UK The Mystery of 'Bible John,' Scotland's Zodiac Killer

[Brubeck]

The Mystery of 'Bible John,' Scotland's Zodiac Killer

Fifty years ago, three married women turned up dead after a night at Glasgow's Barrowlands Ballroom. The killer has never been found.

We now know what the detectives then couldn't: Patricia Docker was the first victim of the serial killer later known as Bible John. Three young women were plucked from the Barrowland Ballroom between the night of the 22nd of February, 1968 and the 31st of October, 1969. Pat Docker, Jemima McDonald and Helen Puttock. Each was married, each had been at the dancing, each had been spending the night away from their regular partner, each had been menstruating, each was strangled and sexually assaulted. The brutal shared idiosyncrasies of the crimes led police to quickly acknowledge the existence of a serial killer on the streets of Glasgow, at first in private, then publicly under the twin pressures of the press and public fear.

Patricia's body was found 50 years ago. Bible John has never been caught.

 

[cherrymeg]

How would he have known that each woman was on their period? I googled "history of menstrual products" trying to figure out if there was something visible that would suggest a woman was menstruating. He could have hit on many women looking for someone on their period and married.

 

[KariKae]

I wonder if being on their period is what pushed the killer into a murderous rage. Like the woman said, "No, I am on my period."

 

[scarlettbones]

Interesting read, I hadn't heard of this one before. I think it's a reach to say he's a Scottish zodiac killer, there are no similarities other than being killers. He didn't taunt the police with letters and several women met/talked with him and helped create a sketch of him.

Apparently everyone at these meetups were married, it was for discreet hookups. The talk seemed to be on the intimate level so it might not take too long to figure out if a women was on her period or not. Or maybe he was spying on them in the restroom. (I think the former though).

 

[Brubeck]

Interesting read, I hadn't heard of this one before. I think it's a reach to say he's a Scottish zodiac killer, there are no similarities other than being killers. He didn't taunt the police with letters and several women met/talked with him and helped create a sketch of him.

I agree the headline does take liberties.

Instead, the intervening years have spawned a legend that has never quite lost its grip on the popular imagination of Glasgow, or Scotland as a whole. The killings provoked the country's largest ever manhunt, and countless words, suspects, books, documentaries, earnest speculation, pub theorising and bouts of urban myth-making. A British Zodiac killer and real-life whodunnit with no neat narrative conclusion, then or now.

 

[Betty P]

The Mystery of 'Bible John,' Scotland's Zodiac Killer

Fifty years ago, three married women turned up dead after a night at Glasgow's Barrowlands Ballroom. The killer has never been found.

We now know what the detectives then couldn't: Patricia Docker was the first victim of the serial killer later known as Bible John. Three young women were plucked from the Barrowland Ballroom between the night of the 22nd of February, 1968 and the 31st of October, 1969. Pat Docker, Jemima McDonald and Helen Puttock. Each was married, each had been at the dancing, each had been spending the night away from their regular partner, each had been menstruating, each was strangled and sexually assaulted. The brutal shared idiosyncrasies of the crimes led police to quickly acknowledge the existence of a serial killer on the streets of Glasgow, at first in private, then publicly under the twin pressures of the press and public fear.

Patricia's body was found 50 years ago. Bible John has never been caught.

I read a book about this SK about 10 yrs ago. Interesting that police have since decided Bible John may have been SK Peter Tobin, who lived in the area at the time and met his own wife there in 1969. So odd that these serial killers can kill many women, yet still get married and have families. Tobin was a monster, still killing young women and teens when he was in his 60's.

From the Wikipedia entry for Bible John

Professor David Wilson actively investigated Tobin's case for three years and strongly believes the available evidence supports his theory that Peter Tobin is Bible John.[92] He has stated that the moment he believed Tobin was Bible John occurred during Tobin's trial for the 1991 murder of 18-year-old Dinah McNicol, one of the women whose body had been unearthed from his Margate garden. The circumstantial evidence which Wilson uses to support this theory includes his striking similarities between trial testimony from an acquaintance of Dinah's who had been in her company on the evening of her abduction and the conversation with Bible John that Jean Langford claimed to have had on the evening of her sister's murder; among the important points of overlap are both men mentioning they did not drink at Hogmanay and had a cousin who had once scored a hole-in-one in a golf match.[92] This information—alongside other circumstantial evidence—has lead Professor Wilson to state: "I didn't set out to prove Tobin was Bible John, but I would stake my professional reputation on it."[92

What do you think? Could it have been Tobin?

 

[KariKae]

I think the article makes a strong case that it was Tobin

 

[gregjrichards]

I went to a music gig at the Barrowlands late last year and I thought about Bible John when I was there. It was creepy knowing he had been there. It is a really grim venue and it is not a nice place to visit and I would not go back.

I don’t think this mystery will ever be solved conclusively.

 

[cherrymeg]

Interesting read, I hadn't heard of this one before. I think it's a reach to say he's a Scottish zodiac killer, there are no similarities other than being killers. He didn't taunt the police with letters and several women met/talked with him and helped create a sketch of him.

Apparently everyone at these meetups were married, it was for discreet hookups. The talk seemed to be on the intimate level so it might not take too long to figure out if a women was on her period or not. Or maybe he was spying on them in the restroom. (I think the former though).

I wonder what the bathroom was like and if it could have had a peephole. I would think having your period would be a weird time to hook-up with a stranger. Unhooking a sanitary belt or pulling a tampon out seems like it could kill the mood. Unless that's what you're into.

 

[scarlettbones]

I read a book about this SK about 10 yrs ago. Interesting that police have since decided Bible John may have been SK Peter Tobin, who lived in the area at the time and met his own wife there in 1969. So odd that these serial killers can kill many women, yet still get married and have families. Tobin was a monster, still killing young women and teens when he was in his 60's.

From the Wikipedia entry for Bible John



What do you think? Could it have been Tobin?

Wow! What book is it??

 

[MelmothTheLost]

How would he have known that each woman was on their period? I googled "history of menstrual products" trying to figure out if there was something visible that would suggest a woman was menstruating. He could have hit on many women looking for someone on their period and married.

Some men can detect the smell of menstrual blood. This was a time when sanitary towels were much thicker and bulkier than they are today, and tampons were much less common.

 

[cherrymeg]

Some men can detect the smell of menstrual blood. This was a time when sanitary towels were much thicker and bulkier than they are today, and tampons were much less common.

I had an ex that swore he could smell when a woman was on her period not just me but women walking past him.

 

[scarlettbones]

 

[gregjrichards]

I wonder what the bathroom was like and if it could have had a peephole. I would think having your period would be a weird time to hook-up with a stranger. Unhooking a sanitary belt or pulling a tampon out seems like it could kill the mood. Unless that's what you're into.

The male toilets are basic, dark and horrifically filthy they needed a good clean and would make lavatories in a third world country look like luxury and I’m not joking. I don’t know what the ladies ones were like but I’m thinking not much different. It must be the worst music venue in Glasgow if not Scotland. The place needs renovation or knocked down which would be better.

 

[ColyH]

I have heard Peter Tobin was Bible John but I am not sure. Here is a sketch of Bible John on the left and a photo of Peter Tobin on the right. I see a similarities but I wouldn't say their an exact match.

 

[joejs89]

The only witness left who could identify Bible John (shared a cab with him and the murder victim) has since died. Sadly this one is for the history books unless Tobin was to confess. Judging from Tobins comments on YouTube he wont be confessing. He isn't popular in the prison. I think it was recently another prisoner slashed his face.

 

[madfrank]

Tobin looks nothing like the semblance above.

 

[cledco]

I understand the offender's original DNA samples are by now too deteriorated to work with, but I recall reading that a sample recovered from the scene of an unrelated crime decades later was an 80% match. Is there any compelling reason (perhaps differences between American and English law) that a genetic genealogy could not be developed from THAT sample? While identifying its source might not yield the perpetrator directly I imagine it would narrow the field of potential suspects considerably, and at least confirm or rule out Peter Tobin.

 

[Laughing]

Can you link to the case(s) you've mentioned here? Date, location, victim?

Thanks!

 

[cledco]

Bible John is the name given a serial killer who took three presumptive victims in Glasgow in the late 1960s. Despite testimony by a number of reliable witnesses, detailed descriptions of his appearance, an exhaustive investigation and DNA evidence he has never been identified.

Remains of a relative of one contemporary suspect were exhumed for testing in the 1990s.

DNA tests clear Bible John suspect

A partial DNA match was found in the early 2000s which sparked renewed efforts but I have been unable to locate any detailed information as to what exactly has come of it, including in the one thorough book published on the case in the last ten years.

BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | Men give DNA in Bible John case

Peter Tobin, a Scottish serial killer convicted of murders he commited between 1991 and 2006, has been suggested as a suspect. He lived in Glasgow at the time and certain elements of his history, disposition, and appearance match the profile, but others decidedly do not and he may have an alibi for the second of the three murders. Tobin's recalcitrance, advanced age, poor health, and unpopularity in prison mean it is unlikely a confession will be forthcoming. The last living witness, recently deceased, was apparently emphatic that Tobin was not the suspect.

Who did Peter Tobin kill and was he Bible John? Former lead detective David Swindle on why the serial killer case is not cold yet

As mentioned, the killer's DNA samples have become too deteriorated for reliable comparison. However, would not the close match found recently be theoretically useful for constructing a genealogy, phenotype snapshot to compliment sketches, or at least comparison to Tobin? Has it also become unsuitable for testing? Are there local laws which prohibit its use for this purpose? Maybe some of our UK membership might be able to shed some light on the matter.