The Rest of the Story...

Great article from USA Today


What gives me pause

What is clear, however, is that there is no objective justification for brushing off the mothers as a bunch of prairie-style Stepford wives, let alone for leaping to the conclusion that mounting an armed raid to take their children away was indeed proper to do on the strength of a metaphor grounded in a religious stereotype.

The feminist in me cringes at rising to the defense of a group so patently patriarchal as FLDS. But it isn't much of a stretch to defend the religious rights of groups with whom one mostly agrees, is it? I, personally, find the kind of spirituality practiced on the YFZ Ranch deeply troubling. I find the pop-romanticization of polygamy in HBO's Big Love equally problematic.

But, both as a feminist and as a scholar of religion, I also recognize that we as a society can applaud the YFZ raid and its potentially dire consequences for hundreds of women and their children, only if we blind ourselves to some other salient facts:


* Across the USA and across class, race, ethnic and religious divides, adolescent girls are becoming more sexually active, at ever-earlier ages. A recently released government study found that one in four teenage girls in this country has a sexually transmitted infection.


* Monogamy may be our societal "ideal," but given the American divorce rate, "serial polygamy" is closer to the norm — often culminating in precisely the pattern practiced by FLDS, whereby the older a man gets, the younger his newest wife is, the pattern originally advocated by Joseph Smith.


* Historians acknowledge a pragmatic link between the revelation that led the Mormon Church to renounce polygamy, and Utah statehood. On this ground, in religious terms, FLDS members are as legitimate in claiming to be "true" followers of Joseph Smith as are, say, those traditionalist Catholics who reject the authority of the post-Vatican II Roman Catholic Church.


* Gay marriage advocates have long pointed to parallels between anti-gay marriage and anti-polygamy laws: Both offer privileges to heterosexual monogamy.


* Meanwhile, polygamy and/or adolescent sexual intercourse are socially and religiously sanctioned in a variety of cultural contexts around the world, for example, in some Islamic communities, among the Maasai of Africa and in Papua New Guinea.

Maybe, rather than focusing on the family arrangements of an isolated Texas religious sect, we should be asking ourselves what was wrong with this picture: Even as CPS was herding the last of the FLDS girls off to distant foster care facilities late last month, American Internet users were so eager to see Annie Liebovitz's revealing Vanity Fair photos of 15-year-old Miley Cyrus that the magazine's website crashed.

Mary Zeiss Stange is a professor of Women's Studies and Religion at Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., and a member of USA TODAY's board of contributors.
 
Glow, I'm sorry you and Truly apparently have a problem.

I don't know why you don't think there would be an outcry if a thread was specifically started outlining the problems and abuses. People do care and that is why emotions run so high on this and other issues.
 
Glow, I'm sorry you and Truly apparently have a problem.

I don't know why you don't think there would be an outcry if a thread was specifically started outlining the problems and abuses. People do care and that is why emotions run so high on this and other issues.


Well I can only speak for myself, but I have no problems. Everything is fine by me.

As for why I dont think there would be an outcry..............the problem exists and there isnt even a thread about it. No one has or will be starting one.

Which just lends weight to the idea that this whole story (the FLDS) is about a lot more than just the suspected abuse of underaged teens.
 
Marleigh Meisner, a Texas Department of Family and Protective Services spokeswoman, said the classes will begin to be scheduled within the next 10 days. They will be standard parenting classes consisting of two four-hour sessions.
"The curriculum will be much like those that the agency uses with other clients," Meisner said in a statement. "The instructors will be trained on how to best deliver this information to these FLDS parents."
Tom Green County Judge Barbara Walther ordered the classes for FLDS parents as a condition of allowing the 440 children taken from the polygamous sect's west Texas ranch to be returned to their families last month.
The children were taken from the ranch early in April based on allegations of physical and sexual abuse.
But two higher Texas courts found in May that Walther lacked sufficient evidence to keep all the children in foster care.
During hearings before those rulings, Child Protective Service workers had said that one aim of the parenting classes would be to educate FLDS parents about Texas laws regarding marriage, bigamy and other legal issues.

So which is it?



A grand jury considering evidence against the sect is scheduled to meet again in Schleicher County on July 22. It met in June without issuing any indictments.
Attorneys for FLDS parents have said their clients have been wanting to begin work on the directions Walther gave to them.
"These people want to do what they need to do and move on with their lives," said Julie Balovich, an attorney with Texas RioGrande Legal Aid who represents two FLDS mothers.

Attorneys say that some clients who have been interviewed by CPS have been told the state expects to close some cases in coming weeks.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9778881

That will be a good thing. It will be one way to tell who never should have been caught up in the "net" in the first place.
 


Thanks for the link SewingDeb.

It is ironic that this thread on the Amish that you linked me to was started during the height of the FLDS saga. If ever there was a time for people to want to connect the dots - the timing would have been perfect.

Instead, then Amish thread got only a meager 42 posts and died out.

The FLDS got a whole forum and thousands of posts. People were ENRAGED on those early threads - dont you remember?


Nothing was too small to pick on - true or untrue - didn't matter. Even something as little as the media reporting that they didn't know what crayons were........that generated comment after comment.....SO silly.

And after that was proven to not be true? Dead silence.

I could respect an individual who loudly decried what they thought was a wrongdoing as long as they were equally loud when they found out they were wrong, or misinformed.

That has been peculiar to this case though - people were all lined up for the "tar and feather" and deafeningly quiet when all the rumors and charges evaporated.
 
I think that the way the FLDS thumbs their nose at the laws of this land is what infuriates people. Religion should not trump law.
 
ok, but what laws specifically do you mean? The laws on polygamy or the underaged marriage - or both?
 
Both and welfare fraud in the other states.
 
Agreed Deb. No religion should be above the law of the land. NONE! There are very valid reasons for laws against polygamy, underage marriage, welfare abuse, tax abuse, etc. But the FLDS chooses to ignore these laws and write their own code of conduct. They take what they can from the government if it suits their purpose, and ignore the rules, all the while screaming "religious persecution."
 
Both and welfare fraud in the other states.

I am totally against the welfare fraud - as I think pretty much everybody is.

As far as the underaged marriages they have issued a statement that they will follow the laws of the land, so we will see if that is true. If it is, that is over as a concern.

That leaves the polygamy....from what I have gathered, most people dont seem to have a problem with that as long as the family can be self supporting and the wives are of age.

Is that your take on it?
 
I am totally against the welfare fraud - as I think pretty much everybody is.

As far as the underaged marriages they have issued a statement that they will follow the laws of the land, so we will see if that is true. If it is, that is over as a concern.

That leaves the polygamy....from what I have gathered, most people dont seem to have a problem with that as long as the family can be self supporting and the wives are of age.

Is that your take on it?

I dont agree with Polygamy for many reasons. As far as following the laws of the land when it comes to the underage marriages.....I dont think that will change much as they will just marry them as soon as they are "legal" but they will still be too young...they will still have to marry men old enough to be their fathers and produce a zillion kids. They still dont have real choices so I still have a problem with these people. It angers me that its all about the MEN.
 
I dont agree with Polygamy for many reasons. As far as following the laws of the land when it comes to the underage marriages.....I dont think that will change much as they will just marry them as soon as they are "legal" but they will still be too young...they will still have to marry men old enough to be their fathers and produce a zillion kids. They still dont have real choices so I still have a problem with these people. It angers me that its all about the MEN.

Polygamy wouldnt work for me either on a personal level. However I dont feel that I can tell someone else they cant practice it unless we deny that right to every form of "marriage" that involves anything other than one man and one woman.

Then what about gay couples?
 
Polygamy wouldnt work for me either on a personal level. However I dont feel that I can tell someone else they cant practice it unless we deny that right to every form of "marriage" that involves anything other than one man and one woman.

Then what about gay couples?

I am of the mindset that marriage should stay between one man and one woman. I do not agree with Gay marriage no more than I do Polygamy.
My problem with the FLDS is that its all about MANpower and as a woman that offends me. I doubt that they would be so accepting if all the women decided they wanted half a dozen husbands each:rolleyes:
 
I am of the mindset that marriage should stay between one man and one woman. I do not agree with Gay marriage no more than I do Polygamy.
That seems fair enought to me.

My problem with the FLDS is that its all about MANpower and as a woman that offends me. I doubt that they would be so accepting if all the women decided they wanted half a dozen husbands each.


In any social structure there is always going to be a chain of command. That creates order and efficiency. These particular people believe what the Bible says in a fundamental/literal way. That would make the chain of command God - Christ - Man - Woman.

That appears at first glance to be VERY oppressive. Especially to post feminist American women AND women who have experienced any kind of abuse of male power.

Its that abuse of male power that creates the "wrongness" I think, rather than just simply the man having the power. Every single parent mom I know wants to find a mate that will take some of the load off her shoulders as far as having to handle everything herself.

When I was younger, I was a rather militant feminist. I can see that now looking back even though I didnt recognize it so much at the time. As I've gotten older I've grown less impressed with the feminist mind set and more saddened to see the fruitage that has come with it. Broken families are the norm rather than the exception. Women got freed of their apron strings only to find that they have to go work in a dog eat dog world and THEN come home and put the apron back on and cook dinner. With the total "letting go" of some of the more traditional values we are reaping a bumper crop of kids who seem unsure of their role in the family and their role in society. It is a very interesting thing to watch and I wonder where it will all end up.
 
I'm not big into feminism either Glow, I think it can go too far the "other" way but I just have a problem with the "structure" amongst many other things within the FLDS. I think for the women and children it may be about following the Bible but for the men I think its less to do with that.
I just want to say aswell that although I disagree with alot of your views on this thread I really appreciate alot of the links that you put up as I have enjoyed reading many of them so Thankyou for that:blowkiss:
 
I am totally against the welfare fraud - as I think pretty much everybody is.

As far as the underaged marriages they have issued a statement that they will follow the laws of the land, so we will see if that is true. If it is, that is over as a concern.

That leaves the polygamy....from what I have gathered, most people dont seem to have a problem with that as long as the family can be self supporting and the wives are of age.

Is that your take on it?

Pretty much. Polygamy is still illegal. Unless that law is overturned, they will still be breaking the laws of this land. They need to move to a country that has laws more in line with their beliefs. Especially if they don't want outside interference. JMHO.
 

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