The ransom: intended to match JR's bonus?

[Holdontoyourhat]

If they did, I don't know anything about it. The only comments they had were about the odd amount, and that was in a different context.

But I love context, you know that. Lets see it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

No less than a million, flat-out.

No less than a million. OK.

We completely agree, you and I. The ransom amount matched the bonus, the author didn't maximize, and because of this (plus the fact JBR was killed and left there) it seems the ransom note writer never intended to collect.

For RDI this is SOP as the ransom note was a ruse.

For IDI this makes the ransom note a rhetorical statement. The key word that may as well have been included in the ransom note is 'bonus'. In RN-speak, it would've been called a 'fat cat bonus'

The fact that the ransom matched JR's bonus was widely reported (CNN, People, Newsweek, Denver Post, Daily Camera, Rocky Mountain News). Perhaps the RN author knew that it would be widely reported and that it would draw ire.

 

[BBB167893]

But I love context, you know that. Lets see it.

Okay, here you go. At the Quantico meeting with the police, the FBI cited the 118,000 dollar figure in relation to the family's net worth, as a sign of criminal unsophistication.

No less than a million. OK.

We completely agree, you and I. The ransom amount matched the bonus, the author didn't maximize, and because of this (plus the fact JBR was killed and left there) it seems the ransom note writer never intended to collect.

Now we're cookin'!

For RDI this is SOP as the ransom note was a ruse.

For IDI this makes the ransom note a rhetorical statement.

The key word that may as well have been included in the ransom note is 'bonus'. In RN-speak, it would've been called a 'fat cat bonus'

Kind of comes down to the simplest answer of the two, doesn't it?

The fact that the ransom matched JR's bonus was widely reported (CNN, People, Newsweek, Denver Post, Daily Camera, Rocky Mountain News). Perhaps the RN author knew that it would be widely reported and that it would draw ire.

I sincerely doubt that anyone could have predicted how widely known this case would become, HOTYH.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Okay, here you go. At the Quantico meeting with the police, the FBI cited the 118,000 dollar figure in relation to the family's net worth, as a sign of criminal unsophistication.

No mention of JR's bonus??

Now we're cookin'!

You're right. I have to change my whole IDI theory.


Kind of comes down to the simplest answer, doesn't it?

There's nothing simple about RDI.

I sincerely doubt that anyone could have predicted how widely known this case would become, HOTYH.

I'll easily disagree with you on that SD. Big, big mystery. Beauty pageant daughter of multimillionaire businessman found brutally murdered with 3 page ransom note. This IS the stuff headlines are made of. If it happened tomorrow, it would be right up there again.

Besides, I was wondering if I could borrow RDI's 'everything' logic, where everything gets explained by 'how clearly PR was thinking at the time'?

Let me explain: this new intruder is totally angry about something, is angry enough to write a rhetorical ransom note expounding on 'fat cat' bonuses, and kill JR's daughter as an angry outburst at fat cats. The perp's not a pedophile so JBR wasn't victimized like a pedophile. The perp simply wanted it to be known that JBR wasn't just murdered. Meaning that even the assault on JBR was rhetorical. Seeming to note that JR wasn't being singled out, the author threatens other fat cats. Its as if the whole crime was a series of angry exploits to harass and punish not JR but what was seen as a 'fat cat.'

I did a google search on 'fat cat bonuses' and believe me there's some hate going on.

 

[BBB167893]

No mention of JR's bonus??

Actually, they did. Later on at the 2-day presentation, the FBI agents present commented on how unlikely it was that anyone outside of a select few would even know about it. There are a few articles, as well.

You're right. I have to change my whole IDI theory.

I eagerly await what you have to say.

There's nothing simple about RDI.

Wrong, HOTYH. It's VERY simple.

I'll easily disagree with you on that SD. Big, big mystery. Beauty pageant daughter of multimillionaire businessman found brutally murdered with 3 page ransom note. This IS the stuff headlines are made of. If it happened tomorrow, it would be right up there again.

Truth be told, HOTYH, I agree with you, though from a different angle. I have often wondered (quite vocally, really) if JB's death was INTENDED to bring headlines.

Besides, I was wondering if I could borrow RDI's 'everything' logic, where everything gets explained by 'how clearly PR was thinking at the time'?

If I thought for one second that doing so would actually help you understand, I'd say go right ahead and godspeed!

Let me explain: this new intruder is totally angry about something, is angry enough to write a rhetorical ransom note expounding on 'fat cat' bonuses, and kill JR's daughter as an angry outburst at fat cats. The perp's not a pedophile so JBR wasn't victimized like a pedophile. The perp simply wanted it to be known that JBR wasn't just murdered. Meaning that even the assault on JBR was rhetorical. Seeming to note that JR wasn't being singled out, the author threatens other fat cats. Its as if the whole crime was a series of angry exploits to harass and punish not JR but what was seen as a 'fat cat.'

This may surprise you, HOTYH, but in your transparent attempt to MOCK me, you've actually given me an IDI scenario that I can wrap my head around!

I did a google search on 'fat cat bonuses' and believe me there's some hate going on.

I saw that hate in the wake of the Bernie Madoff scandal.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Actually, they did. Later on at the 2-day presentation, the FBI agents present commented on how unlikely it was that anyone outside of a select few would even know about it. There are a few articles, as well.

Was JMK or H or any of the usual suspects inside the 'select few'? Who are the 'select few'?

I eagerly await what you have to say.

OK

Wrong, HOTYH. It's VERY simple.

Superficially simple. RDI has had a series of hard knocks, you gotta admit.

Truth be told, HOTYH, I agree with you, though from a different angle. I have often wondered (quite vocally, really) if JB's death was INTENDED to bring headlines.

JBR's murder didn't make it out of 1997 without becoming front cover material for multiple magazines. CNN was OK with sharing the parents with their viewing audience within what, two weeks?


If I thought for one second that doing so would actually help you understand, I'd say go right ahead and godspeed!

This may surprise you, HOTYH, but in your transparent attempt to MOCK me, you've actually given me an IDI scenario that I can wrap my head around!

Well thats good.

I saw that hate in the wake of the Bernie Madoff scandal.

Here's some more 'rhetorical ransom note' assumptions:

An intruder did it (could be more than one, but for simplicity we'll say one). The intruder is no dummy and has resources exceeding, say, $118,000. This is despite the intruder's disdain for fat cats. Now there's a paradox.

The intruder never expected anything from the ransom note other than to convey an attitude, harass and possibly manipulate JR. Had JR allowed himself to be manipulated in accordance with the ransom note, I have wondered how the crime would've played out, presuming the intruder wasn't interested in the ransom. My guess is that it would've caused more harassment, more humiliation.

 

[BBB167893]

Was JMK or H or any of the usual suspects inside the 'select few'? Who are the 'select few'?

I'm not sure who "H" is, but I would imagine not. I'm kind of surprised you took it that far afield. As for the select few, those would be some of their extended family members, the house staff (basically LHP), some of their close friends (such as the Whites and Fernies), and possibly some of the employees at AG.

OK

No BS, HOTYH. If you feel it strongly enough to revamp your theory, the least I can do is hear you out.

Superficially simple. RDI has had a series of hard knocks, you gotta admit.

Every dog has its day, HOTYH. My turn's coming, I can sense it.

JBR's murder didn't make it out of 1997 without becoming front cover material for multiple magazines. CNN was OK with sharing the parents with their viewing audience within what, two weeks?

That sums it up well. What's your point?

My point was that I think the killer wanted this case to become big news. But that would take a fair amount of explaining.

Well thats good.

Isn't it amazing what you can accomplish.

Here's some more 'rhetorical ransom note' assumptions:

An intruder did it (could be more than one, but for simplicity we'll say one). The intruder is no dummy and has resources exceeding, say, $118,000. This is despite the intruder's disdain for fat cats. Now there's a paradox.

Remember, YOU said it, not me.

The intruder never expected anything from the ransom note other than to convey an attitude, harass and possibly manipulate JR. Had JR allowed himself to be manipulated in accordance with the ransom note, I have wondered how the crime would've played out, presuming the intruder wasn't interested in the ransom. My guess is that it would've caused more harassment, more humiliation.

Interesting line of thought.

 

[Tadpole12]

Gee Hotyh,

are you revamping?
just when I was contemplating the SFF's ability to coordinate survellance on the Ramseys if the Ramseys had not phoned 911.
I thought that JR would be easily spotted at a distance with that breifcase in hand. Where was his bank located?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Gee Hotyh,

are you revamping?
just when I was contemplating the SFF's ability to coordinate survellance on the Ramseys if the Ramseys had not phoned 911.
I thought that JR would be easily spotted at a distance with that breifcase in hand. Where was his bank located?

I'm always revamping. This is a major one, though.

I don't know where the bank is.

If JR had complied with the ransom note, then he would've gone to the bank. He would be sitting at home with the money in a brown paper bag waiting for a phone call. Waiting perhaps until the next day, since they stated they weren't sure if the RN author meant that day or the next day.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I'm not sure who "H" is, but I would imagine not. I'm kind of surprised you took it that far afield. As for the select few, those would be some of their extended family members, the house staff (basically LHP), some of their close friends (such as the Whites and Fernies), and possibly some of the employees at AG.

I would doubt that extended family, house staff, or close friends actually knew anything about JR's bonus. For JR that would be either bragging or shariing personal information. My guess is a mole at AG. (ETA an angry investor? AIDI)

No BS, HOTYH. If you feel it strongly enough to revamp your theory, the least I can do is hear you out.

You're doing a fine job.

Every dog has its day, HOTYH. My turn's coming, I can sense it.

Only IDI has never had a real suspect as a chew toy like RDI.

That sums it up well. What's your point?

My point was that I think the killer wanted this case to become big news. But that would take a fair amount of explaining.

Remember you said the perp didn't know it would be so publicized? I'm claiming he did know. Simple history would tell you that these types of crimes become famous.

Isn't it amazing what you can accomplish.

Not amazed yet.

Remember, YOU said it, not me.

I said there was a paradox. As if RDI has no paradoxes (lol). Besides, its a paradox that was explained previously.


Interesting line of thought.

I'm still figuring the pineapple, 'loose' cord, and 'unsticky' tape. I would like to know what you think as far as how JBR would've been discovered, had 911 not been called. I think its important because that seemed to be the intruder's preference.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I saw that hate in the wake of the Bernie Madoff scandal.

Lets take a look at the hate. Actually, the key word is anger:

Its worth noting that the expressions 'fat cat' and 'executive bonuses' have really soared in popularity in this sucky economy.



http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2246353.ece
PM strikes at fat cat bonuses

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-197687146.html
Article: Virgin's bonuses spark anger.

http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=114125
Merry Christmas Mr Fat Cat - bonuses are back

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...der-showdown-over-fat-cat-bonuses-560382.html
RBS braced for shareholder showdown over fat cat bonuses

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01302009/news/politics/o_sends_angry_meage_152733.htm

O SENDS ANGRY ME$$AGE BLASTS WALL ST. OVER 'SHAMEFUL' FAT-CAT BONUSES

http://dearkitty.blogsome.com/2009/05/24/anger-about-shell-fat-cat-bonuses/

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-13041228.html
Article: Anger at fat cat bonuses for Standard Life bosses

http://beta-www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/nov/20/fat-cat-bonuses/
The public is fed up with corporate fat cats who get outrageous multimillion-dollar bonuses

http://www.ethicsa.org/index.php?page=business_ethics_direct
Issue 720Fat-cat pay remains 'political dynamite'

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,25231146-5014150,00.html
Bonus bosses hit by a bus
IT is hard to underestimate the level of steaming anger over executive bonuses in the US.

-------------------------------------

 

[BBB167893]

I would doubt that extended family, house staff, or close friends actually knew anything about JR's bonus. For JR that would be either bragging or shariing personal information. My guess is a mole at AG. (ETA an angry investor? AIDI)

Well, I said it was possible. And I can understand why JR wouldn't share that information. But what about PR? She didn't strike me as the type to keep family successes secret. As for a mole at AG, the Rs sure didn't have any trouble naming a few possibles, did they?

You're doing a fine job.

I try. I really do.

Only IDI has never had a real suspect as a chew toy like RDI.

Glad to see you have a sense of humor.

Remember you said the perp didn't know it would be so publicized?

I was just playing devil's advocate.

I'm claiming he did know. Simple history would tell you that these types of crimes become famous.

I know. That's why I think what I think, among other reasons.

Not amazed yet.

I simply meant that it's amazing what you can do when you start talking the other person's language.

I said there was a paradox. As if RDI has no paradoxes (lol).

I didn't say that.

Besides, its a paradox that was explained previously.

You'll have to refresh my memory.

I'm still figuring the pineapple, 'loose' cord, and 'unsticky' tape.

Go for it. That's one area where I've got quite a distance on you.

I would like to know what you think as far as how JBR would've been discovered, had 911 not been called. I think its important because that seemed to be the intruder's preference.

I take it you mean if it was an intruder? Okay. Well, and I really hate to be crude about this, but it was only a matter of time before the smell tipped someone off. (I really hated writing that, but there's no way around it.)

Its worth noting that the expressions 'fat cat' and 'executive bonuses' have really soared in popularity in this sucky economy.

I know. I've witnessed it firsthand. Which begs the question: why haven't there been MORE cases like this in the last few months?

 

[Sophie]

Well, I said it was possible. And I can understand why JR wouldn't share that information. But what about PR? She didn't strike me as the type to keep family successes secret. As for a mole at AG, the Rs sure didn't have any trouble naming a few possibles, did they?



I try. I really do.



Glad to see you have a sense of humor.



I was just playing devil's advocate.



I know. That's why I think what I think, among other reasons.



I simply meant that it's amazing what you can do when you start talking the other person's language.



I didn't say that.



You'll have to refresh my memory.



Go for it. That's one area where I've got quite a distance on you.



I take it you mean if it was an intruder? Okay. Well, and I really hate to be crude about this, but it was only a matter of time before the smell tipped someone off. (I really hated writing that, but there's no way around it.)



I know. I've witnessed it firsthand. Which begs the question: why haven't there been MORE cases like this in the last few months?

What a good point, Dave - you'd have expected some 'retaliatory' crimes from people whose homes have been repossessed etc?


I can't find where this point was made, but someone commented that banks normally require notice for large withdrawals. Not only is that true but, in most countries (including, I'm sure, the US) the banks are subject to moneylaundering regulations which mean that large cash withdrawals simply have to be investigated to some extent by the bank. So the RN writer couldn't expect the Ramseys to obtain the money without attracting attention. No way did the RN writer expect the money to be withdrawn. IMO of course.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, I said it was possible. And I can understand why JR wouldn't share that information. But what about PR? She didn't strike me as the type to keep family successes secret. As for a mole at AG, the Rs sure didn't have any trouble naming a few possibles, did they?

I don't know anything about who got named at AG. It seems that a coworker or investor would have inside information as to executive bonus amounts.


You'll have to refresh my memory.

Maybe you weren't here for the 'rich socialist' idea. That is a socialist who is against western capitalist ideologies but has lots of personal wealth. A walking paradox. They do exist.


Go for it. That's one area where I've got quite a distance on you.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

I take it you mean if it was an intruder? Okay. Well, and I really hate to be crude about this, but it was only a matter of time before the smell tipped someone off. (I really hated writing that, but there's no way around it.)

OK thats what I thought I just wanted to get some validation. Thanks. I didn't lead you on, did I? Objection: leading the witness!

I know. I've witnessed it firsthand. Which begs the question: why haven't there been MORE cases like this in the last few months?

The answer may lie in the fact that JR isn't really that fat of a fat cat. I mean, these 'fat cat bonuses' they're angry about are more than JR's bonus. He's just not that high up the fat cat pole. RDI goes on and on about all JR's power and money but he's really not that rich or powerful.

His vulnerability may have been higher. Perhaps seen as an acceptable balance of status and vulnerability, and JBR's beauty pageant photo collection would cause publicity to skyrocket.

The ransom amount could just be part of harassment: the intruder knew this detail and it would drive JR crazy to find out how they knew this.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't know anything about who got named at AG. It seems that a coworker or investor would have inside information as to executive bonus amounts.

Two that I know of: Tom Carson and Jeff Merrick.

Maybe you weren't here for the 'rich socialist' idea. That is a socialist who is against western capitalist ideologies but has lots of personal wealth. A walking paradox. They do exist.

I know. The popular term is "champagne socialist."

Enjoy it while it lasts.

On the contrary, it's my hope that you'll catch up to me one day.

OK thats what I thought I just wanted to get some validation. Thanks. I didn't lead you on, did I? Objection: leading the witness!

Please, no jokes.

The answer may lie in the fact that JR isn't really that fat of a fat cat. I mean, these 'fat cat bonuses' they're angry about are more than JR's bonus. He's just not that high up the fat cat pole.

So why target him in the first place.

RDI goes on and on about all JR's power and money but he's really not that rich or powerful.

Hal Haddon is!

His vulnerability may have been higher. Perhaps seen as an acceptable balance of status and vulnerability, and JBR's beauty pageant photo collection would cause publicity to skyrocket.

The ransom amount could just be part of harassment: the intruder knew this detail and it would drive JR crazy to find out how they knew this.

Hm! Interesting.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Two that I know of: Tom Carson and Jeff Merrick.



I know. The popular term is "champagne socialist."

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander too, I guess. Who doesn't like champagne?

On the contrary, it's my hope that you'll catch up to me one day.

On my way.

Please, no jokes.

Working my way to the more serious stuff.

So why target him in the first place.

Balance of status, vulnerability, publicity? If the murder was a publicity stunt, it was somewhat effective. Remember its not even over. Imagine the publicity when it goes to trial.

Hal Haddon is!

OK great. Do you think he goes around funding guilty people?


Hm! Interesting.

If JR didn't know the RN was rhetorical, and prepared a ransom, then he would be sitting there with high hopes expecting a phone call. Instead, as you correctly noted there is this other predictable set of events, with the effect of dashing his hopes in a dramatic way.

It is possible that it was the original intention of an intruder to produce this effect. I'd call that psychological something or other. What would you call it?

Instead JR called 911 and it was because LE specifically asked JR to look around (after the phone call didn't come?) that JBR was discovered.

 

[BBB167893]

On my way.

Excellent.

Working my way to the more serious stuff.

Glad to hear it.

Balance of status, vulnerability, publicity? If the murder was a publicity stunt, it was somewhat effective.

VERY effective, I'd say.

Remember its not even over. Imagine the publicity when it goes to trial.

WHEN it goes to trial, you say! I ain't holding MY breath! That said, it really WOULD be something, wouldn't it?

OK great. Do you think he goes around funding guilty people?

We'll get to that later.

If JR didn't know the RN was rhetorical, and prepared a ransom, then he would be sitting there with high hopes expecting a phone call. Instead, as you correctly noted there is this other predictable set of events, with the effect of dashing his hopes in a dramatic way.

It would do that, wouldn't it? Of course, if he DID know, that opens up a whole new can of worms, doesn't it?

It is possible that it was the original intention of an intruder to produce this effect. I'd call that psychological something or other. What would you call it?

Mental torture, like a cat toying with a mouse.

Instead JR called 911 and it was because LE specifically asked JR to look around (after the phone call didn't come?) that JBR was discovered.

Which, if he knew, gave him a perfect opportunity to "discover" her and contaminate the scene even more.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Mental torture, like a cat toying with a mouse.

We only needed to cross three bridges to get to mental torture:

1. An intruder did it.
2. The ransom note amount was rhetorical. There was never any intention on the part of the intruder to collect money. JBR could've been moved dead or alive and used to collect the ransom.
3. The ransom note demands were sincerely coercive. A sincere attempt by an intruder to coerce JR into getting money, not calling police, and waiting by the phone. They seemed pretty sincere.

Now that we're talking about mental torture or psychological torment or whatever, it could be used to explain other crime scene phenomenon. Like a wildcard.

 

[Roy23]

All this talk on motives and intentions is really amusing to me. Don't get me wrong, I bite on it and take the bait too. This crime has so many issues that we have to laugh at ourselves when we try and put all the pieces together. Whether RDI or IDI, why leave a wordy ransom note. RDI will explain to create confusion and IDI will explain confusion. We all have to be humble and realize that it is just damm weird and our opponets can pick us apart.

I say this to not criticize any belief. The Ramsey's were a good family with a good history but the investigation has to start with them. I only post this tonight to spread harmony and openmindedness. If that truly is a word. Some people here drive me crazy, but I am glad we can share our differing views and opinions together. I haven't been drinking in case you all were wondering but I just want to share the love today. Tomorrow, I might spread my IDI propaganda.

I wish you all here a wonderful day and justice for Jon Benet Ramsey. May God Bless her soul. :blowkiss:

 

[Roy23]

I just realized why I made that post. The last few days I have seen some RDI's post with a more open mind. It doesn't change their opinion but seeing them think outside the box has inspiring qualities.