The IDI Chickens have come home to roost

[vlpate]

Things get a little heated sometimes-some of us are very passionate, SD being even more so. But this forum is very well-mannered for the most part, and neither Roy of SD got into it on a level that would result in being banned. We are adults here- this is a brutal case. One has to have a thick skin sometimes and not let things get too personal.
SD is very well-read on this case- he's been working on it a long time (as have many others). He will be missed- he knows his stuff. I hope he cools down enough to return.
I have the utmost respect for Roy, too. Though we are on opposite sides of the fence, he too is well-read and I respect his opinion. Roy is always a gentleman.
No one here should ever let anyone else get under their skin enough to feel like they have to leave or be rebuked. That helps nothing.
I try to keep in mind that SOME of us are right. I really don't care if it is me or not, or if it is RDI or IDI. I just want to see the case solved, and many of is who feel the parents are to blame would be very happy to find out that was not the case. I HATE thinking the last face JB saw - her killer's- was someone she loved and who she thought loved her.

BTW, for a good overview of this case, scroll to the JonBenet Ramsey archives here:
http://www.acandyrose.com

Very well said Dee Dee.

 

[BBB167893]

Dave, I hope you have changed your mind.

That depends, vlpate.

If you mean, have I changed my mind about a sabbatical, yes I have. Yesterday was JB's 21st birthday. I felt like I was abandoning her, and there's been too much of that already.

But if you mean, have I changed my mind about WHY I decided to take a slight hiatus, no I have not. I still believe that I was doing more harm than good. I'm not the same poster I was when I first came here, and that's bad, imo.

I'm always tough, but I should not be rough.

 

[vlpate]

That depends, vlpate.

If you mean, have I changed my mind about a sabbatical, yes I have. Yesterday was JB's 21st birthday. I felt like I was abandoning her, and there's been too much of that already.

But if you mean, have I changed my mind about WHY I decided to take a slight hiatus, no I have not. I still believe that I was doing more harm than good. I'm not the same poster I was when I first came here, and that's bad, imo.

I'm always tough, but I should not be rough.

Well I don't know what happened, but I'm glad you are staying :great:

 

[CanManEh]

Okay don't laugh. What is IDI?

LoL ...Don't feel bad QueenD I was thinking someone miss spelled idiot's lol..

 

[BBB167893]

LoL ...Don't feel bad QueenD I was thinking someone miss spelled idiot's lol..

CanManEh, you REALLY shouldn't give me set-ups like that!

 

[BBB167893]

Well I don't know what happened, but I'm glad you are staying :great:

I imagine that some will not be glad!

I started this thread to make a point, but I was so angry that I sabotaged myself practically before I got started.

 

[BBB167893]

My post over at CS was much better! Finally, I said what I wanted to say!

 

[vlpate]

My post over at CS was much better! Finally, I said what I wanted to say!

did you get my message? I'm curious about the urine outside the wine cellar door...had never heard of it before.

 

[BBB167893]

did you get my message? I'm curious about the urine outside the wine cellar door...had never heard of it before.

It's not been established that there WAS any urine outside the wine cellar door, vlpate. Apparently, She-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named started that rumor, but there's not much substance to it.

 

[DeeDee249]

It's not been established that there WAS any urine outside the wine cellar door, vlpate. Apparently, She-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named started that rumor, but there's not much substance to it.

I had read that creatine was found on a carpeted area of the basement, in an area near the paint tote. That would have lent more weight to the theory that the garrote was made on her neck right there, and she died there lying on her stomach. Is this not the case, SD? I cannot believe LE didn't use a black light in the basement- they used one in her room. (on the other hand, yes- I can believe it).
We can presume she died on her stomach because it IS certain that her longjohns were urine-stained on the front (anterior). But as there were also traces of dried urine (creatinine) on her bed sheets, there is the possibility she died there. If that was the case, the bits of artificial green garland that were found in her hair could have been carried down the stairs to the basement, as there was artificial garland wrapped around the railing. But there were also artificial trees and decorations stored in the wineceller itself, as well as other areas of the basement. A crime photo of the wineceller door shows a Christmas decoration hung on the wall right next to the door, so there could have been bits if fake greens on the floor there, too.
This is what happens when a large crime scene (like a whole house) is released to the family too soon. They wanted to release it THAT NIGHT- after the body was taken to the morgue.
It was never actually established exactly where she actually DIED- her room, the basement, the wineceller, her bathroom, or somewhere else in the house. That is a crime in itself, IMO. It seemed like they never really tried, accepting that she died in the house as sufficient.
I'd say where she was strangled is where she died, because I believe it was the ligature which finally killed her, though she was already dying from the head blow.
It was too late for that YEARS ago- the house was released, sold (to a group of R friends and investors); then all carpeting was removed and all walls painted, forever eliminating the discovery of ANY overlooked forensic evidence.
There are so many missing pieces, it is no wonder the puzzle hasn't been solved.

 

[BBB167893]

I had read that creatine was found on a carpeted area of the basement, in an area near the paint tote. That would have lent more weight to the theory that the garrote was made on her neck right there, and she died there lying on her stomach. Is this not the case, SD?

Well, if true, it does strengthen the idea, yes.

 

[vlpate]

Well, if true, it does strengthen the idea, yes.

Traces of creatine are found in large amounts of urine. So, if true, there would have been a large amount of urine on the carpet detected as well.

Thank you Dave, that makes perfect sense - a lie told 1000 times is easier to believe than one fact.

 

[Steft50]

SD


As for circumstantial evidence, when a case is built on nothing else it probably shouldn't succeed.

Just a note here on the definition of circumstantial evidence vs direct evidence. Direct evidence is ONLY eye witnesses to the crime, video of the crime being committed or confession of the one who comitted the crime. EVERYTHING else is circumstantial including DNA and fingerprints.

 

[BBB167893]

Just a note here on the definition of circumstantial evidence vs direct evidence. Direct evidence is ONLY eye witnesses to the crime, video of the crime being committed or confession of the one who comitted the crime. EVERYTHING else is circumstantial including DNA and fingerprints.

Thanks, Steft50. My point in starting this thread was to show how confused people are as to what circumstantial evidence means.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

This is gonna be a bit off-topic, I apologize.

Hello, everyone, I'm an old regular, although I haven't been around in a while. I became interested in the Ramsey case the day after Christmas in 1996, when I first heard the name JonBenet, and the curious circumstances surrounding such a brutal crime...then later the pageant pictures hit the media, and I had to know more about what happened to her. Such a YOUNG girl, so blatantly sexualized.

Yes, I'm RDI. I wasn't at first. I allowed for the possibility of an intruder pedo, just based on the horrible way that poor little girl was displayed to the world via child beauty pageants - as racy as you can get with a six year old in 1996. I'm sad to say, I've seen people do more shocking things with younger girls today (padded bikini tops for 5 yr olds, for example), but back then...no. Unheard of. Today there's Dance Moms, and Toddlers and Tiaras on reality tv shows, but not in 1996. It was an eye-opener. I also allowed for the idea of someone targeting JR, as the RN said. But when I stopped and examined the facts, IMO, the IDI theory and SFF theory both fell flat.

IMO: The Ramseys changed their stories - why are there variations on the truth, if it's the truth? And not just one or two things, but a multitude. IMO, the Rs also know more than they admitted to, and they behaved as such. First off, I do not believe either JR nor PR took the RN seriously, because their actions indicate they didn't care at all if either Burke or JB were killed. I don't think they would have called so many people over or allowed Burke out of their sight for a second - with anyone - if they had believed that RN was real and an SFF held JBR, ready to kill her. I'm convinced PR wrote the RN. Not even Hunter's distortion of Patsy's score exonerated her. Second, that crime scene in the basement was staged. Why would an intruder need to stage anything? Only the parents would. IMO. And then there's the oversized bloomies...

I'm a PDI, to be specific. Patsy, the mother who dressed a child who had just turned 4 as "a sexy witch." Those are Patsy's words, too, not mine. JonBenet had just turned 4 only two months earlier. Sexy, indeed. Why would any mother use the word 'sexy' to describe the Halloween costume her 4 yr old would be wearing? Red flag right there.

That draws into JBR's incontinence. Poor child. IMO, her sliding on toileting skills was the direct result of all of the demands placed on her by her mother to win awards and trophies - she was being worked like an adult, and she was only six. IMO, the soiling issues were a manifestation of her not quite being ready to take on the role her mother wanted for her. Her brain was screaming, "Look! I'm still a BABY!" IMO. Not that big a deal? Read what Patsy had to say about the amount of soiling JB was doing in PMPT, page 94 - she states outright that JonBenet had "frequent infections that were hard to clear up" from JB "always being in wet underpants." WHAT? Infants in diapers 24/7 don't even have infections like that.

Something was WRONG in JonBenet's life to have had such a drastic toll on JonBenet's life and health, on her personal body. Those infections can be awful, and she suffered them frequently? Why? Why she always in wet undies? No child at age 6 should have to deal with something like that. Patsy should have taken her to a specialist, forget what the pediatrician in Boulder said. IMO, if Patsy had been the one dealing with "frequent infections that were hard to clear up from always being in wet underpants", she would have seen one. Why didn't JonBenet get to see one? There's something wrong there. Another red flag, despite Patsy's attempts to distance them for any of that...especially considering the oversized bloomies that the Rs had, that weren't in JonBenet's drawers, that the Rs turned in to the DA after the case moved from BPD to BDA's hands. Red flags all over that. Crucial timing, huh?


I had to take a break from the JBR case a few years ago. I had become disillusioned. It was time to step back and watch. I stayed busy following the Caylee Anthony case (Caylee is the one I name, not the black hole of evil that gave birth to her.) FCA is too kind a name for that one.

I thought of JonBenet on her 21st birthday. Always think of her on August 6th, and always on December 25th. Christmas isn't the same without wishing a photo of JonBenet a Merry Christmas anymore. I feel bad now that you mention not wanting to abandon her as so many others have, SD, because I never meant to abandon her when I opted sit quiet for a bit and let others crusade for her.

And it is a crusade, people. SuperDave may seem a bit over-enthused at times, but it's because he feels that strongly about the case (not meaning to put any words in your mouth, SD.) And feeling that strongly about the murder of a child (who died on Christmas Day, no less) is a GOOD thing.

We have to be the advocates for the children who have no voice but deserve justice, so they do not die in vain. We have to remember their names and see to it that society does not forget, either. We have to do our research and engage in the kind of debate you see here at WS, so that there is someone who cares. We have to be someone who knows that this child lived and died, and who do not want to see it keep happening to other children, no matter what side of the fence we sit on. WS is a very good place to discuss this case - I've been to others, like Topix, that are nowhere near as friendly or respectful, not to mention informative, as WS. It's a good place, and we are all good people, who care so very much about a child we've never met. IMO.

 

[KoldKase]

Yep. I thought Ashton put a clownsuit on him. But I guess not.

I completely agree with you, here, Roy. I immediately thought Spitz has gone way past his expiration date and needs to retire. He didn't even make sense. I was embarrassed for him...right up until I learned the jury was so ignorant as to not notice the man is nearly a zombie.

 

[KoldKase]

Well, if true, it does strengthen the idea, yes.

I can't swear to it in a court of law, as my memory isn't what it once was--as you well know, SD, me and Dr. Spitz :waitasec:--but I thought I finally saw Lou Smit state JB's urine was found outside the cellar room door during one interview or another much later in the case. (Sorry, can't remember where--on TV, in a print interview, or even one local Colorado media interview I saw Smit give which was posted online or I'd have missed it entirely. Iif I do, I'll let you know.)

If I'm not completely mis-remembering, then that's where jams got her info--as usual.

 

[DeeDee249]

I can't swear to it in a court of law, as my memory isn't what it once was--as you well know, SD, me and Dr. Spitz :waitasec:--but I thought I finally saw Lou Smit state JB's urine was found outside the cellar room door during one interview or another much later in the case. (Sorry, can't remember where--on TV, in a print interview, or even one local Colorado media interview I saw Smit give which was posted online or I'd have missed it entirely. Iif I do, I'll let you know.)

If I'm not completely mis-remembering, then that's where jams got her info--as usual.

I remember reading that too (that urine was found on a basement carpet in an area not far from the WC door. I have always believed that the garrote was tied on her neck in the basement, probably right near the paint tote (which was not far from the WC door). The head bash may have happened in another location in the house (her room, her bathroom) but I believe the strangulation happened in the basement, while she was unconscious or dying
but not yet dead. She was not moving- the lack of evidence of a struggle during the strangulation proves this to me. There was no trauma to her tongue, and there are NO scratch marks on her neck despite the lies told by IDI about it (those marks are are petechiae).
She was on her stomach as the evidence also tells us- the cord was tied at the back of her neck, there is a bruise on the posterior surface (back) of her right shoulder, which could have happened as someone was kneeling or pressing against her as the garrote was tightened. Her longjohns had urine stains on the anterior surface (front), which also indicates she was on her stomach when she died, and her bladder emptied (which always happens immediately at death).

 

[BBB167893]

This is gonna be a bit off-topic, I apologize.

Hello, everyone, I'm an old regular, although I haven't been around in a while. I became interested in the Ramsey case the day after Christmas in 1996, when I first heard the name JonBenet, and the curious circumstances surrounding such a brutal crime...then later the pageant pictures hit the media, and I had to know more about what happened to her. Such a YOUNG girl, so blatantly sexualized.

Yes, I'm RDI. I wasn't at first. I allowed for the possibility of an intruder pedo, just based on the horrible way that poor little girl was displayed to the world via child beauty pageants - as racy as you can get with a six year old in 1996. I'm sad to say, I've seen people do more shocking things with younger girls today (padded bikini tops for 5 yr olds, for example), but back then...no. Unheard of. Today there's Dance Moms, and Toddlers and Tiaras on reality tv shows, but not in 1996. It was an eye-opener. I also allowed for the idea of someone targeting JR, as the RN said. But when I stopped and examined the facts, IMO, the IDI theory and SFF theory both fell flat.

IMO: The Ramseys changed their stories - why are there variations on the truth, if it's the truth? And not just one or two things, but a multitude. IMO, the Rs also know more than they admitted to, and they behaved as such. First off, I do not believe either JR nor PR took the RN seriously, because their actions indicate they didn't care at all if either Burke or JB were killed. I don't think they would have called so many people over or allowed Burke out of their sight for a second - with anyone - if they had believed that RN was real and an SFF held JBR, ready to kill her. I'm convinced PR wrote the RN. Not even Hunter's distortion of Patsy's score exonerated her. Second, that crime scene in the basement was staged. Why would an intruder need to stage anything? Only the parents would. IMO. And then there's the oversized bloomies...

I'm a PDI, to be specific. Patsy, the mother who dressed a child who had just turned 4 as "a sexy witch." Those are Patsy's words, too, not mine. JonBenet had just turned 4 only two months earlier. Sexy, indeed. Why would any mother use the word 'sexy' to describe the Halloween costume her 4 yr old would be wearing? Red flag right there.

That draws into JBR's incontinence. Poor child. IMO, her sliding on toileting skills was the direct result of all of the demands placed on her by her mother to win awards and trophies - she was being worked like an adult, and she was only six. IMO, the soiling issues were a manifestation of her not quite being ready to take on the role her mother wanted for her. Her brain was screaming, "Look! I'm still a BABY!" IMO. Not that big a deal? Read what Patsy had to say about the amount of soiling JB was doing in PMPT, page 94 - she states outright that JonBenet had "frequent infections that were hard to clear up" from JB "always being in wet underpants." WHAT? Infants in diapers 24/7 don't even have infections like that.

Something was WRONG in JonBenet's life to have had such a drastic toll on JonBenet's life and health, on her personal body. Those infections can be awful, and she suffered them frequently? Why? Why she always in wet undies? No child at age 6 should have to deal with something like that. Patsy should have taken her to a specialist, forget what the pediatrician in Boulder said. IMO, if Patsy had been the one dealing with "frequent infections that were hard to clear up from always being in wet underpants", she would have seen one. Why didn't JonBenet get to see one? There's something wrong there. Another red flag, despite Patsy's attempts to distance them for any of that...especially considering the oversized bloomies that the Rs had, that weren't in JonBenet's drawers, that the Rs turned in to the DA after the case moved from BPD to BDA's hands. Red flags all over that. Crucial timing, huh?


I had to take a break from the JBR case a few years ago. I had become disillusioned. It was time to step back and watch. I stayed busy following the Caylee Anthony case (Caylee is the one I name, not the black hole of evil that gave birth to her.) FCA is too kind a name for that one.

I thought of JonBenet on her 21st birthday. Always think of her on August 6th, and always on December 25th. Christmas isn't the same without wishing a photo of JonBenet a Merry Christmas anymore. I feel bad now that you mention not wanting to abandon her as so many others have, SD, because I never meant to abandon her when I opted sit quiet for a bit and let others crusade for her.

And it is a crusade, people. SuperDave may seem a bit over-enthused at times, but it's because he feels that strongly about the case (not meaning to put any words in your mouth, SD.) And feeling that strongly about the murder of a child (who died on Christmas Day, no less) is a GOOD thing.

We have to be the advocates for the children who have no voice but deserve justice, so they do not die in vain. We have to remember their names and see to it that society does not forget, either. We have to do our research and engage in the kind of debate you see here at WS, so that there is someone who cares. We have to be someone who knows that this child lived and died, and who do not want to see it keep happening to other children, no matter what side of the fence we sit on. WS is a very good place to discuss this case - I've been to others, like Topix, that are nowhere near as friendly or respectful, not to mention informative, as WS. It's a good place, and we are all good people, who care so very much about a child we've never met. IMO.

I never implied that you had abandoned her, NP. I was referring to the people who worked the case (or DIDN'T work it, to be more accurate).

You use the word "crusade," and that's exactly the way I look at it.

When FCA got off, it was my worst fear come to life. For years, I had dreaded the effect on our justice system that this case would have. That's WHY I started this thread and the other one: to show the damage that pro-Ramsey arguments have done.

When Patsy died, I wondered if I had anything left to give. What happens to St. George when the dragon is dead? Five years later, I fear I know the answer: he BECOMES a dragon himself.

 

[Roy23]

I never implied that you had abandoned her, NP. I was referring to the people who worked the case (or DIDN'T work it, to be more accurate).

You use the word "crusade," and that's exactly the way I look at it.

When FCA got off, it was my worst fear come to life. For years, I had dreaded the effect on our justice system that this case would have. That's WHY I started this thread and the other one: to show the damage that pro-Ramsey arguments have done.

When Patsy died, I wondered if I had anything left to give. What happens to St. George when the dragon is dead? Five years later, I fear I know the answer: he BECOMES a dragon himself.

Technically Pro Ramsey arguments have affected nothing. The problem is anti-Ramsey arguments still don't hold enough water to make a case. CA case didn't have that problem. Even your investigators admit not enough to make a case.