The Ramseys are Cleared

[BBB167893]

Jurors most certainly do not always follow jury instructions. I tell law students that if they want to meet a jury, go online.

I've seen a decay in jury quality to a point to where I believe it is time that we either have professional jurors (especially in capital cases) or we require all prospective jurors to first pass an applied logic test before they can be considered for voir dire.

Wudge, you and I agree! My mother, RIP, said the EXACT same thing!

I have long said that if the Ramseys had been indicted, there was a very good chance they would have been convicted.

Again, we are in agreement! Boy, that must be a record!

Obviously, my position is not based on proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Mine is, but I see what you're saying. I do. MY OPINION: the doubts I've heard about their guilt are not reasonable. You can take that as a pun if you like, but that's not my intent. To me, and again, this is just my two cents, they'd be doing the right thing for the wrong reason. But unlike some people, maybe you, I don't know, I don't have any kind of moral problem with doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. Indeed, I count on it. To me, as long as the right thing gets done at all, the reasons are none of my business.

My position is based on my belief that many stealth jurors would have made it into the jury box.

I don't doubt it. Any jury you pick, at least one like me is gonna be there. Incidentally, I have an idea what you mean, but just for the tally books, what do you mean exactly when you say "stealth juror?"

 

[Wudge]

Yes, I understand.

But I don't know if you can 100% rule out the possibility that the child transferred dna she picked up innocently from under her nails TO her own vaginal area & to her own waistband.

IF they would confirm that this same male DNA can be matched on the other items we KNOW the perp had to touch, I'd be convinced.

They open the door BUT they won't walk through. Why?

How many raindrops make a flood?

 

[LI_Mom]

She shouldn't have HAD to learn it the hard way, Wudge. That's my whole point. She didn't follow the most basic procedures that a first-year law student would know!

Amen to that.

If Lacy set out to intentionally botch the handling of Karr she couldn't have done a better job.


And let's not forget that Karr's own innocent children were probably deeply hurt by that whole appalling episode... dragging him back, identifying his whole family, disclosing all the horrifying fantasies & then seeing him walk on everything. God knows how these kids are managing.

 

[LI_Mom]

How many raindrops make a flood?

That's easy....... One.

But then we don't know which ONE it is, do we?

 

[DeeDee249]

Here's another thought. IF the male DNA did happen to belong to someone who was under 10, would they be allowed to say who, under Colorado law? Or would they simply say there's no match, so the Rs are "cleared". The way I understand it, if there was a match to a person who with immunity from being prosecuted or even ACCUSED, they would not even be able to admit the match.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

I don't doubt it. Any jury you pick, at least one like me is gonna be there. Incidentally, I have an idea what you mean, but just for the tally books, what do you mean exactly when you say "stealth juror?"

Stealth jurors are pre-decided on "guilt". They pretend to be impartial in the hope that they will be seated so they can cast their vote for their pre-determined improper prejudice.

 

[BBB167893]

That's what I thought. Thanks.

Just for the record, I could live with that in this case (right thing for wrong reasons, and all that) but I'd probably have a big knock in my conscience.

I'm not trying to be hostile, Wudge, not to you, anyway. I'm just trying to do what I think is right, like my mother and father tried to teach me. But sometimes it's just not that easy to juggle wothout dropping a few rings, you know? That's all I'll say about that.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Yes, I understand.

But I don't know if you can 100% rule out the possibility that the child transferred DNA she picked up innocently from under her nails TO her own vaginal area & to her own waistband.

IF they would confirm that this same male DNA can be matched on the other items we KNOW the perp had to touch, I'd be convinced.

They open the door BUT they won't walk through. Why?

That's the million dollar question isn't it?

or simply............Match it to a murderer...and I'll believe it!

 

[twinkiesmom]

Have they ruled out all her playmates and party guests from that day as a source of the male DNA? She could have picked up foreign DNA under her fingernails using a communal toilet or scratching a playmate.

I know it's a little gross, but when my kids were little, they would hold on to the toilet seat with their fingernails.

If the Ramsey explanation of a sleeping JBR is discounted....And what intruder is going to feed his victim pineapple...She may have walked in the house (as Burke said) and had the pineapple snack with Burke before bed. She may have dressed herself in the too big bloomies (since we know she wanted them, and they were forbidden), and the long johns. If she toileted herself during her nightly routine, the foreign DNA could have been deposited on the underwear and the waistband herself from her own fingernails (and had nothing to do with the crime that occurred later). And we know her fingernails were dirty (wasn't there the suggestion of foreign DNA?).

 

[DeeDee249]

We already know she was awake when she got home, ate the pineapple, and used her toilet. There was evidence that her toilet had been used and not flushed (and sampled from the toilet were taken into custody).

She was known to dislike hand-washing and bathing- PR said exactly that in her depositions. The DNA under her fingernails was too degraded to be of use. And there was NO evidence that her own skin or blood was under her nails, putting and end to the myth that she struggled against the garrote. She was not moving when it was applied and the marks on her neck are petechiae, not fingernail scratches.

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah. Look, the reason the DNA in the Simpson case was so strong is because:

1) There was enough other evidence to show he was there.

2) It was fresh DNA. It was blood and he "happened" to have a cut on his hand.

In this case, we have fragmented DNA that could be from anywhere.

 

[JMO8778]

How many raindrops make a flood?

not enough dna in this case to cause one.

 

[BBB167893]

Not enough against the reservoir on my side!

 

[RiverRat]

For those that are buying what she is selling.....maybe you missed this recent article on the Public Defender is Prosecutor's clothing.....

http://www.timescall.com/News_Story.asp?id=7839

BOULDER — John Christopher Engel was barely 14 in 1999 when he killed his adoptive mother and grandmother in the family’s south Longmont home.

At 16, he pleaded guilty to bludgeoning and stabbing to death Mary Reinschmidt-
Engel, 56, and her mother, Catherine Reinschmidt, 82.

Now 22, he is eligible to have his 32-year sentence reconsidered on April 17. The possibility that Engel could be released to a Boulder halfway house has set emotions boiling.

“If they are wrong, an innocent person could die,” said Steve Reinschmidt, who is Mary’s brother and Catherine’s son.

He said the boy seemed fine two weeks before the bloody attacks, and he is worried that the calm his nephew has displayed while incarcerated could quickly take a dark and explosive turn.

“It was thoroughly planned, thoroughly thought out, and the victims were completely innocent,” Reinschmidt said of the murders.

Reinschmidt said he and his family feel alone in their fight to keep John Engel behind bars because Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy and her staff have joined calls to alter the young man’s sentence to keep him out of prison.

To make the halfway house option a possibility, Lacy appeared in front of the Boulder County Board of Community Corrections on Tuesday morning to ask that it approve halfway house funding for Engel if Boulder District Judge Carol Glowinsky allows him back into the community.

“The time for this decision has come. Believe me, we have struggled very, very hard on this,” Lacy told the board. “We didn’t want to go against what the victims want in this case. ... We are supporting it because it is the right thing to do with this case, with this defendant.”

Reinschmidt said he will return to Boulder next week to detail his family’s worries to the judge in a final effort to prevent Engel’s release.

On Dec. 11, 1999, Engel attacked his adoptive mother and grandmother with a hammer and a knife in the family home on the 2100 block of Indian Peaks Circle. Tom Engel, who was out for a jog when his wife and mother-in-law were killed, overpowered the teen and called police when he returned home.

UPDATE!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008...ed-ferocious-/

"Defense attorneys and prosecutors in Boulder and across the state have been left reeling by the death last weekend of Cary Lacklen, a lawyer who served for more than three decades in the public defender’s office."

"Prosecutors who spent decades battling Lacklen in court praised him on Monday. Prosecutor Pete Maguire called Lacklen “a ferocious advocate.” Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy called him “incredibly honest and hard-working.”

Just this spring, Lacy worked with Lacklen to help move John Engel, a 21-year-old man convicted of killing his adoptive mother and grandmother at age 14, out of prison and into a halfway house.

“He had a lot to do with the system coming together and working for John Engel to help make him a productive member of the community,” Lacy said."

"Lacklen, 57, was found dead on Saturday in his Boulder home. Boulder County Coroner Tom Faure determined the cause of death was suicide."

 

[RiverRat]

Lacy always stands with the victims?! Yeah right.......

"Reinschmidt said he and his family feel alone in their fight to keep John Engel behind bars because Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy and her staff have joined calls to alter the young man’s sentence to keep him out of prison." :furious:

 

[Ames]

UPDATE!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008...ed-ferocious-/

"Defense attorneys and prosecutors in Boulder and across the state have been left reeling by the death last weekend of Cary Lacklen, a lawyer who served for more than three decades in the public defender’s office."

"Prosecutors who spent decades battling Lacklen in court praised him on Monday. Prosecutor Pete Maguire called Lacklen “a ferocious advocate.” Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy called him “incredibly honest and hard-working.”

Just this spring, Lacy worked with Lacklen to help move John Engel, a 21-year-old man convicted of killing his adoptive mother and grandmother at age 14, out of prison and into a halfway house.

“He had a lot to do with the system coming together and working for John Engel to help make him a productive member of the community,” Lacy said."

"Lacklen, 57, was found dead on Saturday in his Boulder home. Boulder County Coroner Tom Faure determined the cause of death was suicide."

Hope that I don't get bashed for saying this...but maybe his suicide was due to feeling guilty about working with Lacy to get a guilty man out of jail.

 

[RiverRat]

I have found more about this man - check my posts at FFJ as I am running late!

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9165&page=4

 

[angelwngs]

Yeah. Look, the reason the DNA in the Simpson case was so strong is because:

1) There was enough other evidence to show he was there.

2) It was fresh DNA. It was blood and he "happened" to have a cut on his hand.

In this case, we have fragmented DNA that could be from anywhere.

Exactly.

 

[angelwngs]

Hope that I don't get bashed for saying this...but maybe his suicide was due to feeling guilty about working with Lacy to get a guilty man out of jail.

Ames, no bashing here. IMO:
“In the magical universe there are no coincidences and there are no accidents. Nothing happens unless someone wills it to happen.”

~William S. Burroughs

http://64.233.167.104/quotes/william_s._burroughs/

 

[angelwngs]

UPDATE!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008...ed-ferocious-/

"Defense attorneys and prosecutors in Boulder and across the state have been left reeling by the death last weekend of Cary Lacklen, a lawyer who served for more than three decades in the public defender’s office."

"Prosecutors who spent decades battling Lacklen in court praised him on Monday. Prosecutor Pete Maguire called Lacklen “a ferocious advocate.” Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy called him “incredibly honest and hard-working.”

Just this spring, Lacy worked with Lacklen to help move John Engel, a 21-year-old man convicted of killing his adoptive mother and grandmother at age 14, out of prison and into a halfway house.

“He had a lot to do with the system coming together and working for John Engel to help make him a productive member of the community,” Lacy said."

"Lacklen, 57, was found dead on Saturday in his Boulder home. Boulder County Coroner Tom Faure determined the cause of death was suicide."

It seems as if the hinges are falling off. There will probably be a lot more flying debris to witness from the sidelines.