't make any sense. Oh we think you premediated the murder of your son, who died in a horrific manner, okay 10 years sounds good enough...or we think your son died accidentally, so we'll give you 10 years...for what?



First, what charge would he be convicted on? All but one require that the jury believe he knowingly left Cooper in the car to die. The distinction between those charges is otherwise technical.

And then there's second degree cruelty to children (in GA, punishable for up to 10 years). The State wouldn't have to prove premed or intent or even that he knew Cooper was in the car.

The standard, though, would be criminal negligence, which isn't the same thing as simply forgetting Cooper was there.

My prediction is even if the jury thinks there is reasonable doubt they're likely to overlook whatever technicalities and convict him on the second degree child charges.

"Died accidentally so 10 years for what"? Because I think he's an extraordinarily unsympathetic defendant, because that poor jury will have seen photos I refuse to try to imagine and that jurors won't be unscathed, and because if not in a legal sense, I think most folks would find it just that he was punished for what he did, accident or not, especially since he didn't and hasn't demonstrated the kind of grief most expect to see.
 
  • #788
Laughing said:
I hope the prosecution arranges for a car, same made & model, equipped with a car seat, same make & model, with Cooper-sized doll strapped in.

Each juror required to back said car into parking space...to see how close their elbow is to Cooper's head.

From what I recall of the Scott Peterson trial - Lacy Peterson his wife (here in California) - the prosecutors or defense had his fishing boat on display, BUT the jurors could NOT get into the boat. I don't think they'll let the jurors even sit in the car... but maybe Georgia has other "rules" on that. JMO! but I hope I'm wrong and the Jurors DO get to get inside the car...

:)
 
  • #789
First, what charge would he be convicted on? All but one require that the jury believe he knowingly left Cooper in the car to die. The distinction between those charges is otherwise technical.

And then there's second degree cruelty to children (in GA, punishable for up to 10 years). The State wouldn't have to prove premed or intent or even that he knew Cooper was in the car.

The standard, though, would be criminal negligence, which isn't the same thing as simply forgetting Cooper was there.

My prediction is even if the jury thinks there is reasonable doubt they're likely to overlook whatever technicalities and convict him on the second degree child charges.

"Died accidentally so 10 years for what"? Because I think he's an extraordinarily unsympathetic defendant, because that poor jury will have seen photos I refuse to try to imagine and that jurors won't be unscathed, and because if not in a legal sense, I think most folks would find it just that he was punished for what he did, accident or not, especially since he didn't and hasn't demonstrated the kind of grief most expect to see.

While I disagree that Ross' text of "I love my son and all but we both need escapes" exonerates him I do agree that he's a very unsympathetic defendant. This case reminds me a little of 15-month-old Benjamin Seitz whose dad left him in a hot car. Dad was charged with criminally negligent homicide, punishable by a max of one year. The dad eventually took an Alford plea and was given a one-year suspended sentence. The judge in that case said he felt the dad had suffered enough.

What's interesting in the Seitz case is that like Leanna, the mom did not want to see Benjamin's body either, though she said it was because she couldn't stand to see him like that and wanted to remember him as he was before. Also, the dad stopped for coffee after forgetting to drop Benjamin at day care and then later he actually drove the car to lunch without realizing Benjamin was still in his car seat. And then he drove to the day care after work and still didn't notice. Yet the DA went with negligence, maybe in part because the parents did present as sympathetic, grieving people.

IMO Ross' case might have gone the same way - negligence vs. malice murder - if it wasn't for the Internet searches and the posting on a child free forum and the sexting. But also, like you say, he doesn't present himself the way we expect. Neither he nor Leanna elicited much sympathy from the public. I think it's going to be hard for the jurors to see Ross as a loving husband and father because of the sexting and his online posts. Hopefully the jurors will take their job seriously and weigh all the evidence carefully.
 
  • #790
One thing that has crossed my mind is that the sexting with other women is not a motive for murder but rather, a cause of mental distraction.

I know the most popular opinion is that he intentionally did this. But there is a part of me that wonders if he is just a jerk who actually forgot his kid in the car. I'm trying to figure out what makes him so different from all the cases profiled in that WaPo article.

1. There was not a significant change in routine that morning - he took Cooper to daycare nearly every day, and they ate breakfast at Chik-Fil-A 2-3 times a month

2. Cooper is quite a lot older than many of the children accidentally forgotten; more verbal; and it's HIGHLY unlikely that he fell asleep in the two minutes between CFA and JRH's work.

3. JRH had watched a video on pets dying in hot cars merely days before leaving Cooper in a hot car

4. JRH said he practiced "Look Back" often, in order to make sure he didn't leave Cooper in the car

5. JRH said that leaving Cooper in a hot car was his biggest fear

6. JRH had made sure to take his new guitar inside work not long before leaving Cooper in the car, because he knew the intense heat would damage the guitar

7. JRH had also searched "how to survive in prison"

8. Cooper had outgrown his car seat. They had a new one, but it was in LH's car. JRH told Det Stoddard that he knew all the specifications on Cooper's car seat. Yet the straps were set at the lowest possible level (infant level) meaning that they would have been very tight against Cooper, ensuring he couldn't possibly get free from the car seat

9. His wife's first instinct was to assume Cooper had been left in the car as soon as she found out he wasn't at daycare

10. JRH didn't even call 911 himself after discovering Cooper in the car, and once police arrived he was uncooperative and belligerent with them

11. He was asking his brother about cashing in Cooper's life insurance policies (he had two, which is somewhat unusual but not unheard of) within a day or two of Cooper's death

12. When informed of the murder charge against him, he said to the Detective "but there was no malicious intent", meaning he had familiarized himself with the possible charges he might face

13. His wife asked "did you say too much?" when she was allowed to see him at the police station

14. He told one of the women he was talking to online that his conscience never bothered him about cheating on his wife and being deceptive

15. Per the search warrants, JRH told investigators he had researched "child deaths inside vehicles and what temperature it needs to be for that to occur" - and Cooper was left in the car on the hottest day so far that summer

So......those are just a few reasons off the top of my head as to what makes this case different than the ones in the WaPo article.
 
  • #791
1. There was not a significant change in routine that morning - he took Cooper to daycare nearly every day, and they ate breakfast at Chik-Fil-A 2-3 times a month

2. Cooper is quite a lot older than many of the children accidentally forgotten; more verbal; and it's HIGHLY unlikely that he fell asleep in the two minutes between CFA and JRH's work.

3. JRH had watched a video on pets dying in hot cars merely days before leaving Cooper in a hot car

4. JRH said he practiced "Look Back" often, in order to make sure he didn't leave Cooper in the car

5. JRH said that leaving Cooper in a hot car was his biggest fear

6. JRH had made sure to take his new guitar inside work not long before leaving Cooper in the car, because he knew the intense heat would damage the guitar

7. JRH had also searched "how to survive in prison"

8. Cooper had outgrown his car seat. They had a new one, but it was in LH's car. JRH told Det Stoddard that he knew all the specifications on Cooper's car seat. Yet the straps were set at the lowest possible level (infant level) meaning that they would have been very tight against Cooper, ensuring he couldn't possibly get free from the car seat

9. His wife's first instinct was to assume Cooper had been left in the car as soon as she found out he wasn't at daycare

10. JRH didn't even call 911 himself after discovering Cooper in the car, and once police arrived he was uncooperative and belligerent with them

11. He was asking his brother about cashing in Cooper's life insurance policies (he had two, which is somewhat unusual but not unheard of) within a day or two of Cooper's death

12. When informed of the murder charge against him, he said to the Detective "but there was no malicious intent", meaning he had familiarized himself with the possible charges he might face

13. His wife asked "did you say too much?" when she was allowed to see him at the police station

14. He told one of the women he was talking to online that his conscience never bothered him about cheating on his wife and being deceptive

15. Per the search warrants, JRH told investigators he had researched "child deaths inside vehicles and what temperature it needs to be for that to occur" - and Cooper was left in the car on the hottest day so far that summer

So......those are just a few reasons off the top of my head as to what makes this case different than the ones in the WaPo article.

Excellent post. There is just so much that points to murder and guilt.
 
  • #792
There was something else someone mentioned a while back.. I think it was with regard to Justin having to take a left or right turn seconds after driving out of the restaurant that would have him on his way to drop Cooper off. I think one of our lawyers mentioned it.. Could he really have forgotten about Cooper in those few seconds? I really doubt it.
 
  • #793
Gitana posted this in 2014, but I think it's still helpful!

Here's what I wrote, guys, that may explain it better. (It's not perfect but it's pretty good):

This is what they would need to find in order to find him guilty of felony murder:

1. Ross Harris knew the likely consequences of forgetting or leaving Cooper in a hot car for hours. He had a reasonable "foresight" of the probable injuries of being left in a hot car.
2. He deliberately or recklessly disregarded the consequences of forgetting Cooper or was neglectfully indifferent to Cooper's rights and safety (did not care).
3. As a result of Ross Harris' reckless disregard of the consequences of leaving Cooper in a hot car, or as a result of his neglectful indifference to the rights and safety of Cooper, Cooper died.
4. Cooper died in a cruel and/or excessively painful manner.

It is unnecessary to find that a) Ross intended to kill Cooper. b) Ross intended to cause serious bodily harm to Cooper.

Can they find that it was a pure accident? Well, that depends on what you mean by accident. Is it an accident if a person forgets their children in car because they decided to get super high? They know it is dangerous. They should be more vigilant, but they are reckless or indifferent about the safety of their children, because their own needs, their own desires to go get wasted are more important?

Although that is not the situation here, that is a situation that could result in the same charges and it is one in which the actual death or the harm resulting from being baked in a hot car, was not intentional.

Going off the list above, here's how I think the charges could be proved:

1. Ross had recently been made very aware of hot car deaths involving children, via reading about the Georgia safe kids in cars program and by doing independent research of how long it would take a living being to die in a hot car. He was well aware of the danger to a child resulting in such an event.
2. Despite such knowledge and awareness of what could happen, Ross he didn't take reasonable precautions to prevent from forgetting Cooper, such as putting belongings he needed to take, in the back seat, attaching a note to his dash, having his wife call or text him after arrival at work, etc.
- Or, despite such knowledge and awareness of what could happen, he was quite unconcerned about the possibility of Cooper dying in a hot car, so he forget his kid in the 30 seconds it took to turn left or right out of the Chik-fil-A parking lot, and in the 2 to 3 minute drive to work, and in the 30 seconds he sat in his car before exiting, leaving Cooper behind.
- Or, despite such knowledge and awareness of what could happen, he just didn't care about what happened to Cooper and was more concerned about his own affairs, such as working, sexting, going to movie, so he just left him there, possibly knowing he left him or leaving without knowing when all the facts - 30 seconds after leaving the parking lot of Chik-fil-A, he turned the wrong direction, 3 minutes in a small car with an awake Cooper, he doesn't realize he needs to drop him off, 30 seconds parked in the lot, he doesn't realize Cooper is there, despite the fact that the car seat is jammed up against the side of his face, practically - show that he should have known.
3. Cooper died because his dad, despite clearly knowing what could happen to Cooper in a hot car:
a) took no reasonable precautions to stop from forgetting him;
b) didn't care what happened to Cooper and was narcissistically immersed in his own affairs or needs and desires instead of doing what he needed to keep Cooper safe, so he forget him;
c) knew Cooper was in the car but cared more about his own needs than Cooper's life or safety;
d) reasonably should have known Cooper was in the car, and should not have forgotten him under the circumstances, because a halfway decent parent would not have forgotten under those same circumstances.
4. Cooper died horribly with great suffering as shown by the frantic injuries to his head and face and his open eyes and protruding tongue.

I think that practically, the jury would have to find much more than a pure accident that could happen to many people - you know, a lot on the mind, little sleep, uncharacteristically quiet/asleep child during the drive, constant phone calls or distractions during the drive, a difference in routine that day, etc.

But they don't have to go all the way to finding he intended to murder Cooper or even that he intended to cause him any harm.
 
  • #794
There was something else someone mentioned a while back.. I think it was with regard to Justin having to take a left or right turn seconds after driving out of the restaurant that would have him on his way to drop Cooper off. I think one of our lawyers mentioned it.. Could he really have forgotten about Cooper in those few seconds? I really doubt it.

From the Chick-fil-A parking lot to Cooper's day care. It was about 0.6 miles, and would take approximately 30-40 seconds.
 
  • #795
1. There was not a significant change in routine that morning - he took Cooper to daycare nearly every day, and they ate breakfast at Chik-Fil-A 2-3 times a month

2. Cooper is quite a lot older than many of the children accidentally forgotten; more verbal; and it's HIGHLY unlikely that he fell asleep in the two minutes between CFA and JRH's work.

3. JRH had watched a video on pets dying in hot cars merely days before leaving Cooper in a hot car

4. JRH said he practiced "Look Back" often, in order to make sure he didn't leave Cooper in the car

5. JRH said that leaving Cooper in a hot car was his biggest fear

6. JRH had made sure to take his new guitar inside work not long before leaving Cooper in the car, because he knew the intense heat would damage the guitar

7. JRH had also searched "how to survive in prison"

8. Cooper had outgrown his car seat. They had a new one, but it was in LH's car. JRH told Det Stoddard that he knew all the specifications on Cooper's car seat. Yet the straps were set at the lowest possible level (infant level) meaning that they would have been very tight against Cooper, ensuring he couldn't possibly get free from the car seat

9. His wife's first instinct was to assume Cooper had been left in the car as soon as she found out he wasn't at daycare

10. JRH didn't even call 911 himself after discovering Cooper in the car, and once police arrived he was uncooperative and belligerent with them

11. He was asking his brother about cashing in Cooper's life insurance policies (he had two, which is somewhat unusual but not unheard of) within a day or two of Cooper's death

12. When informed of the murder charge against him, he said to the Detective "but there was no malicious intent", meaning he had familiarized himself with the possible charges he might face

13. His wife asked "did you say too much?" when she was allowed to see him at the police station

14. He told one of the women he was talking to online that his conscience never bothered him about cheating on his wife and being deceptive

15. Per the search warrants, JRH told investigators he had researched "child deaths inside vehicles and what temperature it needs to be for that to occur" - and Cooper was left in the car on the hottest day so far that summer

So......those are just a few reasons off the top of my head as to what makes this case different than the ones in the WaPo article.

Great post outlining the prosecution's case. IMO the above points are exactly the ones the state will be driving home during trial.
 
  • #796
***SNIPPED for brevity ***

2. Cooper is quite a lot older than many of the children accidentally forgotten; more verbal; and it's HIGHLY unlikely that he fell asleep in the two minutes between CFA and JRH's work.

***SNIPPED for brevity ****

I would like to address #2. It's true Cooper is older than many of the children accidentally forgotten. He still falls into the 20% age category of "hot car deaths".


Eight seven percent (87%) of children who have died from vehicular heat stroke are age 3 and younger.


http://www.kidsandcars.org/userfiles/dangers/heat-stroke-fact-sheet.pdf

Are you saying that 22 yr. old children are rarely ever silent unless they are asleep? While I agree children this age are verbal, I don't agree they never have a moment of silence. I also don't agree that it's highly unlikely Cooper fell asleep that quickly. I recall shopping trips and my child falling asleep before I could get out of the parking lot. I remember being amazed at how quickly they could nod over and fall asleep.

I would like to address the other 14 entries in your post. However, there have been accusations of inaccuracies. There have also been accusations that comments have been taken out of context. I am waiting until the trial to determine exactly what is accurate and what is not. :loser:

I will say that I don't find Ross's research on "how to survive in prison" relevant to the case.
 
  • #797
I would like to address #2. It's true Cooper is older than many of the children accidentally forgotten. He still falls into the 20% age category of "hot car deaths".



Are you saying that 22 yr. old children are rarely ever silent unless they are asleep? While I agree children this age are verbal, I don't agree they never have a moment of silence. I also don't agree that it's highly unlikely Cooper fell asleep that quickly. I recall shopping trips and my child falling asleep before I could get out of the parking lot. I remember being amazed at how quickly they could nod over and fall asleep.

I would like to address the other 14 entries in your post. However, there have been accusations of inaccuracies. There have also been accusations that comments have been taken out of context. I am waiting until the trial to determine exactly what is accurate and what is not. :loser:

I will say that I don't find Ross's research on "how to survive in prison" relevant to the case.

Yep, that's what I'm saying. They chatter a lot, or make random sounds...I took my twin niece and nephew on a 3 hour round trip drive to the airport once when they were 2 and they never stopped making noise. Or fell asleep!

If it was after lunch I'd be more inclined to believe Cooper fell asleep.

It's *possible* that Cooper was completely silent the whole time. I'm just pointing out what I find different from the majority of hot car deaths where the parents leave them in the car accidentally. Because I definitely believe that kids can be left accidentally.

Just to clarify, the accusations of inaccuracies you're referring to are accusations against LE, not against me! The way your post reads it sounds like I'm the one being accused.
 
  • #798
I read in an article online that the wife filed for separation the *day* that the baby died. (I'm not sure what "separation" means in a legal context, I guess it's a first step toward divorce).

If true doesn't that seem quite unusual? Regardless of what she thought of the husband's actions wouldn't she have more pressing matters on her mind on the very day of her child's death?
 
  • #799
Yep, that's what I'm saying. They chatter a lot, or make random sounds...I took my twin niece and nephew on a 3 hour round trip drive to the airport once when they were 2 and they never stopped making noise. Or fell asleep!

If it was after lunch I'd be more inclined to believe Cooper fell asleep.

It's *possible* that Cooper was completely silent the whole time. I'm just pointing out what I find different from the majority of hot car deaths where the parents leave them in the car accidentally. Because I definitely believe that kids can be left accidentally.

Just to clarify, the accusations of inaccuracies you're referring to are accusations against LE, not against me! The way your post reads it sounds like I'm the one being accused.

Sorry, the BBM is what I meant.

Not every case is thoroughly investigated. Investigators don't make a big deal out of every move and everything the parents said. Computers and other electronic devices were not confiscated and gone through with a fine tooth comb. I suspect LE could find research topics they could relate to the death on many of the parent's computers. IMO
 
  • #800
I read in an article online that the wife filed for separation the *day* that the baby died. (I'm not sure what "separation" means in a legal context, I guess it's a first step toward divorce).

If true doesn't that seem quite unusual? Regardless of what she thought of the husband's actions wouldn't she have more pressing matters on her mind on the very day of her child's death?

That was info taken out of context...the divorce paperwork says they've been separated since that day, because that's when he was incarcerated. The article misconstrued that to say she'd filed for separation that day.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
39
Guests online
4,120
Total visitors
4,159

Forum statistics

Threads
632,104
Messages
18,622,019
Members
243,019
Latest member
22kimba22
Back
Top