The ransom note and staging

[Holdontoyourhat]

I guess it did not bother them that if they "called the police", JonBenet would be beheaded. I guess it did not bother them that if there were any suspicious activity, JonBenet "dies". So they call the police, they call their friends and the Reverand, because they believe she is kidnapped, just that the kidnappers were only kidding when they said they would behead her. Although Patsy was crying her head off about JonBenet being beheaded that morning. But not to worry, the kidnappers did not mean it.

Why don't you tell us how far you'd make it thru the letter before you call the cops?

I'd make it to "We have your daughter...", then I'd call the cops.

Even the cops, after hearing the RN, came over anyway. What about that?

 

[Solace]

Why don't you tell us how far you'd make it thru the letter before you call the cops?

I'd make it to "We have your daughter...", then I'd call the cops.

Even the cops, after hearing the RN, came over anyway. What about that?

Okay, lets assume that that is as far as Patsy read "we have your daughter". Then she ran upstairs and got John and he came running down stairs and laid the note out and started reading and said "call the police", which Patsy did.

Now John is reading, right. And Patsy is on the phone. Do you think John got to the part yet where they said call anyone and we will behead your daughter. So even if they made a mistake and called the police, do you think they might, at that point, think TWICE, about calling their friends.

By the way, I would get a little further than "we have your daughter". Trust me. I would read the note. Because if someone actually had my daughter, I would want to make sure that I get her back alive. The Ramseys knew no one had their daughter, so they do not mind calling anyone. Doesn't matter. She was dead already. And by the way, Patsy sounded pretty much in control to me on that 911 call. A few oh my God's.

 

[UKGuy]

The basement was searched twice (correct me if I'm wrong) before anyone even noticed anything. What kind of 'staged aspects' is that?!? There were no 'staged aspects', JBR was hidden!


An intruder, representing a foreign faction, returning thereto, can't take a dead girl who was reported missing thru the airport terminal. Hello?

Holdontoyourhat,

1.

The basement was searched twice

What does this demonstrate?

2.

JBR was hidden!

What does this demonstrate?

3.

There were no 'staged aspects',

Is this a personal opinion, or can you refer to an external authority?

Statements 1. and 2. do not imply anything about statement 3.

4.

An intruder, representing a foreign faction, returning thereto, can't take a dead girl who was reported missing thru the airport terminal. Hello?

How do you know what route any alleged intruder was intending to take?

5.

Hello?

Have you been on the phone to John Mark Karr?


.

 

[Solace]

Holdontoyourhat,

1.

What does this demonstrate?

2.

What does this demonstrate?

3.

Is this a personal opinion, or can you refer to an external authority?

Statements 1. and 2. do not imply anything about statement 3.

4.

How do you know what route any alleged intruder was intending to take?

5.

Have you been on the phone to John Mark Karr?


.

I like number 5 the best.

 

[Tober]

I agree the RN hid the sexual motivations of the killer

IMO the purpose of the ransom note was to explain JonBenet's dead body and focus attention away from the home. I don't see any attempt by the offender to hide or mask the sexual motivations of the crime, only to account for them, e.g. the neck ligature staging to account for a sexual strangulation; the sexual assault with the paint brush handle to account for a more typical type of sexual assault; the wrist ligature staging to suggest a bondage-type sex scenario to account for an actual sexual abuse scenario. I don't see how the ransom note hid the sexual motivations of the killer, being that the body staging was so overtly sexual.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Why don't you tell us how far you'd make it thru the letter before you call the cops?

I'd make it to "We have your daughter...", then I'd call the cops.

Even the cops, after hearing the RN, came over anyway. What about that?

The cops hadn't heard the RN. They knew about the 911 call. No one had mentioned to them that there were drastic threats on JonBenet's life, because the only person who could have was Patsy during the 911 call, and neither she nor John thought it was important enough to tell the 911 operator about the threats made on JonBenet's life.

I don't know about you, but if I find an RN and my 6 year old missing, you had better believe I'm going to read every single word of the RN before I think about which move to make next. That note is the only link between me and where my child is and how to get her back - I'd probably read it several times through before I decided what to do next.

And I'll guarantee you that once I know the person who claims to have my child is monitoring my house and has threatened to decapitate my child, there is absolutely no way any of my other children would be going anywhere where I couldn't personally watch them. No one can take better care of my children than me.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The cops hadn't heard the RN. They knew about the 911 call. No one had mentioned to them that there were drastic threats on JonBenet's life, because the only person who could have was Patsy during the 911 call, and neither she nor John thought it was important enough to tell the 911 operator about the threats made on JonBenet's life.

I don't know about you, but if I find an RN and my 6 year old missing, you had better believe I'm going to read every single word of the RN before I think about which move to make next. That note is the only link between me and where my child is and how to get her back - I'd probably read it several times through before I decided what to do next.

And I'll guarantee you that once I know the person who claims to have my child is monitoring my house and has threatened to decapitate my child, there is absolutely no way any of my other children would be going anywhere where I couldn't personally watch them. No one can take better care of my children than me.

Welllll, lets just think about this a minute. We're going to listen to, fear, and obey extortionists. Pretty soon we'll all be working for them, at that rate.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

IMO the purpose of the ransom note was to explain JonBenet's dead body and focus attention away from the home. I don't see any attempt by the offender to hide or mask the sexual motivations of the crime, only to account for them, e.g. the neck ligature staging to account for a sexual strangulation; the sexual assault with the paint brush handle to account for a more typical type of sexual assault; the wrist ligature staging to suggest a bondage-type sex scenario to account for an actual sexual abuse scenario. I don't see how the ransom note hid the sexual motivations of the killer, being that the body staging was so overtly sexual.

'the body staging was so overtly sexual'

There was no 'body staging'. JBR was wrapped, taped, and placed in the most remote corner of the house. Thats it. A ransom note was prominently placed that hindered a house search.

JBR was kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and then killed so she could not identify her attacker. The nature of the sexual assault, and the motive behind the assault and murder, are not yet known.

Professing to know the nature and motive of the assault and murder is premature, and amounts to folly at the R's expense.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Statements 1. and 2. do not imply anything about statement 3.



.

This is very mathematical.

1. The basement was searched twice and nothing remarkable reported, because

2. JBR was hidden, so

3. there were no 'staged' aspects.

Instead there were 'covered up' aspects.

Mutually opposed concepts, really.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Welllll, lets just think about this a minute. We're going to listen to, fear, and obey extortionists. Pretty soon we'll all be working for them, at that rate.

Yeah...cause this type of kidnapping happens all the time.

It's not like they said they read the note and then decided to go against the kidnapper's demands because they won't give in to terrorists, they said they didn't even bother to read the whole note before making all those calls. I just don't believe that the CEO of a successful business would find an RN and not even bother to read the whole thing before making decisions that could result in his child's death. I also don't believe the Rs would have sent Burke to go anywhere else witrhout them if they had thought this kidnapping was real.

I mean, come on...my child is missing, there's a ransom note - am I going to read the first line and just the first line before deciding what to do and acting on that decision?

NO.

I'm going to read the entire note and then make a decision based on what I've been told, so that I don't do something stupid, like call 911 without even bothering to find out if that will get my child killed. Then...imagine I'm so confident that I'm top of everything that I go ahead and call over five other people, because there's no need to read the RN through - I have to have support in person immediately, and that's more important than reading the RN and figuring out how to get my daughter back...? Hell NO. That's ridiculous.

If this had been a real kidnapping, and the perp really was monitoring the house, then the Rs calling police without mentioning the dire need for discretion and calling over friends for a get-together would have had JonBenet's head cut off. Their impatience and reckless disregard of the warnings against speaking to anyone would have resulted in their daughter's decapitation.

Is that a better scenario?

Absolutely not.

Lucky for everyone involved that there never was a foreign faction, and this was never a real kidnapping.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Lucky for everyone involved that there never was a foreign faction, and this was never a real kidnapping.

There were and are many foreign factions. Its whether or not the perp was acting on their behalf, in fact "representing" them, during the crime.

Obviously from JBR's point of view, there was a kidnapping. And assault and murder.

 

[Toltec]

You're fictionalizing all by yourself. Patsy didn't write the note, didn't accidentally hit JBR in the head, didn't stage a fake strangulation device with 2nd ligature (which would've been most effective on an adult, BTW), and wasn't mad about anything JBR was doing. You've made it all up.

Whatever.

And this ransom note was "buying time" for this fictional intruder???

Time for WHAT?

 

[UKGuy]

This is very mathematical.

1. The basement was searched twice and nothing remarkable reported, because

2. JBR was hidden, so

3. there were no 'staged' aspects.

Instead there were 'covered up' aspects.

Mutually opposed concepts, really.

Holdontoyourhat,

Mutually opposed concepts, really.

Disregarding the mathematics, this is commonly described as a contradiction.

 

[Solace]

Welllll, lets just think about this a minute. We're going to listen to, fear, and obey extortionists. Pretty soon we'll all be working for them, at that rate.

Holdon. This is not extortion for money. This is extortion for your six year old child, who, in most cases, if not found within 24 hours, will die. Let's try to keep this sane, please.

And since a child is involved, I know, yes Holdon, I know, that no parent would ever invite all these people over. Never. They might ask the police when they got there if they could have a very close friend, but certainly would not have them all driving up as if it were a brunch going on.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdon. This is not extortion for money. This is extortion for your six year old child, who, in most cases, if not found within 24 hours, will die. Let's try to keep this sane, please.

And since a child is involved, I know, yes Holdon, I know, that no parent would ever invite all these people over. Never. They might ask the police when they got there if they could have a very close friend, but certainly would not have them all driving up as if it were a brunch going on.

I'm trying to keep this sane, but its not easy. How do you go from "pay me $118,000 or she dies," to "This is not extortion for money."?!?

A threat of violence if money is not paid is commonly referred to as 'extortion'. Thats what makes it 'extortion'. The perp, in writing, attempted to extort money from JR by threatening his daughter. If he threatened his car or his house it would still be extortion. If he wanted a car instead of cash, it would still be 'extortion'.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

It's not a real kidnapping if the kidnapping victim never leaves the house in order to be held for ransom.

That RN was all a ruse. Not even the Ramseys took it seriously, or else they'd have adhered to the warnings in the note. There was no foreign faction targeting JR, there was no one representing a foreign faction writing that RN, and JonBenet was never kidnapped.

What there is is extensive evidence linking the Ramseys themselves to the crime scene and body and no forensic evidence of any intruder, foreign faction or otherwise, having been in the Ramsey house that night.

Just because the note says it doesn't make it so. The RN said they had JonBenet and there were two gentlemen watching over her, and that wasn't true at all.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Just because the note says it doesn't make it so. The RN said they had JonBenet and there were two gentlemen watching over her, and that wasn't true at all.

"at this time we have your daughter"

You don't even know when 'at this time' was, and you don't really know what happened, so you have no way of knowing what the RN said wasn't so. They could've had JBR at that time referred to in the note.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

If they wanted the money, and this crime was to extort money from JR, why did the person stop and assault and kill her before they even got her out of the house?

A kidnapper has a safe place to take the victim already set up before he even goes to get her, and can take all the time in the world to molest and murder the child once he gets her out of the parents house and into that safe place.

Even if JonBenet ended up dead in the process of kidnapping her, why didn't they take her body? The Rs wouldn't have known she was dead, and if they had, they'd still have paid the ransom to get her body back for burial.

If the kidnapping went wrong and they decided not to take JonBenet with them after all, why even take the risk of leaving the RN behind, knowing it would be evidence? Why not just walk out and disappear with the Rs and the police wondering what the heck happened? It's not for time - LE would have a lot harder time figuring out they need to shut down airports, etc., if they have no idea that there was ever a kidnapping plot and the perp is a foreigner who needs to catch a flight out of town.

 

[Solace]

I'm trying to keep this sane, but its not easy. How do you go from "pay me $118,000 or she dies," to "This is not extortion for money."?!?

A threat of violence if money is not paid is commonly referred to as 'extortion'. Thats what makes it 'extortion'. The perp, in writing, attempted to extort money from JR by threatening his daughter. If he threatened his car or his house it would still be extortion. If he wanted a car instead of cash, it would still be 'extortion'.

This is what transpired a few posts back:

Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
Welllll, lets just think about this a minute. We're going to listen to, fear, and obey extortionists. Pretty soon we'll all be working for them, at that rate.

Holdon. This is not extortion for money. This is extortion for your six year old child, who, in most cases, if not found within 24 hours, will die. Let's try to keep this sane, please. Yes, there is money involved. But your child is gone and you do not know if it is a real kidnapping or a pedofile or what. So YOU WOULD NOT INVITE OVER THE WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD. And this is what we were talking about.

We are not talking about extortion. We are talking about the reality of parents who find their child gone and a ransom note that declares she will be killed if the rules are not followed. The Ramseys followed NO RULES; they invited their friends and the Reverand. They WERE NOT WORRIED ABOUT A BEHEADING OR A DEATH.

That is more than likely because they knew she was already dead.

 

[Toltec]

This is what transpired a few posts back:

Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
Welllll, lets just think about this a minute. We're going to listen to, fear, and obey extortionists. Pretty soon we'll all be working for them, at that rate.

Holdon. This is not extortion for money. This is extortion for your six year old child, who, in most cases, if not found within 24 hours, will die. Let's try to keep this sane, please. Yes, there is money involved. But your child is gone and you do not know if it is a real kidnapping or a pedofile or what. So YOU WOULD NOT INVITE OVER THE WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD. And this is what we were talking about.

We are not talking about extortion. We are talking about the reality of parents who find their child gone and a ransom note that declares she will be killed if the rules are not followed. The Ramseys followed NO RULES; they invited their friends and the Reverand. They WERE NOT WORRIED ABOUT A BEHEADING OR A DEATH.

That is more than likely because they knew she was already dead.

Pedophiles do not want money....they want the child.