The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie Influence

[CloudedTruth]

So recently there was an inference that there was no evidence that Patsy had never read the Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, and that she only quoted from a stage version once.

I thought it would be interesting to visit this subject and its potential influence on Patsy. Patsy participated in theater and performing in High School and in college, and also performed in the pageants she participated in. And while we are unable to state with 100% certainty that she read the book, she certainly was familiar with the play. First published in the New Yorker Magazine it was later published as a book in 1961. In 1966, the first stage version was performed in London starring Vanessa Redgrave and Olivia Hussey. Two years later it opened on Broadway starring Zoe Caldwell who won a Tony for her performance. In 1969 the film was released starring Maggie Smith who won the Academy Award for her performance. Needless to say, in whatever form it has been presented, it has remained very popular throughout the years. Here is what Patsy had to say to Det. Trujillo when she finally agreed to be interviewed by police:

THOMAS: (Inaudible) Miss Jean Brody.

PATSY: Your right.

TRUJILLO: Was that, was that earlier?

PR: “The Pride of Miss Jean Brody.” Well actual. . . no it wasn’t, actually what happened, uh, I did the Miss Jean Brody, I competed in high school with that and uh, placed nationally with it and then I had done that for Miss West Virginia and won with that and then when you go to Miss America you have to do through this business of um, in the event you make the top ten and your on television there are all these rights and royalties or whatever they call it and uh, I have, they have to give you clearance, okay, and to make a long story short, I was unable to get clearance for this. Uh, I can’t remember exactly the details, but uh, I ended up writing a dialog that I used and I don’t even remember, but it had a lot of the same characterizations and that kind of thing. It was all, I was definitely thrilled when I won the talent, you know, because it was a real chore getting there.
As you can see, she performed it more than once and had to write her own adaptation in order to avoid the issues that obtaining clearances presented. I think it's safe to say she was well acquainted with the story.

The references in the ransom note and this case are hard to ignore. Quote from the book / play:
“Sandy screamed. Monica, whose face was becoming very red, swung the attaché case which held her books, so that it hit the girls who stood in its path and made them stand back from her.”
The speciality of the feast was pineapple cubes with cream, and the speciality of the day was that they were left to themselves. Both girls saved the cream to the last, then ate it in spoonfuls.

“Oh dear,” said Rose out loud one day when they were settled to essay writing, “I can’t remember how you spell ‘possession.’ Are there two s’s or—?”​

Coincidence? Certainly possible. However since one of her talent presentations was a full 10 minute skit from the play, she had to have spent considerable time memorizing and practicing the lines.

Patsy also said at one point that the dramatic interpretation that she did for the pageants involved her playing two of the characters, Miss MacKay and Jean Brodie. There is a scene in the story that revolves around a fake letter written by two of Miss Brodie's students pretending to be her. It involves Miss Brodie doing her own amateur handwriting and linguistic analysis. From the 1969 film version:

“It is in fact a letter. It was found by Ms. McKenzie in a library book. She glanced at it, but, after the first sentence she dare not actually read it, she brought it instantly to me.”
After reading the letter aloud, Miss MacKay hands the letter to Miss Brodie and Jean offers this analysis:
“It is a literary collaboration, two separate hands are involved. One of the authors slants her tail consonants in an unorthodox manner and the other does not. Also, the paper seems somewhat aged.”
Miss MacKay then tries to force Miss Brodie to resign, and Jean then delivers the following statement:

“I will not resign, and you will not dismiss me, Miss MacKay. You will not use that excuse of that pathetic, that humorous document to blackmail me. Mr. Louder, you are witness to this. Miss MacKay has made totally unsupported accusations against my name and yours. If she has one authentic thread of evidence. Just one. Let her bring it forth. Otherwise, if one more word of this outrageous calumny reaches my ears, I shall sue. I shall take Miss MacKay to the public courts and I shall sue the trustees of Marcia Blain, if they support her. I will not stand quietly by and allow myself to be crucified by a woman whose fit of frustration has overcome her judgement. If scandal is to your taste Miss MacKay, I shall give you a feast!

Patsy was known to reference lines from books and films. She had a flair for the dramatic and it fits with her personality that she would be influenced by what she read and saw in movies. Here's another one. Remember the film The Shining where Jack Nicholson's character writes over and over and over again the sentence, "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy", as seen as a full page on his typewriter? Christmas newsletter that Patsy wrote, "all work and no play makes John a dull boy". Of course we are all familiar with the other film quotes that appear in the ransom note.

Again, of course this all could be just coincidences. Rather eerie from my perspective though.

I also did theater starting in elementary school, throughout high school and then went on to a performing arts college. If you are into that sort of thing and serious about it which clearly Patsy was, you don't just pick scenes from plays without having a full understanding of the character(s) and the substance of the play. You read the script in its entirety. You seek out the book if there is one that the play is based upon. If the play is being performed in your vicinity, you go see it. If there's a film version you go see it. You do the work, you do the research to understand the character you are playing and what their motivation is. Patsy's familiarity with The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie was obvious. To downplay that she wasn't all that familiar with it is simply disingenuous and follows a pattern that we have seen from Team Ramsey all along.

 

[887sMtreme]

So recently there was an inference that there was no evidence that Patsy had never read the Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, and that she only quoted from a stage version once.

I thought it would be interesting to visit this subject and its potential influence on Patsy. Patsy participated in theater and performing in High School and in college, and also performed in the pageants she participated in. And while we are unable to state with 100% certainty that she read the book, she certainly was familiar with the play. First published in the New Yorker Magazine it was later published as a book in 1961. In 1966, the first stage version was performed in London starring Vanessa Redgrave and Olivia Hussey. Two years later it opened on Broadway starring Zoe Caldwell who won a Tony for her performance. In 1969 the film was released starring Maggie Smith who won the Academy Award for her performance. Needless to say, in whatever form it has been presented, it has remained very popular throughout the years. Here is what Patsy had to say to Det. Trujillo when she finally agreed to be interviewed by police:

THOMAS: (Inaudible) Miss Jean Brody.

PATSY: Your right.

TRUJILLO: Was that, was that earlier?

PR: “The Pride of Miss Jean Brody.” Well actual. . . no it wasn’t, actually what happened, uh, I did the Miss Jean Brody, I competed in high school with that and uh, placed nationally with it and then I had done that for Miss West Virginia and won with that and then when you go to Miss America you have to do through this business of um, in the event you make the top ten and your on television there are all these rights and royalties or whatever they call it and uh, I have, they have to give you clearance, okay, and to make a long story short, I was unable to get clearance for this. Uh, I can’t remember exactly the details, but uh, I ended up writing a dialog that I used and I don’t even remember, but it had a lot of the same characterizations and that kind of thing. It was all, I was definitely thrilled when I won the talent, you know, because it was a real chore getting there.
As you can see, she performed it more than once and had to write her own adaptation in order to avoid the issues that obtaining clearances presented. I think it's safe to say she was well acquainted with the story.

The references in the ransom note and this case are hard to ignore. Quote from the book / play:
“Sandy screamed. Monica, whose face was becoming very red, swung the attaché case which held her books, so that it hit the girls who stood in its path and made them stand back from her.”
The speciality of the feast was pineapple cubes with cream, and the speciality of the day was that they were left to themselves. Both girls saved the cream to the last, then ate it in spoonfuls.

“Oh dear,” said Rose out loud one day when they were settled to essay writing, “I can’t remember how you spell ‘possession.’ Are there two s’s or—?”​

Coincidence? Certainly possible. However since one of her talent presentations was a full 10 minute skit from the play, she had to have spent considerable time memorizing and practicing the lines.

Patsy also said at one point that the dramatic interpretation that she did for the pageants involved her playing two of the characters, Miss MacKay and Jean Brodie. There is a scene in the story that revolves around a fake letter written by two of Miss Brodie's students pretending to be her. It involves Miss Brodie doing her own amateur handwriting and linguistic analysis. From the 1969 film version:

“It is in fact a letter. It was found by Ms. McKenzie in a library book. She glanced at it, but, after the first sentence she dare not actually read it, she brought it instantly to me.”
After reading the letter aloud, Miss MacKay hands the letter to Miss Brodie and Jean offers this analysis:
“It is a literary collaboration, two separate hands are involved. One of the authors slants her tail consonants in an unorthodox manner and the other does not. Also, the paper seems somewhat aged.”
Miss MacKay then tries to force Miss Brodie to resign, and Jean then delivers the following statement:

“I will not resign, and you will not dismiss me, Miss MacKay. You will not use that excuse of that pathetic, that humorous document to blackmail me. Mr. Louder, you are witness to this. Miss MacKay has made totally unsupported accusations against my name and yours. If she has one authentic thread of evidence. Just one. Let her bring it forth. Otherwise, if one more word of this outrageous calumny reaches my ears, I shall sue. I shall take Miss MacKay to the public courts and I shall sue the trustees of Marcia Blain, if they support her. I will not stand quietly by and allow myself to be crucified by a woman whose fit of frustration has overcome her judgement. If scandal is to your taste Miss MacKay, I shall give you a feast!

Patsy was known to reference lines from books and films. She had a flair for the dramatic and it fits with her personality that she would be influenced by what she read and saw in movies. Here's another one. Remember the film The Shining where Jack Nicholson's character writes over and over and over again the sentence, "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy", as seen as a full page on his typewriter? Christmas newsletter that Patsy wrote, "all work and no play makes John a dull boy". Of course we are all familiar with the other film quotes that appear in the ransom note.

Again, of course this all could be just coincidences. Rather eerie from my perspective though.

I also did theater starting in elementary school, throughout high school and then went on to a performing arts college. If you are into that sort of thing and serious about it which clearly Patsy was, you don't just pick scenes from plays without having a full understanding of the character(s) and the substance of the play. You read the script in its entirety. You seek out the book if there is one that the play is based upon. If the play is being performed in your vicinity, you go see it. If there's a film version you go see it. You do the work, you do the research to understand the character you are playing and what their motivation is. Patsy's familiarity with The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie was obvious. To downplay that she wasn't all that familiar with it is simply disingenuous and follows a pattern that we have seen from Team Ramsey all along.

Absolutely spot on. Something never mentioned about this favorite book of PATSY’s is that throughout the novel, Jean Brodie evolves into a full-fledged fascist.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Oops! That first line should have read "no evidence that Patsy EVER read The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. Not never.......

 

[CloudedTruth]

Absolutely spot on. Something never mentioned about this favorite book of PATSY’s is that throughout the novel, Jean Brodie evolves into a full-fledged fascist.

Yes. I read recently some comments about critics arguing that Brodie’s attraction to fascism was motivated by egotism and romanticism rather than a reasoned political leaning. Also that she was not really aware of the violence behind the idealistic rhetoric and aesthetic appeal.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

The references in the ransom note and this case are hard to ignore. Quote from the book / play:
“Sandy screamed. Monica, whose face was becoming very red, swung the attaché case which held her books, so that it hit the girls who stood in its path and made them stand back from her.”
The speciality of the feast was pineapple cubes with cream, and the speciality of the day was that they were left to themselves. Both girls saved the cream to the last, then ate it in spoonfuls.

“Oh dear,” said Rose out loud one day when they were settled to essay writing, “I can’t remember how you spell ‘possession.’ Are there two s’s or—?”​

Are all of these actually present in the stage play. I don't have it myself, but a friend has told me the pineapple bit isn't.

Absolutely spot on. Something never mentioned about this favorite book of PATSY’s is that throughout the novel, Jean Brodie evolves into a full-fledged fascist.

I don't believe Patsy or anyone else has ever claimed that was her favourite book. Like I said elsewhere, we don't even have any evidence she read the book

 

[887sMtreme]

Yes. I read recently some comments about critics arguing that Brodie’s attraction to fascism was motivated by egotism and romanticism rather than a reasoned political leaning. Also that she was not really aware of the violence behind the idealistic rhetoric and aesthetic appeal.

Oh surely. Brody seemed attracted to the traditional ORDER promised by the fascists. Her lack of practical understanding — or rather, avoidance of it — is a fascinating dark mirror with respect to the Ramseys.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Oh surely. Brody seemed attracted to the traditional ORDER promised by the fascists. Her lack of practical understanding — or rather, avoidance of it — is a fascinating dark mirror with respect to the Ramseys.

I was intrigued by the comments about egotism and romanticism. I think there is much to suggest in what we know about Patsy that is how she looked at a lot of things. Aesthetic appeal.

Brodie would take a trip to Italy every year and found it to be enchanting. She was fascinated by Mussolini. But she avoided the realities. She taught her students about love & ideals, but not the facts.

 

[InadequateAttaché]

(New here btw )

Regarding the film The Shining, there is a heavy theme of child abuse, parents losing their minds or one going psychotic and the other having a breakdown, the abused child attempting to bring outside help into the situation and being “corrected” for it, etc. Also the prior injury Jack had caused Danny, drunkenly recalling how he had a “momentary loss of muscular coordination”. And a pivotal scene where Danny goes to get his fire-engine toy and finds Jack awake in a stupor and then sits in his lap as Jack menacingly assures him how he would never ever hurt him. And the slashy mannerisms and music and edits make us subconsciously think he will in fact hurt him badly…

I have found that The Shining sticks with people even if they have only seen it once, especially if the subject matter hits a little too close to home. For example my parents saw it when it came out, refuse to see it ever again, yet remember most of it pretty clearly if asked or referenced. I’m sure Patsy saw it at least once upon release. So it’s interesting that she would be quoting “all work and no play makes (John) a dull boy”. Adult boy?

The Ramsey Home in descriptions has always reminded me of the Overlook Hotel. Like even John Andrew Ramsey saying it’s hard to get used to it, lots of doors and stairs up and down, takes some time etc. And that creepy shot the media always uses of the front of the house with that Pyramid type shape front. They never ever went back. Haunted? Was Patsy’s sister spooked when she went back and quietly went through each room? If a neighbor “psychically sensed” a bad vibe and negative energy scream, could Patsy’s sister have felt anything visiting later? The Amityville Horror Defeo house is another “Overlook hotel” like design, Blood red carpets on the stairs under professionally commissioned paintings of the dysfunctional family sat happily together...

Honestly sometimes reading about JBR case i get that weird feeling like… is this even real? Did Jon Benét really exist? Why does this all seem like a movie? I think what you have pointed out about The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie is hugely significant. Lately I have been spending lots of time reading about this case, again (pretty familiar with it all in detail, though much still to discover), after a long break from the last time! And when i’m done i set it aside and then just let my mind daydream and drift a bit freely. I think sometimes we can gain valid insights into our lives or life in general this way that are somehow deeper and truer than the results of logical thinking. And lately where my mind goes is to Patsy Ramsey plotting this whole thing as a sick but in many ways quite brilliant way of making herself and her daughter and family famous, unforgettable, stars forever in our culture.

Maybe Patsy in her younger years invested so much of herself mentally into her goals of the Miss America stuff only to find that in a flash she had become older, no longer viable in that world, yet with so much to offer. Sometimes talented people can be aware of their great potential even when nobody else is or cares to see it. To me Patsy seems like that, I get the sense from all her big to-do’s it’s like she’s saying Hello? Did you all forget about me? I’m Patsy Ramsey, you will not forget me! Wait and see! There’s more than meets the eye! Wave to the camera, Jon Benét!

And of course, i don’t mean to make light of what happened at all. The other night i looked at the crime scene pics of Jon Benét for the first time ever. I had read descriptions prior to that and seen other photos but never wanted to actually see her body etc. It made me cry for like an hour and i had a strong physical reaction well up inside of me where i felt like declaring to the world The Ramsey’s Are Innocent! Because it just seemed so unfathomable they or one of them or two of them could have done any of it. I ditched the BDI theory pretty early on, I just don’t see his interviews or the Dr Phil interview like others do. An awkward smile doesn’t mean he is The Joker. I believe John actually when he said, (imho like a good loving dad) “that’s how Burke is, if you ask him the time he smiles and tells you”. I actually find it kind of a sweet quirk, and much better than always frowning! And when Burke talks of still talking to his sister’s spirit, saying thanks for watching over me, etc what it says to me is total innocence and trust. Like Burke knows, no matter what the heck happened, he was “good” with his sister and feels she lives on in spirit and cares about him still. I think the stories of his issues with “#2 stuff” may be exaggerated and maybe completely made up. It’s disturbing to me how sooo many people get into this case and go all in on the ‘Burke was a devious sister hating Pineapple-hoarding golf club whacking, flashlight swinging diabolical genius and murderer!’ Oh and he also framed Patsy by referencing her favorite book that no 10 year old boy would want to even read a page out of at all!

And yet by all accounts, JBR would often crash in Burke’s room? Oh, such a scary big brother, that she,.. likes to be with him, trusts him enough to fall asleep near him after they are done enjoying their toys and stuff. It just doesn’t really add up for me. When i was Burke’s age, my friend two years older whacked me hard in the head with a wooden hockey stick, that same way, like raising it behind him when i was foolishly stood there. It knocked me out and i remember him and the other boys sorta laughing while explaining to my dad what happened. I never once held it against them, i knew it was an accident, and boys tend to laugh these things off or laugh nervously etc. If Burke had such uncontrollable outbursts (as BDI speculate, over… a… slice of…. Fruit…), it would have got much worse in his teens and 20s!

Sorry for rambling on many points, i just have a ton of thoughts. I feel so deep in this darn case. I think it is very important that we keep trying to figure it all out. I’m not quite sure why besides wanting to do the right thing for Jon Benét, maybe that is the whole reason itself?

 

[CloudedTruth]

(New here btw )

Regarding the film The Shining, there is a heavy theme of child abuse, parents losing their minds or one going psychotic and the other having a breakdown, the abused child attempting to bring outside help into the situation and being “corrected” for it, etc. Also the prior injury Jack had caused Danny, drunkenly recalling how he had a “momentary loss of muscular coordination”. And a pivotal scene where Danny goes to get his fire-engine toy and finds Jack awake in a stupor and then sits in his lap as Jack menacingly assures him how he would never ever hurt him. And the slashy mannerisms and music and edits make us subconsciously think he will in fact hurt him badly…

I have found that The Shining sticks with people even if they have only seen it once, especially if the subject matter hits a little too close to home. For example my parents saw it when it came out, refuse to see it ever again, yet remember most of it pretty clearly if asked or referenced. I’m sure Patsy saw it at least once upon release. So it’s interesting that she would be quoting “all work and no play makes (John) a dull boy”. Adult boy?

The Ramsey Home in descriptions has always reminded me of the Overlook Hotel. Like even John Andrew Ramsey saying it’s hard to get used to it, lots of doors and stairs up and down, takes some time etc. And that creepy shot the media always uses of the front of the house with that Pyramid type shape front. They never ever went back. Haunted? Was Patsy’s sister spooked when she went back and quietly went through each room? If a neighbor “psychically sensed” a bad vibe and negative energy scream, could Patsy’s sister have felt anything visiting later? The Amityville Horror Defeo house is another “Overlook hotel” like design, Blood red carpets on the stairs under professionally commissioned paintings of the dysfunctional family sat happily together...

Honestly sometimes reading about JBR case i get that weird feeling like… is this even real? Did Jon Benét really exist? Why does this all seem like a movie? I think what you have pointed out about The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie is hugely significant. Lately I have been spending lots of time reading about this case, again (pretty familiar with it all in detail, though much still to discover), after a long break from the last time! And when i’m done i set it aside and then just let my mind daydream and drift a bit freely. I think sometimes we can gain valid insights into our lives or life in general this way that are somehow deeper and truer than the results of logical thinking. And lately where my mind goes is to Patsy Ramsey plotting this whole thing as a sick but in many ways quite brilliant way of making herself and her daughter and family famous, unforgettable, stars forever in our culture.

Maybe Patsy in her younger years invested so much of herself mentally into her goals of the Miss America stuff only to find that in a flash she had become older, no longer viable in that world, yet with so much to offer. Sometimes talented people can be aware of their great potential even when nobody else is or cares to see it. To me Patsy seems like that, I get the sense from all her big to-do’s it’s like she’s saying Hello? Did you all forget about me? I’m Patsy Ramsey, you will not forget me! Wait and see! There’s more than meets the eye! Wave to the camera, Jon Benét!

And of course, i don’t mean to make light of what happened at all. The other night i looked at the crime scene pics of Jon Benét for the first time ever. I had read descriptions prior to that and seen other photos but never wanted to actually see her body etc. It made me cry for like an hour and i had a strong physical reaction well up inside of me where i felt like declaring to the world The Ramsey’s Are Innocent! Because it just seemed so unfathomable they or one of them or two of them could have done any of it. I ditched the BDI theory pretty early on, I just don’t see his interviews or the Dr Phil interview like others do. An awkward smile doesn’t mean he is The Joker. I believe John actually when he said, (imho like a good loving dad) “that’s how Burke is, if you ask him the time he smiles and tells you”. I actually find it kind of a sweet quirk, and much better than always frowning! And when Burke talks of still talking to his sister’s spirit, saying thanks for watching over me, etc what it says to me is total innocence and trust. Like Burke knows, no matter what the heck happened, he was “good” with his sister and feels she lives on in spirit and cares about him still. I think the stories of his issues with “#2 stuff” may be exaggerated and maybe completely made up. It’s disturbing to me how sooo many people get into this case and go all in on the ‘Burke was a devious sister hating Pineapple-hoarding golf club whacking, flashlight swinging diabolical genius and murderer!’ Oh and he also framed Patsy by referencing her favorite book that no 10 year old boy would want to even read a page out of at all!

And yet by all accounts, JBR would often crash in Burke’s room? Oh, such a scary big brother, that she,.. likes to be with him, trusts him enough to fall asleep near him after they are done enjoying their toys and stuff. It just doesn’t really add up for me. When i was Burke’s age, my friend two years older whacked me hard in the head with a wooden hockey stick, that same way, like raising it behind him when i was foolishly stood there. It knocked me out and i remember him and the other boys sorta laughing while explaining to my dad what happened. I never once held it against them, i knew it was an accident, and boys tend to laugh these things off or laugh nervously etc. If Burke had such uncontrollable outbursts (as BDI speculate, over… a… slice of…. Fruit…), it would have got much worse in his teens and 20s!

Sorry for rambling on many points, i just have a ton of thoughts. I feel so deep in this darn case. I think it is very important that we keep trying to figure it all out. I’m not quite sure why besides wanting to do the right thing for Jon Benét, maybe that is the whole reason itself?

Very interesting! I had not thought about how the Ramsey home is similar to the Overlook Hotel in some ways. It was originally built in 1927, and from what I understand went through more than one renovation. Some old houses have histories that some people can pick up on. The neighbor who allegedly heard the scream was dismissed by her comments that she made because of the prevailing "attitude" she encountered, but maybe she was on to something. Digging through all the information we find that another neighbor heard the scream too. This was not only not reported, but apparently not shared with Melody Stanton at the time.

I do think that PR was going through some "stuff". She kind of had it all as a younger woman, beauty, a career and then she "married up" and was living the high life until she was diagnosed with cancer. That not only robbed her of her health, but of her looks too, to a certain extent. Both she and JR proclaimed rather loudly (a little too emphatically?) that the pageants were just something fun for her and JB to share. But the evidence shows it was way more than just that. It was an obsession, it consumed her. As did putting on lavish displays with their home, for holidays, for the parties for JR's business that she arranged. It all very much says, "look at me!" I look at PR after her cancer treatment and I don't see a 39 year old woman. Her hairstyle, the way she dressed, she looked older. And there are clues that she was worried about JR's roving eye.

I'm not sure I agree that this was all plotted out by PR, but I do think that she may have been in crisis. JR left a lot for her to be responsible for, and was for the most part absent a lot of the time. She was in charge of the house, the kids, pretty much everything leaving him the freedom to essentially be a workaholic, absent husband and father. Yes, she had hired help for the house, but even they couldn't keep up with all that was asked of them. PR herself was a lousy housekeeper and I have to also question her skills as a mother. We have heard that JR had recently expressed his frustration about the state of the house to her. It was Christmas time, there were events that JB was involved in, parties to attend, parties to host and packing for not one but two upcoming trips. She wasn't that far out from the invasive cancer treatments either, which left her with anxiety and panic attacks in addition to the other physical, mental and emotional after-effects of what that treatment does to you. And where was JR during all of this? Working. He had to be reminded by a colleague and friends that he needed to be more supportive. I think PR by the time Christmas of 1996 rolled around was a ticking time bomb.

And to keep it short, I'll just say I agree about your thoughts about BR. And I also agree that the main reason many of us are here is because we want to see justice for JB.