The Manhole Theory

  • #41
Thanks KyleB and Cappuccino - obviously a senior moment there! A very serious one!

My apologies if I confused anyone, reading here, with my confusion! Luckily it was a quick catch and good save.

@ UdbCrzy2. Many are of the opinion that it was animal predation which was the cause of the de-gloving of the penis. No evidence of any stab wounds was presented despite the farce of the knife and the grapefruit in closing! Furthermore, the knife 'alleged' to have been the instrument used had likely been thrown in the 'lake' at Lakeshore Trailer Park before the murders took place!

As I recall, I don't think all the defense experts agreed on the wounds.

As far as the knife goes, I do believe that's how the wounds got there and I also believe that Baldwin's mother tried to cover it up. I believe we have a thread on that.

I respect your opinion and if you want to believe that 120lb turtles were there or that wolves caused the blunt force trauma and drowned those little boys that's your choice, it is not mine.

I also remember a time when the defense said that the wounds were bite marks from a human when they were trying to create a reasonable doubt toward Mark Byers.
 
  • #42
There's a really good doco series on forensics on Youtube called 'Autopsy', with lots of good forensic info if you can get past the horrific graphics..

Anyways - right at the beginning of 'Autopsy 2' there's an ME (iirc) talking about turtles in the Mississippi (which is near the crime scene, so probably these are the same species..) and how they can strip an entire body down to nothing quite quickly, which is part of the reason that river is a favoured dumping site for killers. He's rather emphatic in stating how much these turtles like to eat cadavers..

So in an environment where lots of these turtles live, and are well known by locals to have a habitat there, I would actually -expect- some predation. I actually passingly wonder if that wasn't the point of putting them in the water..
 
  • #43
There's a really good doco series on forensics on Youtube called 'Autopsy', with lots of good forensic info if you can get past the horrific graphics..

Anyways - right at the beginning of 'Autopsy 2' there's an ME (iirc) talking about turtles in the Mississippi (which is near the crime scene, so probably these are the same species..) and how they can strip an entire body down to nothing quite quickly, which is part of the reason that river is a favoured dumping site for killers. He's rather emphatic in stating how much these turtles like to eat cadavers..

So in an environment where lots of of these turtles live, and are well known by locals to have a habitat there, I would actually -expect- some predation. I actually passingly wonder if that wasn't the point of putting them in the water..

I've often seen posters laugh off the turtle predation theory and refer to it as utter nonsense. I believe that it is quite possible that turtles caused some of the injuries post mortem. Could people who think it impossible explain why they feel that way? I can only recall those posters calling it absurd(or whatever terms various people used) but I don't remember anyone saying why. I'm half asleep, so maybe I'm forgetting something. Apologies if I missed anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #44
I believe that it is quite possible that turtles caused some of the injuries post mortem.
Me too, particularly because I haven't seen anywhere close to all of the injuries, and can't rightly draw definitive conclusions regarding evidence I haven't seen. And West of Memphis does include one autopsy photo which looks reasonably consistent with a turtle bite, but it seems unlikely that experts from both sides who have seen far more of the autopsy photos could've overlooked any notable animal predication for over a decade before these vague and unevidenced claims of postmortem animal predation started manifesting, regarding the genital mutilation and otherwise.

I can only recall those posters calling it absurd(or whatever terms various people used) but I don't remember anyone saying why.
It's the making of claims without providing evidence to substantiate them which is absurd, both those from experts hired by the defense and otherwise.
 
  • #45
IIRC, the certified forensic pathologists that testified at the Rule 37 hearings (Spitz, Baden and others), although disagreeing about precisely what animals predated on the bodies, all agreed on two things - some sort of animal predation was involved and no knife, including the infamous Lake knife of grapefruit fame, was involved in the murders. IOW, none of the serious wounds on the bodies were caused by the Lake knife or any knife, despite the prosecution's lame attempt (and grapefruit abuse) to prove otherwise.

Spitz

Looking at photo 48 E, I see remains that show mutilation of the gential area. The scrotal sac has been torn off. It is not cut off. Looking at photo 48 F, I see areas where the skin has been rubbed off. 48 G shows the same phenomenon, and you can see where there is a tearing off of the scrotum. You see three marks on the posterior, parallel marks. You can see where the skin is discolored, and drying. Had a lawyer come to me with these photos in the 1990s, I would have asked for distant and close up shots, and then I would have looked at the close ups, like 48 G, and I would have said that this is post mortem animal mutilation. If you look at the missing area of the scrotum, and of the gouge marks, and areas where the upper surface of the skin is missing, and looking at the linear scrapes and other marks on the extremities, large animals, dogs for example, do this kind of thing. The scrotum is loose. I can show you a picture like this from a publication. The scratches that you see are left by an animal like a dog. The scratches all go in the same direction.

More Spitz

Looking at the body of Michael Moore (Exhibit 48Q) I see a pattern on the right shoulder. The pattern is shown in other photographs including 48I. The pattern is all part of one event. It is inconsistent with a tool like a serrated knife. This seems to look like the paw of a large animal. There arealso scratches that look to me like animal mutilation. Photograph 48I also shows the left upper eyelid, the left nostril, and the ridge of the nose, all of which show injuries reminiscent of animal predation. They are not consistent with beatings with fists or sticks. The subject of animal predation was covered in the 1993 and 2006 editions of my book. What you have here is characteristic of animal predation.

Baden

In some of the photographs, you can see areas where the skin has been rubbed away from the left side, plus penetrating wounds that are very shallow that are consistent with animal activity, not wounds caused by a knife. Steve Branch had wounds to his face that showed small punctures and abrasions. A number of the wounds show no bleeding into the tissues which would be post-mortem predation or necrophagia. I have seen injuries like this in my own practice. I cannot be specific about what animal might have caused the injury, but my view is that the injuries I saw were consistent with animal activity. I did review the affidavits of Shawn Ryan Clark and Heather Hollis, who explained that they had been swimming in the ditch and had seen alligator snapping turtles in it. I would not purport to identify specific animals that might have inflicted the injuries. I would defer to forensic veterinarians. They could have been turtle injuries, there were scrape marks that might look like turtle claw marks, and there might have been dogs or other animals. Some of the injuries on the bodies are triangular and consistent with my experience with the sorts of triangular injuries caused by snapping turtles. In my view, the knife that was depicted as the murder weapon, which is shown in Exhibit 48N did not inflict any of the injuries that I observed. Also, the use of a grapefruit in closing argument to mimic the skin of a body was “awful”. The most common way to mimic human skin in a replication is the use of pig skin.

Souviron

There are a number of injuries that can be made by animals, and I have brought a number of exemplars along. This included exemplars of dog; shark; dog activity that looks like something else; knife wounds that are erroneously identified because the actual mechanism of injury was a dog.
I brought along an exemplar from my collection which I believe resembles the injuries to Chris Byers–you can see these pattern injuries from the paw marks. . . . I have looked at the record of this case, and have reviewed the testimony of officers at the scene in this case who described their walking through the water. Based on my review of the testimony, and of the map of the area, I would not have expected to see actual wildlife in the ditch where the bodies were found after Detective Ridge had walked in the ditch. The area seems to be to be where you might expect to find some degree of wild life there. I don’t know where the bodies were when they were set on by animals. In my opinion, there was a combination of animals involved. I would say turtles would have been likely, as would have a coon or a dog. Looking at the injury to the right shoulder of this young man, in autopsy 329, you see parallel lines consistent with claw marks. There was a question about whether this was done by the Rambo knife. I prepared an acetate tracing of the knife using a one to one measurement, and did the same with respect to the injury. When you place the acetate of the knife over the injury, you can see that it doesn’t fit. This is a common technique that we use in odontology to compare a known to an unknown. This is Exhibit 62. In answer to the Judge’s question, it may be possible that one of the cuts on the body in the area of the scrapes I was talking about could have been made by a knife, but the scratch marks were not, because you can’t get them to match up with the knife. I can’t tell you what kind of an animal exactly. I have read a book on the Amphibians and Reptiles of Arkansas. I also consulted a book called Arkansas Mammals. There are a lot of possible candidates for inflicting these injuries. My first choice would be a turtle or maybe a turtle and a crayfish. There are a number of animals in the books I reviewed that eat dead animals, and that might have been involved. I am aware of two affidavits covering the presence of wild dogs in the area. Looking again at photos of Mr. Moore, autopsy number 329, I am of the opinion that those are animals. I see some blunt force trauma, but other areas of animal activity. Mr. Branch had injuries to his face that look like dogs licked the area. I have seen injuries like that. I also see some injuries that were triangular, like they were made by a turtle. This is post-mortem mutilation. There is no way that a knife could have caused those injuries. You are showing me what was identified as a human bite mark by Dr. David, and I agree with other doctors who have testified that this is not a humanmbite mark. But I don’t understand Dr. Perretti’s identification of indications of bite marks on the cheek, and his lack of consideration of these as animal bite marks. The areas of what Dr. Perretti describes as gouge marks are animal activity. You can see irregular borders of the wounds. There are little half mooned shapes. These are classic bite marks. The wounds to the genital area are also post mortem animal bite marks. The de-gloving of the penis is characteristic of an animal bite mark. That would have been recognized in 1993. Today, you would have swabbed the area for DNA, and human saliva. The other thing to consider if you assume that these are knife wounds is that there would likely have been some injury to the bones. I don’t think that they looked at the bones. I used an acetate of the knife on these marks near the genital injury, and they could not have been made by this knife. I strongly disagree with Dr. Perretti’s testimony in the Misskelley case that ‘a knife’ or in Baldwin/Echols ‘a particular knife’ caused the injuries I am reviewing. I think that someone with the kind of training I have would have testified in 1993/4 as I am testifying now.


Ophoven

With respect to the injuries to Christopher Byers and photographs shown at trial that were described as a close-up of where the penis and scrotal sac and testes should be, in my opinion the response that agreed that this was an area of mutilation was wrong. This is not a close scientific question. This injury did not result from the use of a sharp tool. If you look at the area depicted, you can see that the tissue has been torn. It has not been removed through the use of a sharp object. You can also see little puncture wounds where there is no blood. You can see a number of punctate wounds. Looking at other exhibits that show the close-up of the area as it was shown during the course of the trial, the way the testimony at trial came out the area is described as showing indications of organs that have been carved out, and have cutting and gouging wounds. If you look, you see scalloped edges. This has been torn off. This is pretty basic pathology. You can see that there has been some pulling away of the tissue. It has been torn out. There is no blood in the tissue area and you can see that this is clearly post-mortem. The testimony at trial that there was no evidence of animal activity or insect bites is wrong. This is evidence of animal activity.

Dr. Ophoven, who is a pediatric forensic pathologist, also discussed (in great detail) the evidence (or really the lack of evidence) of anal penetration, for those who are interested.

Also, Paid, the author of the Manhole Theory, is constantly revising his findings in light of any new information that comes to light. His latest revision is found here. If you cannot access that site, I apologize or if the link was previously provide, I apologize for the duplication.
 
  • #46
More Spitz

Looking at the body of Michael Moore (Exhibit 48Q) I see a pattern on the right shoulder. The pattern is shown in other photographs including 48I. The pattern is all part of one event. It is inconsistent with a tool like a serrated knife. This seems to look like the paw of a large animal.
Do you believe Spitz is correct in attributing those wounds to an animal paw?
 
  • #47
Do you believe Spitz is correct in attributing those wounds to an animal paw?
I think that it is certainly possible that he is not right on this particular wound pattern. I agree with him that it is not consistent with a knife wound as the state tried to establish. In my opinion it is closer to a type of road rash cluster of scratches and more likely and plausibly the consequences of being dragged over roughened concrete.

I cannot get my head around the idea of the perp/perps having a knife and there not being any stab like wounds.

The only 'path' through this mass of partial evidence is a 'line of best fit' that makes the most possible logical sense for each individual considering it all.

Without all the possible dots available it is inevitable that final opinions will vary. Hopefully a time will come when there will be a concensus achieved.
 
  • #48
Doesn't the 'Manhole Theory' conflict with the Defense's profiler John Douglas? He does not think that where the bodies were found was a 'dump site', but he thinks it was actually the crime scene. Blood was detected there also from the luminol photos there was quite a bit of it considering that those photos were taken several days later and it had also rained.

It is in my opinion the victims came into the woods of Robin Hood Hills by the most common method and that was by crossing the wood and pipe make-shift bridge. It is inconceivable that they carried their bikes across this very narrow width bridge. Nor is there any evidence they entered Robin Hood Hills at another location or were killed somewhere else and disposed of in Robin Hood Hills.

http://media.commercialappeal.com/media/static/Offender_profile.pdf
 
  • #49
If a body is found in a house then the odds are that they were killed there, even if it was in another room!

The horizontal pipe is not too far from where the bodies were found nor is the other manhole. I do not believe that they were killed any great distance from where they were found and tend to doubt the possibility that the bodies were brought to the ditch in a vehicle.
 
  • #50
I think that it is certainly possible that he is not right on this particular wound pattern.
Are there any particular wound pattens for which autopsy photos are publicly available that you don't doubt the claims of animal predation regarding?
 
  • #51
If a body is found in a house then the odds are that they were killed there, even if it was in another room!

The horizontal pipe is not too far from where the bodies were found nor is the other manhole. I do not believe that they were killed any great distance from where they were found and tend to doubt the possibility that the bodies were brought to the ditch in a vehicle.

Exactly! IMO, when Douglas said that they were killed in the Robinhood Woods, he was right. I just don't think they were killed at the discovery site, but very close to it. I think Douglas was incorrect in stating otherwise, although I don't see his statement as inconsistent with a murder site very near the discovery site. The contamination of everything by the ineptness of the wmpd certainly make the whole matter murky, to say the least!
 
  • #52
The manhole theory rears it's head again. This is one theory I could never get behind... at least not when it involves TH. My problem comes from my opinion that TH just could not have drug 3 boys out of a man hole and then took them another few hundred feet to drop them off. I don't remember how much each boy weighed (as I walked away from the case for quite awhile), but a typical 8 year old weighs around 55 to 60 lbs. So we'll say 58... 58 lbs of dead weight is a lot more weight that most people imagine. Not to mention that this is not evenly distributed because of the awkward form of a person. I'm sorry it's not really feasible (possible yes, but IMO very unlikely). TH is a very slight man, I'm a big guy (former military and die hard weightlifter) around 225 lbs and sorry it would have been difficult for me to do this, once ok but by the time I get the second boy out I would be exhausted. Plus I think the boys would have been a lot more banged up, as would TH. He was wearing a short sleeve shirt the next day and didn't look to have a mark on his arms, hands, neck or head. Don't get me wrong I think TH is the best suspect, but I just don't buy the man hole theory for a second.
 
  • #53
Just a point of interest.. JKM quite emphatically suggested to police that the boys were killed "200 feet" from the discovery site and were moved into the water later.

He also suggested Terry Hobbs as prime suspect, in that interview just two weeks after the murders.

He also said the ligatures were found at the scene, not brought there (ie, shoelaces).

Lots of interesting stuff... but the "200 feet" thing really caught my eye as a possible link to the manhole theory.

JKM was a suspect and given a polygraph. He's a sex offender and was charged with raping his step-children.

He was giving a hypothetical when he referred to Hobbs. He claims that he picks Hobbs because he's not the biological father. He must not know that Byers adopted Chris. Also, if you are considering the JKM statement he talks about the boys being raped and from your posts you don't think that unless you've changed your mind which is allowed.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmartinstatement.html
 
  • #54
Actually, some of what JKM talks about in quite some detail is that many molesters prefer -not- to anally rape thier victims, as this leaves too much evidence of a crime. He describes other means by which these men sexually assault their victims.

Now, this interests me (and sorry for going a little OT) because at the time JKM said this, I am pretty sure it was believed the boys had been anally raped.

Which they weren't. So no, I have not changed my mind.

There's a lot of red flaggy stuff in those comments he made. He's still up the top of my suspect list, for that and several other reasons.

I find the Manhole Theory very interesting. But in my mind, it is not welded to suspicions regarding Terry Hobbs.
 
  • #55
Actually, some of what JKM talks about in quite some detail is that many molesters prefer -not- to anally rape thier victims, as this leaves too much evidence of a crime. He describes other means by which these men sexually assault their victims.

Now, this interests me (and sorry for going a little OT) because at the time JKM said this, I am pretty sure it was believed the boys had been anally raped.

Which they weren't. So no, I have not changed my mind.

There's a lot of red flaggy stuff in those comments he made. He's still up the top of my suspect list, for that and several other reasons.

I find the Manhole Theory very interesting. But in my mind, it is not welded to suspicions regarding Terry Hobbs.

He talked about raping without penetrating (between their legs). He also talked about raping orally. To me that's the same = rape either way.

It seems like they questioned him the same way they did Echols and Misskelley, but the latter gave more details to the facts in the case.

They had plenty of suspects, if you look at Callahans you can see that.
 
  • #56
He talked about raping without penetrating (between their legs). He also talked about raping orally. To me that's the same = rape either way.


If you actually read my posts regarding rape, I am not saying the boys were not molested, they well could have been.

I am saying they were not ---anally raped---.

And yes, plenty of suspects, I am well aware of that. It's just a vast pity some were not investigated as closely as they ought to have been.
 
  • #57
If you actually read my posts regarding rape, I am not saying the boys were not molested, they well could have been.

I am saying they were not ---anally raped---.

And yes, plenty of suspects, I am well aware of that. It's just a vast pity some were not investigated as closely as they ought to have been.

Misskelley described a variety of ways they were raped.

I also realize that no DNA was found that was useful.

Even today it would have been difficult to retrieve DNA from a rape kit on victims who were submerged in water for an extended period of time.

This is where your post began about it.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228369"]Q: Were the victims raped, as JM described? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
  • #58
I don't know what you're saying, now.

The boys weren't anally raped.

A pedophile suspect described ways pedos can rape without doing that. He also proposed that the boys were killed "200 feet" from where they were found, which actually seems to fit parts of the evidence.

The end?
 
  • #59
The manhole theory rears it's head again. This is one theory I could never get behind... at least not when it involves TH. My problem comes from my opinion that TH just could not have drug 3 boys out of a man hole and then took them another few hundred feet to drop them off. I don't remember how much each boy weighed (as I walked away from the case for quite awhile), but a typical 8 year old weighs around 55 to 60 lbs. So we'll say 58... 58 lbs of dead weight is a lot more weight that most people imagine. Not to mention that this is not evenly distributed because of the awkward form of a person. I'm sorry it's not really feasible (possible yes, but IMO very unlikely). TH is a very slight man, I'm a big guy (former military and die hard weightlifter) around 225 lbs and sorry it would have been difficult for me to do this, once ok but by the time I get the second boy out I would be exhausted. Plus I think the boys would have been a lot more banged up, as would TH. He was wearing a short sleeve shirt the next day and didn't look to have a mark on his arms, hands, neck or head. Don't get me wrong I think TH is the best suspect, but I just don't buy the man hole theory for a second.

I think part of that theory is how the boys were bound with the shoe strings. It would have made them easier to carry (apparently).

I still don't know if I buy it either. It's definitely possible. People do strange stuff when they commit murders. I just think that if they were murdered in a manhole, the killer would just leave them there. Chances are they wouldn't have been found for a long time.

But also, some of the wounds look like they could match a rebar pattern..that's interesting in itself.
 
  • #60
It seems to me that if two people were to transport the three boys that they could use a post or bar and loop the shoelaces over the bar. It would make an efficient way to transport all 3 at once.
 

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