The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[Whaleshark]

Right, she tried to downplay it.

Here they are on the 3-d model that Jayelles made....with the size 12s over the size 6s on the model....the crotch hangs several inches. With her bedwetting they would not have secured any liquid or anything else, and would not be comfortable or smart for her to wear to bed, much less walking around at a party, pants or no pants....and I presume if Patsy really removed her pants when putting her to bed, and she really had that size on, the undies would have come off her with the pants, with the size 12s being so loose and all...

 

[Whaleshark]

Another 2 angles just for reality sake:

 

[Chrishope]

interesting/similar viewpoint from Koldkase posted from here:

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TQGTT35B28Q2IU1M7/p11

Koldkase is writing back in response to the person below's question:

"BrotherMoon wrote: "Why don't YOU explain how the oversized panties are supposed to be "staging"?"

Koldkase response:
"If CSIEngland will forgive me, I'll jump in and be happy to clear this up for the confused.

Children don't put underwear on themselves which fall to their ankles and then wear them to a party. Unless JonBenet got that headblow before she put them on, she would not have done that. Any parent knows this is true.

I'm sure plenty of parents have the opposite experience.

But if you need something more to consider this, look at Jayelles' experiment, with the same brand and a "dummy" she made from a same-sized child.(I'm sure you've seen it, Brother.) Yes, it's just an amateur experiment, but it simply illustrates the problem with Patsy's changing stories about that very Bloomie underwear, when questioned by LE in Atlanta in 2000.

Patsy changed her story. Right there, as she was being questioned, as Wood was fending off the questions as vehemently as he could, trying to cue Patsy because Patsy's story wasn't holding up to the facts, Patsy told one story, then changed it, then changed it again. Patsy was lying about JonBenet putting those on herself.

[/quote

From the transcript below, I don't see where the story changed. I also don't see where Wood "cues" PR. He stops her from answering questions that have been asked before, or if he doesn't like the way the question is phrased - that's his job.

Patsy also lied about the size JonBenet actually wore, trying to fudge that size to 8-10. But the fact is the sizes found in the drawer by LE were only 4-6, not ONE pair sized 8-10. PATSY LIED AGAIN.

She does claim that JB might wear an 8 to 10. So possibly she's fudging here.

Then we find out years later that in fact, the Ramseys claimed to have actually located the entire missing package of those size 12-14 Bloomies some time BEFORE that 2000 LE interview in Atlanta, maybe as far back as 1998, but withheld that evidence until 2002! Pasty admitted in the 2000 interview she knew about the significance of the Bloomies found on JonBenet before that interview. She also was told CLEARLY why this was important EVIDENCE. Yet she said NOTHING to LE about that package the Ramseys had in their possession! The entire PREMISE of that Atlanta interview process was so Team Ramsey and LE could share info TO HELP FIND THE KILLER. But Patsy deliberately kept silent about about the fact that Team Ramsey had the remainder of the package! Why would she do that?

Yes, I'd like to know that as well. But it doesn't prove she was lying about the panties.

Yes, the Bloomies are important on many levels, and these are just additional proof that the Ramsey have lied to LE, have lied to the public, and have never intended to ever help LE solve this case.

This is being assumed, but not proven.

But there is more. If the Bloomies were too large for the child to wear, then she didn't wear them when she was a walking, talking child. ...

We don't know she didn't wear them when she was alive.

... So why would someone put that overly large underwear on JonBenet when she was no longer standing or moving on her own? That's an important question.

That's what we've been discussing, and I don't think we've reached any consensus.

And where was the package of Bloomies that night? And who thought to take them out and put them on JonBenet, rather than just grab a pair of hers which were the right size? Was it the day of the week that mattered? Was it that they were nearby and handy in a hurry? Was it because they weren't stained (and believe it or not, that's important to most women when they're going to be examined by medical personnel)?. Did the ones she was actually wearing before someone put the too large Bloomies on her, which fit her, have blood in them, or urine, and that was significant in the chain of events? Have those ever even been found?

All good questions. I wish we had definitive answers.

Yes, the Bloomies are important for many reasons. They're part of the evidence and tell a part of the story. A big part."
-end of quote from Koldkase

I have provided the 8/28/2000 interview transcript below. It is lengthy, and much of it is Wood bickering with the interrogators, but I didn't want to cut anything out.

It appears to me PR stays pretty consistent - She bought the 12s, and gave them to JB. She may be fudging a bit on the size JB would wear, if one wants to count that as a lie, I won't argue the point. There is a lot of "I don't remember" but that's typical for a Ramsey interview. In fairness, it's also been 3.5 years since the events took place.

 

[Whaleshark]

Chris, I know you are trying to be fair, but I cannot see putting that size underwear on whether I was the child OR the mother dressing the child for bed, if I (or the child) wore a 4/6. The illustrations above explain why better than any of the thousands of words we have spoken in this thread.

 

[Chrishope]

8 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, we
9 are going to move on to another area. And
10 what I want to discuss with you is the
11 underpants that JonBenet was wearing at the
12 time that she was discovered on the 26th.
13 We are going to try to get some background
14 information on those from you. Hopefully you
15 can help us out a little bit. Okay?
16 I don't, I'll be perfectly honest
17 with you, I don't follow all of the media
18 developments in this case, so I am not quite
19 sure what is out in the public sector. But
20 what I would like to get a feel for is just
21 what your belief is with regard to the
22 significance of the underpants that your
23 daughter was wearing at the time that she
24 was found murdered.
25 MR. WOOD: With all due fairness,
0076
1 didn't you cover that in June of 1998?
2 MR. LEVIN: I don't believe so,
3 and I think that will become apparent.
4 MR. WOOD: Okay. Well, maybe if
5 you help me, just so I understand, when you
6 say what is the significance of it, are you
7 really just trying to find out what she
8 might know about why she was wearing them?
9 I am not sure what significance, with regard
10 to significance --
11 MR. LEVIN: What I would like to
12 know is what Mrs. Ramsey's belief, as she
13 sits here, is significant about the
14 underpants. In a normal homicide case, what
15 kind of underpants someone is wearing is
16 typically not national news. Fair enough?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 MR. LEVIN: But apparently it has
19 become national news, and I just want to get
20 a sense, before I start asking some specific
21 questions, which I hope she can help us
22 with, why you think, what is your
23 understanding of what the significance is.
24 MR. WOOD: Bruce, I don't know,
25 just so it is clear, I don't know that her
0077
1 underwear has become national news.
2 Now, I don't know, sitting here
3 today, I may want to go back and look at
4 them, but it may be something that the
5 tabloids have written about, but I don't know
6 of any national news from reputable news

7 agencies that have made that a major issue.
8 But I am not arguing with that.
9 I just want to make sure I don't agree with
10 you by acquiescence, but --
11 MR. LEVIN: I understand.
12 MR. WOOD: - the question is, I
13 think he wants to know, and maybe I am still
14 not clear, you assume she attaches some
15 significance to it, but I am not sure. If
16 you asked her a factual question, maybe she
17 will understand.
18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start
19 with what - I will make it very simple for
20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you
21 in possession of or what do you know about
22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing
23 at the time she was found murdered?
24 A. I have heard that she had on a
25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.
0078
1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?

5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many
12 trips did you make to New York?
13 A. Two, I believe.
14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the
15 same, same qualification I gave you when we
16 started, which is, I understand that you are
17 not going to give me exact dates, but the
18 two trips you made, did you make those with
19 different groups of people?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip
22 with?
23 A. The first trip was a
24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra
25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan
0079
1 Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her
2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.
3 Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her
4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.
5 Q. And the second trip you made was?
6 A. The second trip we made was with
7 Glen and Susan Stein.
8 Q. Is that the trip -- which trip
9 was the November trip?
10 A. With the children.
11 Q. Was that -- that is the first
12 trip?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the second trip that you and
15 your husband and the Steins took, was that
16 also November, but later in the month, or
17 was that a December trip?
18 A. I think it was December.
19 Q. And maybe this will help jog your
20 memory as to time. I believe that was the
21 time of the Christmas parade in Boulder.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you out of town?
0080

 

[Chrishope]

1 A. I remember that.
2 Q. Which of those two trips did you
3 purchase the Bloomi's?
4 A. The first trip.
5 Q. Was it something that was selected
6 by JonBenet?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. Was it your intention, when you
9 purchased those, for those to be for her,
10 not for some third party as a gift?
11 A. I bought some things that were
12 gifts and some things for her. So I
13 don't --
14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is
15 your best recollection that the purchase of
16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the
17 week, was something that you bought for her,
18 whether it was just I am buying underwear
19 for my kids or these are special, here's a
20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your
21 intention that she would wear those?
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
0081
1 niece.
2 Q. Which niece was that?
3 A. Jenny Davis.
4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do
5 you remember that they come in kind of a
6 plastic see-through plastic container.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. They are rolled up?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
12 niece, and one for JonBenet?
13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or
14 two.
15 Q. Do you remember what size they
16 were?
17 A. Not exactly.
18 Q. JonBenet was found wearing the
19 Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your
20 understanding is correct, that is a fact, you
21 can accept that as a fact, when she was
22 found murdered. Those underpants do not fit

23 her. Were you aware of that?
24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
25 as a matter of fact --
0082
1 MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a
2 matter --
3 MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old
4 child?
5 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as
6 a matter of fact.
7 MR. WOOD: Don't fit her
8 according to whose standard?
9 MR. LEVIN: By --
10 MR. WOOD: I mean, I have got an
11 11-year-old boy, and he wears underwear that
12 potentially hangs down to his knees, Bruce.
13 I mean, I don't know how you can come up
14 with that as a fact. That sounds to me
15 like more of an opinion. Who states that as
16 fact?
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, your
18 daughter weighed, I believe, 45 pounds;
19 correct?
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
21 Q. She was six years old?
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
23 Q. What size underpants would you
24 normally buy for her?
25 A. 8 to 10.
0083
1 Q. Ms. Ramsey, would you say that it
2 would, it is safe to assume that, if she is
3 wearing underpants designed for someone who
4 weighs 85 pounds, who is 10 to 12 years old,
5 that those would not fit her?
6 A. Those -- I mean, I am sure she
7 could wear them, yes, but they wouldn't fit
8 as well as a smaller pair.
9 Q. And as a mother, you would know
10 that someone who is 85 pounds is
11 significantly larger than your little
12 six-year-old?
13 MR. WOOD: Can't we assume that
14 as a matter of 85 is more than 45 without
15 her having to document a mathematical fact,
16 Bruce?
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) 40 pounds is the
18 wrong size pair of underpants, would you

19 agree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.
0084
1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?
0085
1 A. Not specifically.
2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
5 I will give you a minute to think about it
6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
7 down a couple of months of casual
8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it

14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.
0086
1 I mean, if you have ever seen
2 these little panties, there is not too much
3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
5 they were special because we got them up
6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
8 fine with me.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
14 And I am not saying --
15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
25 JonBenet's bathroom?
0087
1 A. Right.
2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
8 think I bought them with the intention of
9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that

11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.
13 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time,
14 how old was Jenny?
15 A. I don't know. Probably -- I
16 don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but
17 I don't know exactly how old she was.
18 Q. Would these panties, size wise, be
19 more appropriate for -- is she an older
20 girl?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I assume a larger girl?
23 A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I
24 mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a
25 young woman, but then she was a little girl.
0088
1 Q. How old is she now?
2 A. She is now 15, I believe.
3 Q. So she would have been about 12
4 or somewhere --
5 A. 11.
6 Q. -- 11, 12?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. And based on the, I guess,
9 dimensions that Mr. Levin has talked about,
10 these would have been a size appropriate for
11 her?
12 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
13 MR. WOOD: Do you know that?
14 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Based on your
15 knowledge of her? I mean, I never have seen
16 this girl, so --
17 MR. WOOD: Guys, I think -- if
18 you all have kids, I mean, I just think you
19 are making assumptions based on poundage,
20 apparently, that isn't necessarily, you know,
21 in touch with the realities with kids and
22 their clothes. But you know, if you know
23 that, Patsy, please tell them.
24 Why don't you go ahead and
25 restate your question.
0089
1 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) You purchased
2 these specifically for a person?

 

[UKGuy]

That or someone mentioned helping her.

I understand what you are saying about staging it to make it appear to have started as an abduction.

The redressing would have hid sexual abuse from PR and the police. Abuse would be for the corner to find later. But the delay wouldn't be long.
No, we don't know PR is lying. We know the size 12s were in the house -PR admits buying them for her niece, and JB is wearing a pair. We know the size 12s were removed from the house, (or at least we strongly believe so, based on police statements) But we don't know that PR had knowledge that they had been removed from the house.

Someone took away the size 12s, and that is true whether they were taken from the drawer, from the basement, or anywhere else. I don't see that taking them from one location is more or less believable than from another location. They were taken. But did PR know that?

We may strongly believe PR is lying, and it's a good bet, but it isn't proven. It's not the "gotchya" that it's often imagined to be.

If JB were wearing 6s at bedtime (assuming there was a bedtime - and there may not have been) then PR could truthfully have said she noticed nothing unusual about the underwear JB had on. The 12s may have been in the drawer -after all, they were somewhere- so we don't know this to be a lie. Just because the police didn't find any 12s in the drawer doesn't mean PR was lying.

If JB had been wearing 12s at bedtime, PR might have been lying about not noticing anything unusual. Then again, if she was tired and in a hurry, possibly not.

That is the million dollar question. But it applies to all scenarios. Someone took the size 12s away, from wherever they were located. Why?

All possibilities.

I'll leave that for another thread and focus on the panties.

Chrishope,

No, we don't know PR is lying. We know the size 12s were in the house -PR admits buying them for her niece, and JB is wearing a pair. We know the size 12s were removed from the house, (or at least we strongly believe so, based on police statements) But we don't know that PR had knowledge that they had been removed from the house.

Correct!

Here are the options as I see them:
1. If Patsy had redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, and then removed the remainder, her explanation for JonBenet wearing them may have been more consistent with the actual evidence?

2. If Patsy had redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, and then someone else removed the remainder, without telling her, patently she would have an absence of knowledge regarding the remaining size-12's.

3. If Anyone other than Patsy had redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, and then anyone else other than Patsy removed the remainder, without telling her, patently she would have an absence of knowledge regarding the remaining size-12's.

Given Patsy's statement regarding the size-12's. Which does not reflect option 1., leaving option 2 or option 3 as choices, we can infer Patsy has a deficit of knowledge regarding the size-12's.

Someone took away the size 12s, and that is true whether they were taken from the drawer, from the basement, or anywhere else. I don't see that taking them from one location is more or less believable than from another location. They were taken. But did PR
know that?

The location does matter since one represents Patsy's version of events and the other is some RDI variant.

In Patsy's version of events, she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's bathroom underwear drawer for her personal use. So if Patsy is telling the truth but is ignorant about their eventual disposition, then the onus is on you to suggest why someone e.g. intruder or ramsey should want to remove the remaining size-12's?

In the RDI version of events we know the size-12's were in the house prior to JonBenet's death but missing shortly afterwards, the important point here is that they were not located in JonBenet's bathroom underwear drawer. They were likely gift wrapped awaiting transportation to Atlanta.

Also the proposition that JonBenet wore those size-12's to the White's Christmas party is forensically testable since there will be fibre transfer to the black velvet pants from whichever underwear JonBenet wore that night.

Patsy herself does not offer any evidence regarding the underwear that JonBenet was wearing the night of the White's party, neither does John.

From this it follows that the size-12's may have been placed on JonBenet after she was assaulted, not before, and the R's cannot refute this.


.

 

[Chrishope]

3 A. Okay.
4 MR. WOOD: Is that your
5 recollection?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 MR. WOOD: Okay.
8 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And I assume
9 you wanted them to fit her and she be able
10 to wear them or there would be no sense in
11 purchasing them; right?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. Would the size that has
14 been described here be appropriate for the
15 size of the girl you purchased them for?
16 A. I was guessing at her size, so I
17 had hoped that they would be.
18 Q. Now, we have talked -- you know,
19 the fact that a boy may wear boxer shorts
20 that go down to his ankles --
21 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
22 Q. --has nothing to do with girls,
23 when you purchase girl's panties; right?
24 MR. WOOD: Come on, Mitch.
25 Mitch --
0090
1 THE WITNESS: I mean, if --
2 MR. WOOD: Don't answer that.
3 That's not a --
4 MR. MORRISSEY: It is different.
5 MR. WOOD: I made the statement
6 because of my kids, but let me just tell
7 you, my nine-year-old daughter likes to wear
8 my XL T-shirts. I mean, you are asking now
9 about the realm of kids, and I don't think
10 that is a factual question that she is
11 really here to give you information about.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Mrs. Ramsey, I
13 never purchased a pair of girl's panties.
14 Okay.
15 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) What do you
16 do, I mean, when you do that, what do you
17 think about as far as the person you're
18 purchasing them for?
19 A. Well, you just look, small,
20 medium, large, you know, and you pick the
21 one you think would most likely fit.
22 Q. And do they have age groups or
23 are they suggested for like a 10-year-old
24 through a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old
25 through a 15-year-old? Do they do it that
0091
1 way too?
2 A. I never paid any attention if
3 they do.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay.
5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it
6 this way. Did you say you bought more than
7 one set of Bloomi's?
8 A. I can't remember.
9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Why is it that you remember
12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of
13 1996?
14 A. Because --
15 MR. WOOD: Because she remembers
16 it. I mean --
17 MR. KANE: Wait a second, Lin.
18 Would you please let her answer the question?
19 It is a simple question.
20 MR. WOOD: Why is it that you
21 remember something?
22 MR. KANE: Yes, why do you
23 remember --
24 MR. WOOD: Because she remembered.
25 Q. (By Mr. Kane) - that, that
0092
1 detail?
2 A. Well, for starters, it has been
3 made such a big detail.
4 Q. Okay, well, that is my question.
5 A. I remember that I -- and I, you
6 know, we were kind of shopping around, and
7 it was close to Christmas season, so we
8 might pick up a little souvenir. I
9 bought -- I think I picked up a little
10 something for a baby-sitter, you know.
11 Q. Where was it that you became
12 aware that this was -- where was it that it
13 was made a big deal? What was the source
14 of your information that Bloomingdale's
15 panties somehow were significant that made
16 you then say, wait a second, did I ever buy
17 those?
18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise
19 recollection of that event occurring where
20 all of a sudden something happened and you
21 decided it was some big deal?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
23 mean, my first thought is something in the
24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything

25 wrong, so --
0093
1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
22 Would that have been about the size pair of
23 panties that she wore when she was six years
24 old?
25 A. I would say more like six to
0094
1 eight. There were probably some in there
2 that were too small.
3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
4 A. Not typically, no.
5 MR. KANE: Okay.
6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you
7 understand the reason we are asking this, we
8 want to make sure that this intruder did not
9 bring these panties with him, this was
10 something --
11 A. Right.
12 Q. - that was in the house.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as
15 you know, that is something that was in this
16 house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,
19 these panties?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Mrs. Ramsey,
22 have you ever seen a crime scene photo of
23 the underwear that your daughter was found
24 in?
25 A. No.
0095
1 Q. Did Lou Schmidt ever show you a
2 photo?
3 A. No.
4 Q. (By Mr. Kane) I want to follow
5 up with something you said earlier. You
6 said she would have just gone in and gotten
7 a pair herself?
8 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
9 Q. Okay. Was she -- did she usually
10 dress herself?
11 A. She was pretty much able to dress
12 herself.
13 Q. And I can't recall if you've
14 ever, and forgive me if you have answered
15 this before, but did she have a bath that
16 day, Christmas Day?
17 MR. WOOD: You have asked that
18 before, several times.

19 Q. (By Mr. Kane) What was the
20 answer? Can you refresh my memory?
21 MR. WOOD: You know that I'm sure
22 better than I do.
23 MR. KANE: Oh, come on, Lin, I
24 was just asking a question so that I can
25 follow up on the thing. If you are going
0096
1 to start getting into you asked that one
2 time, I just don't have a recollection of
3 it.
4 MR. WOOD: Sure I am. Calm
5 down.
6 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Did she have a
7 bath that day?
8 MR. WOOD: Excuse me one second,
9 Patsy. Calm down, Michael. I am not trying
10 to create a problem for you.
11 MR. KANE: You certainly are.
12 MR. WOOD: No, I am not.
13 MR. KANE: You certainly are.
14 MR. WOOD: Let me finish. I am
15 not going to interrupt you. Please don't
16 interrupt me.
17 The fact that you know it has
18 been asked --
19 MR. KANE: I don't know that it
20 has been asked.
21 MR. WOOD: Are you going to let
22 me finish?
23 MR. KANE: No, because I did not
24 say that --
25 MR. WOOD: Then let's take a
0097
1 break, and when you can let me speak without
2 being interrupted, we'll start again.
3 MR. KANE: You mischaracterized
4 what I said. I said I don't remember if it
5 has been asked. Forgive me if it was.
6 MR. WOOD: Let me go back and
7 let's look at it.
8 It is not clear. Why don't we
9 take a break and look and see if it has
10 been asked.
11 MR. KANE: We don't need to take
12 a break. It is just a simple question.
13 MR. WOOD: Listen. All of the
14 questions should be simple.
15 MR. KANE: It is a very simple
16 question. Did she have a bath that day?
17 MR. WOOD: Right. But please
18 remember that I have to make sure that we
19 abide by what you requested.
20 MR. KANE: Well.
21 MR. WOOD: I really am going to
22 take a break.
23 MR. KANE: Go ahead. Make your
24 speech.
25 MR. WOOD: I am not making a
0098
1 speech.
2 MR. KANE: That is exactly what
3 you are doing, Lin.
4 MR. WOOD: I am not making a
5 speech. Chief Beckner asked us to come down
6 here, you all to come out here to ask new
7 questions about developments that have
8 occurred since June of 1998 and information
9 that has been obtained since June of 1998.
10 And I am confident that the
11 question about JonBenet taking a bath or a
12 shower has been asked before, and I would
13 simply say let's don't start, even when it
14 seems like it is not important at the
15 moment, let's don't start going down the road
16 of asking questions that have been asked
17 before because that is specifically what you
18 and Chief Beckner told me you weren't going
19 to do.
20 And so I will be glad at a break
21 to look that up and see if we can find the
22 answer for you. And then we can come back,
23 give her a chance to look and see what she
24 said before, put that in the context of your
25 question and she will answer the question if
0099
1 it is a new one.
2 MR. KANE: Okay, so in other
3 words what you are doing is, and just to
4 make this clear, you're directing your client
5 not to answer that until she's had a chance
6 to go back and look to see whether she's
7 asked and answered that before.
8 MR. WOOD: No. It's really more
9 of a chance for you and I to look and see
10 if she's answered it.
11 MR. KANE: You are directing her
12 not to answer the question?
13 MR. WOOD: I am asking you to --
14 MR. KANE: No. Are you directing
15 her not to answer the question?
16 MR. WOOD: I am asking you to,
17 in the spirit of why you all wanted to come
18 here and we agreed for you to come here
19 about new questions on information developed
20 or obtained since June of 1998, I am asking
21 you, on what appears even to you to be a
22 situation where it probably was asked in June
23 or, if not, April of '97, to let's take a
24 time at a break. You're well prepared here.
25 You've looked at this.
0100
1 MR. KANE: All right.
2 MR. WOOD: If she has been asked
3 that, then you will have your answer. And
4 if she hasn't been asked that, then she will
5 give you that answer today; although, I don't
6 know why you wouldn't have asked her that
7 before.
8 MR. KANE: So you are directing
9 her not to answer that question?
10 MR. WOOD: I am asking you to
11 defer it.
12 MR. KANE: Yes or no, are you
13 directing her not to answer the question?
14 MR. WOOD: I am asking you to
15 defer it, Michael. That's all.
16 MR. KANE: Let me, let me just
17 say something. We are down here to solve a
18 murder. Are you telling me that you are
19 going to tell her not to answer that
20 question, whether it has anything to do with
21 this murder, you are directing her not to
22 answer that question?
23 MR. WOOD: I have not direct --
24 MR. KANE: Because of some,
25 because of some rule that has been
0101
1 established for this?
2 MR. WOOD: Are you through?
3 MR. KANE: Yeah.
4 MR. WOOD: I understand that you
5 are investigating a murder. Do you
6 understand that I understand that?
7 MR. KANE: I hope you do.
8 MR. WOOD: I understand it, Mr.
9 Kane. Now listen to me.
10 I was asked, and my clients
11 agreed to answer new questions about
12 information that has been obtained since June
13 of 1998 after three full days of interviews
14 which had been followed by April of 1997 in
15 almost a full day of an interview by Patsy
16 Ramsey, new questions about new information
17 since June of 1998 or developments that have
18 come up since June of 1998.
19 That was the request made by
20 Chief Beckner. That was what we agreed to
21 do because that is what we were asked to do.
22 Now, if you want to change the
23 format, then let's consider that after we
24 finish this format. But I didn't ask Patsy
25 Ramsey or John Ramsey to go back and study
0102
1 what they had said before to try to memorize
2 it or refresh their recollections, period,
3 because it was represented to me that you
4 weren't going to do that.
5 So if you do it, I am not really
6 directing her not to answer it. I am
7 directing you that you are outside of the
8 scope of your request and, therefore, your
9 question is not fair and appropriate. It is
10 as simple as that. I am not trying to be
11 difficult.
12 MR. KANE: If that is your
13 definition of what is fair, then that is
14 fine. All right. You've made your record.
15 I withdraw that question.
16 MR. WOOD: I think it is very
17 fair. I made my statement. It is not
18 meant to be a record, necessarily.
19 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Here's a question
20 that was not asked, Mrs. Ramsey. Did you
21 dress JonBenet Christmas Day?
22 A. I can't remember.
23 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, do
24 you know whether or not she changed her
25 underwear Christmas Day?
0103
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. We are going to assume the fact
3 that she did not take a bath because you
4 previously stated that. Would she change her
5 underwear if she didn't take a bath on
6 Christmas Day?
7 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. You
8 remember that she has been asked that now.
9 MR. LEVIN: I have known that.
10 MR. WOOD: Why didn't he know
11 that?
12 MR. LEVIN: I can't speak for Mr.
13 Kane.
14 MR. KANE: I don't have a big
15 catalog of every single question and answer.
16 MR. LEVIN: I don't either. I
17 can assure you Mr. Kane knows many facts I
18 don't know.
19 MR. WOOD: Well, you all planned
20 the interview. You have got him over here
21 claiming he doesn't know if a question's been
22 asked. Why didn't you pop up and look over
23 and say she had answered that.
24 MR. LEVIN: I didn't want to
25 interrupt you, Mr. Wood. You were very
0104
1 upset.
2 MR. WOOD: I am not upset.
3 MR. LEVIN: You were upset that
4 you were interrupted by Mr. Kane.
5 MR. WOOD: I'm upset that when I
6 tried to speak I was interrupted, but why
7 didn't you look over and say, Mitch, I mean,
8 Michael, she has answered that.
9 MR. LEVIN: I was just going to
10 let each of you speak and then ask my
11 question.
12 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Do you know if
13 she changed her underwear?
14 A. I do not know.
15 Q. Would it be her routine habit or
16 practice, if she is going out for dinner at
17 friends, for her to change from head to toe,
18 including her underwear, getting dressed to
19 go out for the evening, even if she didn't
20 take a bath?
21 A. I don't know that there is any
22 particular routine. She may have. I don't
23 know.
24 Q. If she listened to mom, would she

 

[Chrishope]

25 have done that? I mean, we are going out,
0105
1 you change from head to toe, wash up?
2 MR. WOOD: You are saying if she
3 had said that?
4 MR. LEVIN: No. I am saying,
5 this child was raised by Mrs. Ramsey, and I
6 am assuming that, in the course of your
7 raising your child, that it was JonBenet, we
8 are going out, even if she hadn't taken a
9 bath, you wash up, you change your clothes,
10 and that would include if she hasn't bathed,
11 change your underwear because she is running
12 around and playing all day.
13 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
14 is what you do with your children?
15 MR. LEVIN: No. I am asking
16 her.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't, I don't
18 remember the course of events --
19 MR. LEVIN: Okay.
20 THE WITNESS: - really.
21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) So you just don't
22 know whether or not she changed her
23 underpants?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. During the course of one of the
0106
1 prior interviews, I think it was '98, but I
2 am not certain, you were asked and stated
3 that, on occasion, she would leave her
4 underclothes at a friend's house if they had
5 gone swimming or gotten wet. Do you
6 remember that?
7 MR. WOOD: Hold on. Do you have
8 a copy of that?
9 MR. LEVIN: I don't have it right
10 here.
11 MR. WOOD: I mean, I asked you
12 all to be able to produce those prior
13 statements so we can look at it in context.
14 MR. LEVIN: We've got it in the
15 computer. Mr. Wood, I will represent to you
16 that that is a statement that your client
17 made. I have a clear recollection. I am
18 not -- this is not an attempt to make her
19 -- I am developing a question that assumes
20 that to be true. I will represent to you
21 that, to a near certainty, as certain as
22 someone can be, in reviewing statements and
23 working on this case for two years, I
24 believe that statement to be made. And I am
25 not trying to trick you or your client. I'm
0107
1 trying - as Mr. Kane said, I am here to
2 try to solve the murder of a young child.
3 And I'm not --
4 MR. WOOD: We are here to help
5 you.
6 MR. LEVIN: And I understand that
7 and I appreciate that.
8 MR. WOOD: Within the request as
9 made and the request as agreed to.
10 MR. LEVIN: I understand that.
11 And if you were a judge, I would look you
12 in the eye and say as an officer of the
13 court, Your Honor, I have no -- I believe in
14 my heart that statement was made. Okay?
15 MR. WOOD: And the judge would
16 look at you, Bruce, and say, Mr. Levin, it
17 is your responsibility, when asking about a
18 prior statement, to produce the statement for
19 the witness to look at to put it into
20 context. Am I right, Mr. Levin? That is
21 all I asked you to do.
22 MR. LEVIN: My judge would take
23 my word because my word is my bond, sir.
24 MR. WOOD: Well, my judge would
25 say the proper examination would give the
0108
1 witness an opportunity, not only to take your
[FONT=&quot] 2 statement as you set it forth[/FONT] , which you
3 admit may or may not be exactly accurate,
4 but to take that statement and look at it in
5 context because I don't know what question
6 you will necessarily follow up with, Bruce.
7 That is all. We are not judges. We are
8 lawyers. But I did ask Chief Beckner, if
9 there were going to be prior statements for
10 you all to bring them so that we could look
11 at them and put her, put them into context.
12 That is all.
13 MR. LEVIN: And we have them. If
14 you want to take time --
15 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I mean, there is
16 a simple way. You recall saying that, don't
17 you? Isn't that the easy way to do it?
18 MR. WOOD: That may be fine, but
19 I think she is entitled to see it anyway.
20 That is all I am saying so she can look at
21 it.
22 MR. LEVIN: If I was in a
23 courtroom and she was under oath. It is not
24 a deposition. This is an interview. That
25 is all.
0109
1 MR. WOOD: She is not. It's an
2 interview. And all I asked going into the
3 interview is, if this came up, because there
4 has been so many hours and days of
5 interviews and statements that, fairly, now
6 two years plus since June of 1998, three
7 years plus since April of 1997, that if
8 there is statements, media or otherwise, put
9 them out there, she will look at it, she
10 will answer your question.
11 MR. LEVIN: Why don't we just ask
12 her if she recalls it, and then we can save
13 some time.
14 MR. WOOD: Well, we can ask her
15 that, and I will let her answer that, Bruce,
16 but I want to set the procedure correctly
17 that, when we get into these things about
18 prior statements, that I really did expect
19 and think it fair that you all have them for
20 her to look at it and put it into context.
21 It may not be of consequence here, but it
22 certainly may be later when there are more
23 difficult questions. Okay?
24 MR. LEVIN: I understand.
25 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Do you remember
0110
1 saying that during one of your interviews?
2 A. Tell me what --
3 Q. That on occasion JonBenet may go
4 over to a friend's house, I think you talked
5 about the White's daughter Daphne, and they
6 could go swimming or do something and she
7 might leave her underwear there, get a clean
8 pair from a friend and then be laundered,
9 returned, you would do the same for her
10 girlfriends who may have been -- got wet
11 from swimming or doing, got dirty playing
12 outside. Do you recall saying that?
13 A. Not specifically.
14 Q. Do you recall that occurring then?
15 A. Probably did. I can't say for
16 sure, but --
17 Q. Okay. What I am interested in is
18 whether or not you have a recollection as to
19 whether or not any of the Bloomi panties,
20 and I certainly wouldn't want to pin you
21 down to the day or the week, all right, but
22 do you ever recall any of the Bloomi panties
23 from November to the time of JonBenet's
24 murder being left at a friend's house and
25 then returned to you?
0111
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you recall any occasions where
3 JonBenet had an accident at school and -- I
4 know that they kept at her school like I
5 think they do at most grammar schools, they
6 have a box of like clean underpants if a kid
7 has an accident at school, do you ever
8 remember her getting to that situation and
9 borrowing panties from the school and having
10 to return them?
11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. I am slightly confused,
13 and I would like this clarified. When I
14 first started to ask you about the purchase
15 of the panties in November, I got the
16 impression that you were somewhat unclear as
17 to whether you bought two sets or one.
18 In follow-up questions, I got the
19 impression that you felt confident that you
20 only bought one. Do you know?
21 A. I really can't remember.
22 Q. Do you recall that you did -- you
23 never mailed this pair out to --
24 A. Jenny, yes.
25 Q. Okay. So if there was an
0112
1 unopened package, it would have been left in
2 the house?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Mrs. Ramsey,
5 prior to going to the Whites, did you see
6 JonBenet in panties? In other words, were
7 you at any point, prior to going to the
8 Whites, in the process of her getting
9 dressed, did you ever see if she was wearing
10 panties?
11 A. I mean, I just probably didn't
12 notice. I would, she must have had them on
13 or I would have certainly noticed if she
14 didn't have any on.
15 Q. When you came home and you got
16 her ready for bed, did you notice if she was
17 wearing panties? When you changed her out
18 of the black velvet --
19 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
20 Q. - type pants --
21 A. Right.
22 Q. -- and into the long underwear
23 pants --
24 A. Uh-huh, right.
25 Q. -- the White ones, did you notice
0113
1 if she had a pair of panties on?
2 A. Yes, she did. I believe she did.
3 Q. Why do you remember that? I
4 mean, what do you remember? I just want to
5 know what you remember about that.
6 A. Well, I took the jeans off and
7 put the long leggies on.
8 Q. And you noticed that she had
9 panties on in that process?
10 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
11 Q. You have to answer yes or no.
12 A. Well, I noticed -- I mean,
13 nothing was unusual. I mean, if she hadn't
14 had panties on, it would have been unusual.
15 So --
16 Q. So there was nothing unusual
17 there?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. When you actually removed those --
20 you have -- they are black velvet pants?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did the panties come down
23 with them when you removed those pants, if
24 you remember?
25 A. I don't remember.
0114
1 Q. If they had, would you remember,
2 or is that too long ago?
3 A. It has been a long time.
4 Q. But did you change -- did you put
5 a fresh pair of panties on her at that point
6 when you were getting her ready for bed?
7 A. No.
8 Q. (By Mr. Wickman) Mrs. Ramsey, I
9 have a daughter myself, and kids do strange
10 things, but was it her habit, when she
11 changed clothes, did she have a routine to
12 put them in a basket if they were dirty?
13 How did that work?
14 A. She usually probably dropped them
15 wherever they came off.
16 MR. WICKMAN: Okay. Thank you.
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Was that pretty
18 much her practice with most of her clothes?
19 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
20 Q. I mean, not just her underwear,
21 just they are off, new pair?
22 A. (Witness nodded head
23 affirmatively).
24 MR. WOOD: Wait until he
25 finishes and then answer.
0115
1 Q. (By Mr. Levin) For the record,
2 you were nodding your head, and I take that

3 as a yes.
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. LEVIN: Anything else on that
6 topic?
7 MR. KANE: No. Go ahead.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

Correct!

Here are the options as I see them:
1. If Patsy had redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, and then removed the remainder, her explanation for JonBenet wearing them may have been more consistent with the actual evidence?

2. If Patsy had redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, and then someone else removed the remainder, without telling her, patently she would have an absence of knowledge regarding the remaining size-12's.

3. If Anyone other than Patsy had redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, and then anyone else other than Patsy removed the remainder, without telling her, patently she would have an absence of knowledge regarding the remaining size-12's.

Given Patsy's statement regarding the size-12's. Which does not reflect option 1., leaving option 2 or option 3 as choices, we can infer Patsy has a deficit of knowledge regarding the size-12's.



The location does matter since one represents Patsy's version of events and the other is some RDI variant.

In Patsy's version of events, she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's bathroom underwear drawer for her personal use. So if Patsy is telling the truth but is ignorant about their eventual disposition, then the onus is on you to suggest why someone e.g. intruder or ramsey should want to remove the remaining size-12's?

In the RDI version of events we know the size-12's were in the house prior to JonBenet's death but missing shortly afterwards, the important point here is that they were not located in JonBenet's bathroom underwear drawer. They were likely gift wrapped awaiting transportation to Atlanta.

Also the proposition that JonBenet wore those size-12's to the White's Christmas party is forensically testable since there will be fibre transfer to the black velvet pants from whichever underwear JonBenet wore that night.

Patsy herself does not offer any evidence regarding the underwear that JonBenet was wearing the night of the White's party, neither does John.

From this it follows that the size-12's may have been placed on JonBenet after she was assaulted, not before, and the R's cannot refute this.


.

No, of course the Rs can't refute it. Anymore than PRs version of events can be refuted.

The location is important, relevant to competing theories, that's true.

It's important that the 12s were not in JBs drawer, but it's also important they are not in the basement. Under any scenario, the 12s have been removed from the house.

I agree with you it's likely PR didn't know the 12s were taken away.

 

[Chrishope]

Chris, I know you are trying to be fair, but I cannot see putting that size underwear on whether I was the child OR the mother dressing the child for bed, if I (or the child) wore a 4/6. The illustrations above explain why better than any of the thousands of words we have spoken in this thread.

I've seen the bloomies experiment. I'm not claiming they are a good fit. I'm not even claiming JB put them on herself, only that it's one possibility. It is in many ways, the simplest explanation.

I'm not trying to be fair, I'm trying not to jump to conclusions.

 

[Chrishope]

I think we've beat this to death, or at any rate have. I'm going to just read for a while and see what others have to say. Thanks everyone - lots of good insights from several posters.

 

[Whaleshark]

maybe it's just semantics, but trying to be fair and not jump to conclusions seems one in the same, and often people start off sentence by saying, "I'm trying to be fair and not jump to any conclusions".....

 

[Chrishope]

maybe it's just semantics, but trying to be fair and not jump to conclusions seems one in the same, and often people start off sentence by saying, "I'm trying to be fair and not jump to any conclusions".....

I thought you meant I was trying to be fair to IDI. I see what you were saying now.

 

[KoldKase]

Patsy Ramsey obviously, and I don't think anyone can reasonably dispute this, was lying to LE in the Atlanta interview regarding the Bloomies.

Look where she tries to FUDGE the truth--I call that lying. She goes so far as to try to claim that JB actually had grown into a size 8 in underwear, and the sizes weren't that different anyway.

She was lying.

LE questioning her pointed out that they collected all the underwear in JB's panty drawer and they were all size 4 to 6...not ONE PAIR was size 8.

Does anyone really believe that Patsy's pageant winning princess, for whom Patsy spent thousands of dollars in pageant costumes alone, hair, make-up, dance/voice lessons, etc., would be walking around in underwear too small for her when Patsy and she actually are on the record as going shopping and picking up underwear for a niece the month before? At Bloomingdale's, no less, where Patsy could easily pick up the prized Bloomies underwear in any size and quantity?

Does Patsy even offer an explanation when she's called on the obvious discrepancy in the size of panties found in JB's drawer and the size Patsy suddenly is claiming she actually wore? Not to mention the unbelievable claim by Patsy that two sizes too large would also fit!

Why would Patsy lie to LE about that? Why on earth would she be interested in creating a false impression about those Bloomies?

Not to mention, why would the Ramseys withhold a package of size 12-14 Bloomies for FIVE YEARS after the murder, which they in fact claimed to DA Lacy when they turned it over to her in 2002 was the actual package missing from the home? The same package LE made explicitly clear to Patsy in August 2000 in Atlanta was critical to the investigation?

As a woman who has worn female underwear for many decades, I can tell you to this day I can't comfortably wear one size too large, as they'll invariably become loose quickly and start to slide down. Two sizes too large, impossible to manage.

Look at my avatar: whether you think the actual Bloomies found on the body would correlate to the difference in sizes as the actual Bloomies used to construct this experiment with a model of the same size and proportions as JB, it's clear to anyone who is objective there would be a problem with the size 12-14 Bloomies on the child.

And that Patsy Ramsey was lying with every word about those Bloomies.

If you don't buy Jayelles experiment, do your own using any brand of underwear you choose. Use yourself as the model and buy underwear two sizes too large.

Then perhaps you will ask yourself why Patsy lied about the Bloomies.

I can't think of any reason a mother who claims to want to find the killer of her child would lie to LE and obstruct the investigation at every turn until she drew her last breath, except that she didn't want LE to find the truth. Patsy did not want LE to identify, arrest, and convict the killer, IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy Ramsey obviously, and I don't think anyone can reasonably dispute this, was lying to LE in the Atlanta interview regarding the Bloomies.

Look where she tries to FUDGE the truth--I call that lying. She goes so far as to try to claim that JB actually had grown into a size 8 in underwear, and the sizes weren't that different anyway.

She was lying.

LE questioning her pointed out that they collected all the underwear in JB's panty drawer and they were all size 4 to 6...not ONE PAIR was size 8.

Does anyone really believe that Patsy's pageant winning princess, for whom Patsy spent thousands of dollars in pageant costumes alone, hair, make-up, dance/voice lessons, etc., would be walking around in underwear too small for her when Patsy and she actually are on the record as going shopping and picking up underwear for a niece the month before? At Bloomingdale's, no less, where Patsy could easily pick up the prized Bloomies underwear in any size and quantity?

Does Patsy even offer an explanation when she's called on the obvious discrepancy in the size of panties found in JB's drawer and the size Patsy suddenly is claiming she actually wore? Not to mention the unbelievable claim by Patsy that two sizes too large would also fit!

Why would Patsy lie to LE about that? Why on earth would she be interested in creating a false impression about those Bloomies?

Not to mention, why would the Ramseys withhold a package of size 12-14 Bloomies for FIVE YEARS after the murder, which they in fact claimed to DA Lacy when they turned it over to her in 2002 was the actual package missing from the home? The same package LE made explicitly clear to Patsy in August 2000 in Atlanta was critical to the investigation?

As a woman who has worn female underwear for many decades, I can tell you to this day I can't comfortably wear one size too large, as they'll invariably become loose quickly and start to slide down. Two sizes too large, impossible to manage.

Look at my avatar: whether you think the actual Bloomies found on the body would correlate to the difference in sizes as the actual Bloomies used to construct this experiment with a model of the same size and proportions as JB, it's clear to anyone who is objective there would be a problem with the size 12-14 Bloomies on the child.

And that Patsy Ramsey was lying with every word about those Bloomies.

If you don't buy Jayelles experiment, do your own using any brand of underwear you choose. Use yourself as the model and buy underwear two sizes too large.

Then perhaps you will ask yourself why Patsy lied about the Bloomies.

I can't think of any reason a mother who claims to want to find the killer of her child would lie to LE and obstruct the investigation at every turn until she drew her last breath, except that she didn't want LE to find the truth. Patsy did not want LE to identify, arrest, and convict the killer, IMO.

KoldKase,
I do not doubt she lied to the interviewers. She also had advance information that JonBenet had been found wearing the size-12's. It was splashed in the tabloids.

So its not as if the oversized underwear was an unknown topic. Patsy had some time to cook a story up. So why did Patsy mess up. She must have thought whoever redressed JonBenet will have put the remaining pairs into JonBenet's underwear drawer.

If it was Pam who removed the remaining size-12's and JonBenet's worn size-6 underwear. Why did John not mention this to Patsy. John knew that the size-12's might come up, so why did he not tell Patsy?

Looks like John did not want Patsy to know that he had redressed JonBenet in clean underwear, wonder why? I'm assuming it was him since if it had been Patsy she would have gone upstairs and fetched a pair, any pair, of size-6 underwear. And of course, fibers from John's shirt were allegedly found inside the size-12's.

Also I reckon JonBenet may have been dressed in the pink nightgown, but when the size-12's were placed upon her they fell down. So John removed the gown put her white gap top on her, and added the longjohns, since these effectively hold up the size-12's.

Also when Patsy was questiond about dressing JonBenet in those longjohns. She was asked if she had noticed if JonBenet had been wearing underwear. At this point she should have said oh I think she had on the size-12 Bloomingdales, and as in her Atlanta interview about the size-12's just talk her way around the subject. Except, no, amnesia strikes!

The same with John. But I think it was John's intention that the size-12's act as staging of some sort. So why did he not backup his own staging by answering Yes, JonBenet was wearing the size-12's. I remember seing them.

Its as if both parents know that the size-12's are significant and simply develop amnesia.



.

 

[ravenwitch]

What if the panties are totally irrelevent?
What if PR bought them for Jenny and JBR asked for them because she liked the day of the week logo and her mom went ahead and gave them to her?
When my niece wore a size 6, she often stole (borrowed) her sisters size 12 underwear. Yes, they were too big but NO ONE noticed unless she was prancing around in nothing else.

Patsy doesn't remember for sure which pairs, sizes, how many she bought. uhh... so? I have no idea what store or size the majority of my kids undies are. My son has some that are too small. I forget to weed them out. Some that are too big. He got them for Christmas and wanted to open them. They are two sizes too big. Yeah, he wears them. The come almost to his armpits. My friend calls them Erkle pants. Almost no one sees his undies, so who cares.

So, just saying, the whole undie thing may mean almost nothing.

 

[SunnieRN]

I truly believe that Patsy should have been aware of what size undies her daughter wore. In testimony, she stated that JonBenet wore size 8 undies. There were 12 (?) pairs of undies taken out of JonBenets drawer. There were NO size 8's and no size 12's. If Patsy was telling the truth, they should have been there. If she lied about that, she could have lied about many other things also.

Maybe underwear and sizes are not important, but the size you STATE your daughter wears, should be in her drawer.

 

[ravenwitch]

Maybe underwear and sizes are not important, but the size you STATE your daughter wears, should be in her drawer.

I agree with that! At least a few pairs should match. None???

 

[erinleigh]

did JonBenet wear pullups ever since she wet the bed? maybe the bloomies fit over pullups? i still dont know why they would be found on her body sans pullup so that doesnt even really make sense. it makes me wonder who redressed her and where they got the size 8's from. not being able to find the rest of them make me believe for some reason the size 8's were on purpose. but why?
i know people thinkg the bloomies are rehased ad nausem but the stick out to me as some sort of clue. just dont have a theory on why.