The Red Heart

[CloudedTruth]

I was re-reading Patsy's interview from June 23 & 24, 1998 and came across this exchange with Trip DeMuth about the little red heart that had been drawn on JonBenet's hand. I don't know how I had missed this before, but kind of a "wow" moment.

There was first a conversation and questions about showers or baths before going over to the White's for Christmas dinner, and Patsy says that no, JonBenet did not have either. Then there are questions about washing JonBenet's hands, Patsy says she would like to think she washed her hands before going over to the White's but she didn't know if she did or not. DeMuth asks her if anyone had told her to wash her hands before dinner, Patsy responds "I don't know". He then asks her "how was she about washing her hands"? Patsy responds that she was a typical kid, if she could get by with it she wouldn't.

TDM: Had you referred to that at all Christmas day?
PR: I don't know. I don't remember exactly, but I may have.
TDM: How do you know there was a heart on her hand?
PR: Because it was on there in the morning, that's why.
TDM: And you remember it from the next morning?
PR: Uh-hum.
TDM: You saw it the next morning?
PR: Uh-hum.
TDM: When you say the next morning, did you remember it from the previous evening?
PR: (shaking head no)
TDM: Did she...I mean, did it get there, was that something she would do or......
PR: Well, she and Daphne, you know, a lot of times drew on themselves.
TDM: Did you ever see a heart on her hand before?
PR: Not specifically a heart.
TDM: What might you have seen before?
PR: Just markings, you know, just erratic marks maybe, she had been coloring, pen or ink marks, or like fingers from markers or something.

Some other questions and Patsy discusses having conversations about not drawing on herself with regard to the pageant stuff and doing pageant scrubs the night before a pageant appearance. He asks her if she ever drew a smiley face on her or something like that to perk her up if she was feeling down, Patsy says she doesn't remember doing that. He asks her if anyone had a particular liking or habit of drawing hearts, Patsy says she doesn't know. She says she drew suns and things, and birds and things like that.

TDM: What was your reaction when you saw that heart on her hand?
PR: Well I just thought that Daphne must have done it or something, you know, they were playing the night before. You know....you know, my mind ran things out. But Santa Claus made a point the night that he was at our house at the party and was, you know, reading this dialogue that I had written up, and then he told this story about, you know, about how Christmas should be Christmas all the time, all year long, and he said, "and where is Christmas when it's not really Christmas, " something like that. He said particularly JonBenet, and he pointed to JonBenet. And she said in her heart. Pointing. So I mean, you know, I just turned around. I am trying to figure and figure and put things together, but, you know, that.......I am sure you all have too, but......
TDM: You knew her best. That's why we have to ask about her habits.
PR: That was a pretty good little heart you know, I mean....pretty well drawn.

Patsy does not at all seem to be confused as to days and nights. She is aware of when the party on the 23rd was, she is aware of the White's party on the 25th. And she very clearly says she saw the heart on JonBenet's hand that next morning. And confirms that it was morning.

Then on the 24th, she says this to Trip DeMuth: "And I think that I read somewhere talking about the heart on her hand. And truthfully, I can't......I am having trouble distinguishing whether I have read about that or whether I actually saw that. I just recently read parts of the autopsy report and I believe that was on there. And I just, you know, now I have a picture of a heart on her hand and I can't remember whether I actually saw it or....."
TDM: Let me ask you this. So you remember what color it was? Is there a color that you recall?
PR: No, I just see a red heart in my mind.
TDM: But you don't know if you read it?
PR: No. I just to be perfectly fair, to say that I saw it on her.

She went from saying what a good little heart it was, well drawn, to thinking maybe she just read about it.

Thoughts?

 

[cenazoic]

[Patsy Ramsey]: I just recently read parts of the autopsy report…

Not really relevant to your main question, but I just watched a doc from 2019 (“Hunting JonBenet’s Killer” - its basically a sympathetic interview of JR by Elizabeth Vargas).

John specifically says that he’s never read the autopsy report. So I was struck by Patsy’s mention of having done so in your excerpt above, and wonder about the likelihood of she, but not John, reading it. Not that it means anything necessarily, just another .. curiosity in this case.

 

[Ponytale]

I think that it is just a typical reaction/reply that we see many times in the Ramsey interviews. First they say one and then they suddenly are not so sure anymore to changing their initial statements totally. It has happened a numerous times and still keeps happening.
They just blatantly lie about things and that is why I believe that nothing that they have ever said should be taken as a 100% truth, ever.
Do they change their statements, forget about things and lie about things on purpose, as something that they decided that they will do, to create confusion for the authorities to add questions to their investigation and never give certain answers as evidence on statements. Maybe.
Or it just happens and they go along with it. Maybe cause they just do not remember and don't keep track on what they have previously said.

Only thing that matters is what we know as a fact - there was something drawn on her hand, it is confirmed and we can all see it. 6-year-old do scribble on themselves and I believe that is what happened in this case too. IMO

 

[CloudedTruth]

Not really relevant to your main question, but I just watched a doc from 2019 (“Hunting JonBenet’s Killer” - its basically a sympathetic interview of JR by Elizabeth Vargas).

John specifically says that he’s never read the autopsy report. So I was struck by Patsy’s mention of having done so in your excerpt above, and wonder about the likelihood of she, but not John, reading it. Not that it means anything necessarily, just another .. curiosity in this case.

Yes, that struck me too......she always claimed how seeing practically anything about the case would send her into a tailspin and she'd take to her bed for a few days. So it feels off that she would read it.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I think that it is just a typical reaction/reply that we see many times in the Ramsey interviews. First they say one and then they suddenly are not so sure anymore to changing their initial statements totally. It has happened a numerous times and still keeps happening.
They just blatantly lie about things and that is why I believe that nothing that they have ever said should be taken as a 100% truth, ever.
Do they change their statements, forget about things and lie about things on purpose, as something that they decided that they will do, to create confusion for the authorities to add questions to their investigation and never give certain answers as evidence on statements. Maybe.
Or it just happens and they go along with it. Maybe cause they just do not remember and don't keep track on what they have previously said.

Only thing that matters is what we know as a fact - there was something drawn on her hand, it is confirmed and we can all see it. 6-year-old do scribble on themselves and I believe that is what happened in this case too. IMO

It seems to follow a pattern for sure. Patsy was prone to saying things that are revealing. And it feels like she would discuss with John who would then tell her to change her story. Note that she said she saw the heart on that first day of questioning, then changed her story the next day.

What is most telling to me is the way she described it as being "pretty, pretty well drawn". To me that points to knowledge of who drew it. I think it was either JB or Patsy. Otherwise, why would she offer up such a statement?

 

[AddieBoo]

I was re-reading Patsy's interview from June 23 & 24, 1998 and came across this exchange with Trip DeMuth about the little red heart that had been drawn on JonBenet's hand. I don't know how I had missed this before, but kind of a "wow" moment.

There was first a conversation and questions about showers or baths before going over to the White's for Christmas dinner, and Patsy says that no, JonBenet did not have either. Then there are questions about washing JonBenet's hands, Patsy says she would like to think she washed her hands before going over to the White's but she didn't know if she did or not. DeMuth asks her if anyone had told her to wash her hands before dinner, Patsy responds "I don't know". He then asks her "how was she about washing her hands"? Patsy responds that she was a typical kid, if she could get by with it she wouldn't.

TDM: Had you referred to that at all Christmas day?
PR: I don't know. I don't remember exactly, but I may have.
TDM: How do you know there was a heart on her hand?
PR: Because it was on there in the morning, that's why.
TDM: And you remember it from the next morning?
PR: Uh-hum.
TDM: You saw it the next morning?
PR: Uh-hum.
TDM: When you say the next morning, did you remember it from the previous evening?
PR: (shaking head no)
TDM: Did she...I mean, did it get there, was that something she would do or......
PR: Well, she and Daphne, you know, a lot of times drew on themselves.
TDM: Did you ever see a heart on her hand before?
PR: Not specifically a heart.
TDM: What might you have seen before?
PR: Just markings, you know, just erratic marks maybe, she had been coloring, pen or ink marks, or like fingers from markers or something.

Some other questions and Patsy discusses having conversations about not drawing on herself with regard to the pageant stuff and doing pageant scrubs the night before a pageant appearance. He asks her if she ever drew a smiley face on her or something like that to perk her up if she was feeling down, Patsy says she doesn't remember doing that. He asks her if anyone had a particular liking or habit of drawing hearts, Patsy says she doesn't know. She says she drew suns and things, and birds and things like that.

TDM: What was your reaction when you saw that heart on her hand?
PR: Well I just thought that Daphne must have done it or something, you know, they were playing the night before. You know....you know, my mind ran things out. But Santa Claus made a point the night that he was at our house at the party and was, you know, reading this dialogue that I had written up, and then he told this story about, you know, about how Christmas should be Christmas all the time, all year long, and he said, "and where is Christmas when it's not really Christmas, " something like that. He said particularly JonBenet, and he pointed to JonBenet. And she said in her heart. Pointing. So I mean, you know, I just turned around. I am trying to figure and figure and put things together, but, you know, that.......I am sure you all have too, but......
TDM: You knew her best. That's why we have to ask about her habits.
PR: That was a pretty good little heart you know, I mean....pretty well drawn.

Patsy does not at all seem to be confused as to days and nights. She is aware of when the party on the 23rd was, she is aware of the White's party on the 25th. And she very clearly says she saw the heart on JonBenet's hand that next morning. And confirms that it was morning.

Then on the 24th, she says this to Trip DeMuth: "And I think that I read somewhere talking about the heart on her hand. And truthfully, I can't......I am having trouble distinguishing whether I have read about that or whether I actually saw that. I just recently read parts of the autopsy report and I believe that was on there. And I just, you know, now I have a picture of a heart on her hand and I can't remember whether I actually saw it or....."
TDM: Let me ask you this. So you remember what color it was? Is there a color that you recall?
PR: No, I just see a red heart in my mind.
TDM: But you don't know if you read it?
PR: No. I just to be perfectly fair, to say that I saw it on her.

She went from saying what a good little heart it was, well drawn, to thinking maybe she just read about it.

Thoughts?

The kind of response a prosecutor would love to dive into with the witness during trial..and IMO could be a line of questioning that is so psychologically raw, it potentially, could lead to candid, incriminating information.
Definitely a whopper answer!!

IIRC Tripp was DA’s office? This interview is pre GJ?
Did they answer interrogatories prior to their depositions or
did they even do depositions?
If they did the interrogatories would love to read the page those answers are on…
Because Mr. TDM was prepared…

The written transcript is profound IMO, and would be interested to see the tape. How she presented this information….
Like, mentally - where is she when she answering…
Such a simple answer…”oh we always drew hearts on palms ….etc. We drew them that night…”
Easy explanation…but sounds like she got tripped up. TDM was on it for that line of questioning. ON IT!

 

[AddieBoo]

Not really relevant to your main question, but I just watched a doc from 2019 (“Hunting JonBenet’s Killer” - its basically a sympathetic interview of JR by Elizabeth Vargas).

John specifically says that he’s never read the autopsy report. So I was struck by Patsy’s mention of having done so in your excerpt above, and wonder about the likelihood of she, but not John, reading it. Not that it means anything necessarily, just another .. curiosity in this case.

JR may have said he didn’t read the autopsy report, but I guarentee that he knew what was in the report in preparation for any line of questioning. IMO

 

[Ponytale]

What is most telling to me is the way she described it as being "pretty, pretty well drawn". To me that points to knowledge of who drew it. I think it was either JB or Patsy. Otherwise, why would she offer up such a statement?

Yes, it could be. What also came to mind as an option is that maybe JonBenet was practicing drawing hearts recently. Or maybe went to Patsy showing her drawing and asking "Isn't it a pretty heart I drew?" That could also be why Patsy used the words that she did. Seems like a shared memory of some kind... IMO

 

[AddieBoo]

I was re-reading Patsy's interview from June 23 & 24, 1998 and came across this exchange with Trip DeMuth about the little red heart that had been drawn on JonBenet's hand. I don't know how I had missed this before, but kind of a "wow" moment.

There was first a conversation and questions about showers or baths before going over to the White's for Christmas dinner, and Patsy says that no, JonBenet did not have either. Then there are questions about washing JonBenet's hands, Patsy says she would like to think she washed her hands before going over to the White's but she didn't know if she did or not. DeMuth asks her if anyone had told her to wash her hands before dinner, Patsy responds "I don't know". He then asks her "how was she about washing her hands"? Patsy responds that she was a typical kid, if she could get by with it she wouldn't.

TDM: Had you referred to that at all Christmas day?
PR: I don't know. I don't remember exactly, but I may have.
TDM: How do you know there was a heart on her hand?
PR: Because it was on there in the morning, that's why.
TDM: And you remember it from the next morning?
PR: Uh-hum.
TDM: You saw it the next morning?
PR: Uh-hum.
TDM: When you say the next morning, did you remember it from the previous evening?
PR: (shaking head no)
TDM: Did she...I mean, did it get there, was that something she would do or......
PR: Well, she and Daphne, you know, a lot of times drew on themselves.
TDM: Did you ever see a heart on her hand before?
PR: Not specifically a heart.
TDM: What might you have seen before?
PR: Just markings, you know, just erratic marks maybe, she had been coloring, pen or ink marks, or like fingers from markers or something.

Some other questions and Patsy discusses having conversations about not drawing on herself with regard to the pageant stuff and doing pageant scrubs the night before a pageant appearance. He asks her if she ever drew a smiley face on her or something like that to perk her up if she was feeling down, Patsy says she doesn't remember doing that. He asks her if anyone had a particular liking or habit of drawing hearts, Patsy says she doesn't know. She says she drew suns and things, and birds and things like that.

TDM: What was your reaction when you saw that heart on her hand?
PR: Well I just thought that Daphne must have done it or something, you know, they were playing the night before. You know....you know, my mind ran things out. But Santa Claus made a point the night that he was at our house at the party and was, you know, reading this dialogue that I had written up, and then he told this story about, you know, about how Christmas should be Christmas all the time, all year long, and he said, "and where is Christmas when it's not really Christmas, " something like that. He said particularly JonBenet, and he pointed to JonBenet. And she said in her heart. Pointing. So I mean, you know, I just turned around. I am trying to figure and figure and put things together, but, you know, that.......I am sure you all have too, but......
TDM: You knew her best. That's why we have to ask about her habits.
PR: That was a pretty good little heart you know, I mean....pretty well drawn.

Patsy does not at all seem to be confused as to days and nights. She is aware of when the party on the 23rd was, she is aware of the White's party on the 25th. And she very clearly says she saw the heart on JonBenet's hand that next morning. And confirms that it was morning.

Then on the 24th, she says this to Trip DeMuth: "And I think that I read somewhere talking about the heart on her hand. And truthfully, I can't......I am having trouble distinguishing whether I have read about that or whether I actually saw that. I just recently read parts of the autopsy report and I believe that was on there. And I just, you know, now I have a picture of a heart on her hand and I can't remember whether I actually saw it or....."
TDM: Let me ask you this. So you remember what color it was? Is there a color that you recall?
PR: No, I just see a red heart in my mind.
TDM: But you don't know if you read it?
PR: No. I just to be perfectly fair, to say that I saw it on her.

She went from saying what a good little heart it was, well drawn, to thinking maybe she just read about it.

Yes, it could be. What also came to mind as an option is that maybe JonBenet was practicing drawing hearts recently. Or maybe went to Patsy showing her drawing and asking "Isn't it a pretty heart I drew?" That could also be why Patsy used the words that she did. Seems like a shared memory of some kind...

Yes, it could be. What also came to mind as an option is that maybe JonBenet was practicing drawing hearts recently. Or maybe went to Patsy showing her drawing and asking "Isn't it a pretty heart I drew?" That could also be why Patsy used the words that she did. Seems like a shared memory of some kind... IMO

IIRC… PR was known for drawing hearts on JB palm? Seems like I heard/read that somewhere???

Anyway..it sounds like TDM was leading PR into the past and would be very interested to see/hear where she was mentally.

 

[CloudedTruth]

IIRC… PR was known for drawing hearts on JB palm? Seems like I heard/read that somewhere???

Anyway..it sounds like TDM was leading PR into the past and would be very interested to see/hear where she was mentally.

I heard that too.....that Patsy was known to draw hearts on JB. It sure seems like something she would do, but I can't recall where I heard that and if there is any resource to confirm it.

 

[AddieBoo]

I heard that too.....that Patsy was known to draw hearts on JB. It sure seems like something she would do, but I can't recall where I heard that and if there is any resource to confirm it.

Maybe TDM heard that too…

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Not really relevant to your main question, but I just watched a doc from 2019 (“Hunting JonBenet’s Killer” - its basically a sympathetic interview of JR by Elizabeth Vargas).

John specifically says that he’s never read the autopsy report. So I was struck by Patsy’s mention of having done so in your excerpt above, and wonder about the likelihood of she, but not John, reading it. Not that it means anything necessarily, just another .. curiosity in this case.

The only way they can get him on their shows is to pander to his narrative.
If anyone else has a show that doesn't, we'll, they get sued.
Funny how that works.

 

[ipse425]

The first part of your statement doesn't 100% follow from the second. MOO
Even if DNA of 2 adult males was found on JBR, she could still have drawn the heart herself. Or her little friend might have drawn it for her.


Do you have a source for this? It's hard to keep track of all the information. I'd like to read it in the context it was written in too.
Thanks.

source:

Amazon.ca

 

[CloudedTruth]

source:

Amazon.ca

Not a surprise a different story is told in their book.....

 

[james01]

That does sound like something that would fit with Patsy's affectionate nature, but I totally get wanting to find a solid source to confirm it. Sometimes details like that get passed around in discussions, and it’s hard to pin down where they originated. Maybe checking old interviews, books, or case files could help? If I come across anything, I’ll let you know!

 

[GRT]

I was re-reading Patsy's interview from June 23 & 24, 1998 and came across this exchange with Trip DeMuth about the little red heart that had been drawn on JonBenet's hand. I don't know how I had missed this before, but kind of a "wow" moment.

There was first a conversation and questions about showers or baths before going over to the White's for Christmas dinner, and Patsy says that no, JonBenet did not have either. Then there are questions about washing JonBenet's hands, Patsy says she would like to think she washed her hands before going over to the White's but she didn't know if she did or not. DeMuth asks her if anyone had told her to wash her hands before dinner, Patsy responds "I don't know". He then asks her "how was she about washing her hands"? Patsy responds that she was a typical kid, if she could get by with it she wouldn't.

TDM: Had you referred to that at all Christmas day?
PR: I don't know. I don't remember exactly, but I may have.
TDM: How do you know there was a heart on her hand?
PR: Because it was on there in the morning, that's why.
TDM: And you remember it from the next morning?
PR: Uh-hum.
TDM: You saw it the next morning?
PR: Uh-hum.
TDM: When you say the next morning, did you remember it from the previous evening?
PR: (shaking head no)
TDM: Did she...I mean, did it get there, was that something she would do or......
PR: Well, she and Daphne, you know, a lot of times drew on themselves.
TDM: Did you ever see a heart on her hand before?
PR: Not specifically a heart.
TDM: What might you have seen before?
PR: Just markings, you know, just erratic marks maybe, she had been coloring, pen or ink marks, or like fingers from markers or something.

Some other questions and Patsy discusses having conversations about not drawing on herself with regard to the pageant stuff and doing pageant scrubs the night before a pageant appearance. He asks her if she ever drew a smiley face on her or something like that to perk her up if she was feeling down, Patsy says she doesn't remember doing that. He asks her if anyone had a particular liking or habit of drawing hearts, Patsy says she doesn't know. She says she drew suns and things, and birds and things like that.

TDM: What was your reaction when you saw that heart on her hand?
PR: Well I just thought that Daphne must have done it or something, you know, they were playing the night before. You know....you know, my mind ran things out. But Santa Claus made a point the night that he was at our house at the party and was, you know, reading this dialogue that I had written up, and then he told this story about, you know, about how Christmas should be Christmas all the time, all year long, and he said, "and where is Christmas when it's not really Christmas, " something like that. He said particularly JonBenet, and he pointed to JonBenet. And she said in her heart. Pointing. So I mean, you know, I just turned around. I am trying to figure and figure and put things together, but, you know, that.......I am sure you all have too, but......
TDM: You knew her best. That's why we have to ask about her habits.
PR: That was a pretty good little heart you know, I mean....pretty well drawn.

Patsy does not at all seem to be confused as to days and nights. She is aware of when the party on the 23rd was, she is aware of the White's party on the 25th. And she very clearly says she saw the heart on JonBenet's hand that next morning. And confirms that it was morning.

Then on the 24th, she says this to Trip DeMuth: "And I think that I read somewhere talking about the heart on her hand. And truthfully, I can't......I am having trouble distinguishing whether I have read about that or whether I actually saw that. I just recently read parts of the autopsy report and I believe that was on there. And I just, you know, now I have a picture of a heart on her hand and I can't remember whether I actually saw it or....."
TDM: Let me ask you this. So you remember what color it was? Is there a color that you recall?
PR: No, I just see a red heart in my mind.
TDM: But you don't know if you read it?
PR: No. I just to be perfectly fair, to say that I saw it on her.

She went from saying what a good little heart it was, well drawn, to thinking maybe she just read about it.

Thoughts?

PR was heavily medicated.

That, along with the incredible grief and trauma, probably explains insignificant discrepancies in her memories.

 

[CloudedTruth]

PR was heavily medicated.

That, along with the incredible grief and trauma, probably explains insignificant discrepancies in her memories.

She was not still heavily medicated at this point. These interviews took place in late June of 1998.

On June 23 she was very confident about her answer, and that she saw the red heart on JB's hand. She even goes so far as to say how "well drawn" it was. Changes her story the very next day.

 

[GRT]

She was not still heavily medicated at this point. These interviews took place in late June of 1998.

On June 23 she was very confident about her answer, and that she saw the red heart on JB's hand. She even goes so far as to say how "well drawn" it was. Changes her story the very next day.

I don't think she sounded very confident about the heart either day. On the 23rd, she couldn't remember if it was on her hand or her forehead. She thought hand, but wasn't sure.

The next day, she admitted she had the image of a heart in her mind but wasn't sure whether she actually saw it on JBR or had read about it and then imagined it.

Given that many studies have indicated that memories DO change based on input someone receives after an event, I don't see any smoking gun here, especially because she indicated on the 23rd that she wasn't sure.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I don't think she sounded very confident about the heart either day. On the 23rd, she couldn't remember if it was on her hand or her forehead. She thought hand, but wasn't sure.

The next day, she admitted she had the image of a heart in her mind but wasn't sure whether she actually saw it on JBR or had read about it and then imagined it.

Given that many studies have indicated that memories DO change based on input someone receives after an event, I don't see any smoking gun here, especially because she indicated on the 23rd that she wasn't sure.

TDM: How do you know there was a heart on her hand?
PR: Because it was on there in the morning, that's why.
TDM: And you remember it from the next morning?
PR: Uh-hum.
TDM: You saw it the next morning?
PR: Uh-hum.
TDM: When you say the next morning, did you remember it from the previous evening?
PR: (shaking head no)

This all sounds quite confident to me. None of her usual, "I don't remember" or "I can't recall". That didn't happen until the next day. Here comment, "because it was on there in the morning, that's why" not only sounds definitive, but has a certain amount of defiance to it.....like, "how dare you question my memory of this". She specifically remembers that it was the next morning and not the night before.

 

[sgrump]

The red heart also looks like a capital B.