The Rest of the Story...
- Thread starter Glow
- Start date
Good! And they will win this lawsuit.
I know I saw it reported on FOXNEWS, or somewhere that they took in millions of dollars in public assistance.
Montana
Member
Hi Glow. Thank you for your response. This is such a multifaceted problem I don't even know where to begin. They really do need alot of help. I think that the state should ensure that all of the children have a proper education. They should not be allowed to violate labor laws by having young boys working long hours for no pay. I think that there should be laws in place that prevent the church from stepping all over church members rights such as not allowing the church to confiscate people's property and throw them out on the streets for breaking rules. They need to be required to file proper paperwork like birth and death certificates. They need to prosecute all men who marry underage girls. Parents need to be taught what child and spousal abuse is. Parents should be charged with abandonment for allowing their young sons to be thrown out of the church with nothing. They accept these conditions as normal. The taboo of not reporting offenders needs to be changed. Women who decide they want to leave need support and protection. The women need to be taught not to turn over all of their income to their spouses. They really do need enpowerment courses. They need to learn about proper nutrition. There are so many children in some families that they don't get enough to eat. They rarely get any meat. They eat things like canned peaches and bread for dinner and that's all! In short, the state needs to work with and monitor the FLDS members so that these children have at least a shot at living a normal, healthy, happy, abuse-free life.
Regards,
Montana
Montana
Member
Thank you Sewing Deb. As you can see, I feel very passion about this situation. If adults want to suffer that is fine. I cannot tolerate children being mistreated.
Regards,
Montana
Glow,
Thank you so much for this thread. I am truly amazed at reading some of these links. I don't even have words to express everything I am thinking. It hurts my head! As you know, I was vocal about my concerns with this raid when it happened. I thought it was wrong and terrifying from the beginning, but it was difficult to find a lot of truth. The propoganda was enormous. Now, it seems that what was happening with CPS/Texas was even worse than I had suspected at the time.
I don't necessarily have a lot to add to the discussion. I do understand that people get very upset at the thought of children being abused. I do too. But this felt like a witchhunt from the beginning - no integrity at all from the people with unbelievable power. That is horrifying. I continue to be so grateful for the Courts who bought a much quicker "end" to all of this than I would have imagined possible.
Thank you so much for this thread. I am truly amazed at reading some of these links. I don't even have words to express everything I am thinking. It hurts my head! As you know, I was vocal about my concerns with this raid when it happened. I thought it was wrong and terrifying from the beginning, but it was difficult to find a lot of truth. The propoganda was enormous. Now, it seems that what was happening with CPS/Texas was even worse than I had suspected at the time.
I don't necessarily have a lot to add to the discussion. I do understand that people get very upset at the thought of children being abused. I do too. But this felt like a witchhunt from the beginning - no integrity at all from the people with unbelievable power. That is horrifying. I continue to be so grateful for the Courts who bought a much quicker "end" to all of this than I would have imagined possible.
I have no idea why you are getting that impression. It isnt coming from me. The state could be any state, ________________ fill in the blank. What is going on is the problem not what state it happens to be occurring in.
It appears that you're slamming the point home with a 20 lb. sledgehammer.
BY jove that's it! I'm using to light of a sledge hammer!
As to this idea, what would you have me do? Have you read what some people believe? Things that have been proven to be rumors and innuendo? And yet people cling to them even though the facts show them to be fallacy. Why is that? Why would people want to believe the worst of another if they dont have to? Isnt what actually IS bad about the FLDS enough, without making stuff up? They have been accused of everything under the sun. Dr lawyers policemen, mental health care workers, you name it have given us a pretty accurate template for who these people really are and what they really believe and do and yet the propaganda continues. What would you have me do? Just set back and fold my hands? Where is the morality in that exactly? Where these people have done wrong I have said they were wrong. I havent defended wrong doing. Where they have been erroneously accused I have said that too. Its called being balanced. Its called being fair.
If you think I am driving things home to the point of redundancy I can only say this to cheer you up....
number one, if you and your family, or your religion was being treated this unjustly, I would stand up just as much for you.
number two, In all the things I have said, in all the words I have written, in all the newspaper reports and eyewitness accounts that I have posted links to..... I havent made one dent in the mad rush to judgement that this case has elicited. My "sledge hammer" has had no more effect on the truth of what has really happened here getting recognized, then a drop of water would have on a raging fire. Me and my "sledge hammer" are not making any headway at all. This is a losing battle. Maybe you can find comfort in that.
Well there is a reason why the Supreme Courts are made up of whom they are. Whether it is a state Supreme Court or the US Supreme Court, they usually have thought clarity in spite of all the accompanying clutter. Especially when it surrounds religion. Or children. This case has both. Lower courts seem much more susceptible to emotion in that regard.
This case reminds me of a pie. It has many slices or components. There is the underage spiritual marriage thing. That one slice of the pie has been seized up and ran with to the exclusion of all the other slices.
The Governors office knew EXACTLY what they were doing when they decided to slant what the mainstream media reported. I guess it did not occur to anyone that the business emails of the Governors office are public domain OR that some intrepid reporter would ferret them out and plaster them all over the Internet!
Maybe they did know and just didn't think it would matter. From the way CPS treated the mental health care workers they invited in to help it seems obvious that there was a certain "invincibility" in their mind set.
Who was it that said power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely?
I cant remember who that was....but they were right!
The final straw now will be if the FLDS can prove from an outside source what they are saying....
that LE knew Sarah wasn't in Texas BEFORE they raided and they did it anyhow. If that can be proven, well that's it for this whole case.
I am not so sure that it is a losing battle. Very many important people feel the same way that you do. Honest journalists, attorneys, are, and will pursue this. I like to think that in the end, things will be righted.I have no idea why you are getting that impression. It isnt coming from me. The state could be any state, ________________ fill in the blank. What is going on is the problem not what state it happens to be occurring in.
BY jove that's it! I'm using to light of a sledge hammer!
As to this idea, what would you have me do? Have you read what some people believe? Things that have been proven to be rumors and innuendo? And yet people cling to them even though the facts show them to be fallacy. Why is that? Why would people want to believe the worst of another if they dont have to? Isnt what actually IS bad about the FLDS enough, without making stuff up? They have been accused of everything under the sun. Dr lawyers policemen, mental health care workers, you name it have given us a pretty accurate template for who these people really are and what they really believe and do and yet the propaganda continues. What would you have me do? Just set back and fold my hands? Where is the morality in that exactly? Where these people have done wrong I have said they were wrong. I havent defended wrong doing. Where they have been erroneously accused I have said that too. Its called being balanced. Its called being fair.
If you think I am driving things home to the point of redundancy I can only say this to cheer you up....
number one, if you and your family, or your religion was being treated this unjustly, I would stand up just as much for you.
number two, In all the things I have said, in all the words I have written, in all the newspaper reports and eyewitness accounts that I have posted links to..... I havent made one dent in the mad rush to judgement that this case has elicited. My "sledge hammer" has had no more effect on the truth of what has really happened here getting recognized, then a drop of water would have on a raging fire. Me and my "sledge hammer" are not making any headway at all. This is a losing battle. Maybe you can find comfort in that.
Thank you for saying that PSUfan. I hope you are right. I like the way you think!
Montana
Member
I was afraid to even use that in my post....the Catholic thing that is...........I have many Catholic friends and I didint want to be seen as picking on that one faith. Thank you for not taking it that way!
As far as living behind a walled compound goes, looks like those days are over at least for now. From what I am reading most of the families are staying in rented apartments in towns and cities. The fathers are keeping a distance, the mothers have been forced to go to work. So the kids are basically without their familiar home, their friends and extended family members, and have little time with their moms, since they are working now. They dont get to run and play outside. They dont have fresh garden food and they dont have their school. But no one is behind a wall. There are in a different situation. I guess time will tell if it is a "better" one.
With all due respect, there is nothing wrong with not living in a walled compound when the environment is oppressive and degrading. At lease now they know that outsiders are not evil and can be caring and loving. Most women work in our society. Again, nothing wrong with that. The children should be away from fathers who are taught to not be response to their needs and not respect their mothers. Children who are not being properly cared for should be removed from a harmful environment. If they are permitted to go to school at all, their schools suck. They shelter them from the truth so that they cannot make informed decisions on their own. Yes, it is sad that they are being removed from the only life they have ever known. I am sure they are scared. But is it better for them in the long run? Yes, of course it is.
I noticed that you made a point of the fact that some of the women are educated. This is true, but most are not allowed to pursue an education. It is frowned upon. Exposure to the real world contaminates the FLDS. Educated people might actually get a clue.
Peace,
Montana
They know just the opposite in fact. These children were awakened and interrogated in the middle of the night. The adults around them were distressed and anxious. They were removed from their home and had to bathe in a bucket and eat crappy food. Then they were separated from their mothers while they tried to appeal to the policemen who were there for help...to the point that it made the policemen break down in tears.
It is true that once the children got away from direct CPS contact and into the top rate group foster care setting they made some friends. The initial contact at the time of the raid and the ensuing days after, caused a great deal of trauma and emotional distress. To the point that CPS has even said that they will, in some cases need counseling.
Actually, while in foster care they were tested and found to be at or above grade level as per the public school curriculum requirements. From what limited information is available.
It would be interesting to see how many of the FLDS women have degrees or professions aside from just "jobs" and then compare that to women in mainstream society who have degrees and professions instead of just "jobs". I think that you are right the FLDS women lag behind in that statistic. I am not sure that is necessarily a bad thing in the long term big picture however. Just to mention one statistic, before the industrial age in America most women were at home. That changed with Rosie the Riveter and other campaigns that brought women into the factories to fill jobs while men were at war. The feminist movement carried things a step furthur by breaking down some glass ceilings and securing job positions for women formerly only held by men. While that all looks good on the surface, womens rate of heart disease and gastro intestinal disease (formerly predominately "male" diseases) has climbed in direct correlation. Some experts feel that women havent benefited at all in just that one area (health)
not sure what you mean here.
I enjoy your thoughts Montana, peace to you too
Judge Martha Tanner of the 166th District Court granted Lori and Joseph Jessop Sr. a temporary restraining order against the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, along with the temporary custody they had already gained of their three children.
“I am not going to allow CPS or any other agency to interfere with parents in this state,” the judge said.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA061008.1B.FLDShearing.3899a1c.html
“I am not going to allow CPS or any other agency to interfere with parents in this state,” the judge said.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA061008.1B.FLDShearing.3899a1c.html
This is a wonderful and heart warming story of what can happen when people are kind and embrace the differences of others. Note what this Baptist organization did-
( Italics are my thoughts)
"Children seized from a polygamist sect’s compound and temporarily entrusted to a Texas Baptist child-care agency bid farewell to their former caretakers May 31 with poetry, song and strong emotion. A poem, written on a large piece of poster board and decorated with hand-drawn flowers began:
“Just a brief note, but sincere from the heart/We wanted to tell you, at least a small part/How much we appreciate your efforts at “boot camp”/To put up with and care for this motherless bunch.” The poem’s conclusion read:
”So we’ll just close this little rhyme and say with great zest/’Thank You’ to everyone wearing the name/‘BCFS!’”
In-between, the children mentioned many of the organization’s workers by name and thanked them for specific actions. The children also gave out individual notes and performed songs they had composed for the occasion."
Why did the children feel this way?
"BCFS President Kevin Dinnin said the agency received “literally hundreds” of registered letters from FLDS parents back at the sect’s Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado, Texas. The letters contained requests on how they wanted the care for their children structured -- regarding everything from medications to education. “We complied with all of those requests, except one -- that FLDS elders be allowed to conduct religious services,” he said. Dinnin noted that the request was denied not by BCFS officials, but by state authorities.
“Basically, we said child-care workers should not try to turn them into ‘little Americans,’ and that meant following the wishes of their parents and the tenets of their religion in every way possible,” she explained. “That meant, among other things, no Internet [access], no television, maintaining their regular dress” -- the sect’s adherents dress in simple, hand-made clothing reflecting the 19th-century origins of the group’s faith -- “and honoring their dietary choices.”
“I think many staff were able to connect individually with some of the kids and probably broke down some stereotypes on both sides.
How awesome is this man! :woohoo:
"We struck a good balance between learning as much as we could about them to best serve them and meet their needs, while also being aware of the many similarities between this situation and other children in [our] care, thus utilizing our skills and expertise.”
He is smart enough to politely distance himself and his organization from CPS however:
“Some people didn’t understand that BCFS’s role was just to care for the children when they were in need of care,” he said. “We didn’t play a role in the removal or any of the court hearings. We just took care of the children while the legal aspects were being sorted out.
http://www.abpnews.com/3214.article
One small example of what can happen when we stop interpreting the culture and beliefs of the FLDS through our own cultural myths. This story gives me heart. I don't like to invoke the "God" word much but this man really tried to represent what Christianity, in fact humanity, should be about.
If there is anyone who could possibly bring change to the FLDS? It would be this man and his organization. Why? Are they superpowers? No. They just get it.
Really, it is that simple. They understand the basic principles of kindness, dignity, and respect for others. They obviously sought not to be understood but to understand. Mr. Dinnin not only embraces these concepts he has taught his workers to do the same.
Texas has many heroes in this situation. Many of them are anonymous. One of them is named Kevin Dinnin
( Italics are my thoughts)
"Children seized from a polygamist sect’s compound and temporarily entrusted to a Texas Baptist child-care agency bid farewell to their former caretakers May 31 with poetry, song and strong emotion. A poem, written on a large piece of poster board and decorated with hand-drawn flowers began:
“Just a brief note, but sincere from the heart/We wanted to tell you, at least a small part/How much we appreciate your efforts at “boot camp”/To put up with and care for this motherless bunch.” The poem’s conclusion read:
”So we’ll just close this little rhyme and say with great zest/’Thank You’ to everyone wearing the name/‘BCFS!’”
In-between, the children mentioned many of the organization’s workers by name and thanked them for specific actions. The children also gave out individual notes and performed songs they had composed for the occasion."
Why did the children feel this way?
"BCFS President Kevin Dinnin said the agency received “literally hundreds” of registered letters from FLDS parents back at the sect’s Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado, Texas. The letters contained requests on how they wanted the care for their children structured -- regarding everything from medications to education. “We complied with all of those requests, except one -- that FLDS elders be allowed to conduct religious services,” he said. Dinnin noted that the request was denied not by BCFS officials, but by state authorities.
“Basically, we said child-care workers should not try to turn them into ‘little Americans,’ and that meant following the wishes of their parents and the tenets of their religion in every way possible,” she explained. “That meant, among other things, no Internet [access], no television, maintaining their regular dress” -- the sect’s adherents dress in simple, hand-made clothing reflecting the 19th-century origins of the group’s faith -- “and honoring their dietary choices.”
“I think many staff were able to connect individually with some of the kids and probably broke down some stereotypes on both sides.
How awesome is this man! :woohoo:
"We struck a good balance between learning as much as we could about them to best serve them and meet their needs, while also being aware of the many similarities between this situation and other children in [our] care, thus utilizing our skills and expertise.”
He is smart enough to politely distance himself and his organization from CPS however:
“Some people didn’t understand that BCFS’s role was just to care for the children when they were in need of care,” he said. “We didn’t play a role in the removal or any of the court hearings. We just took care of the children while the legal aspects were being sorted out.
http://www.abpnews.com/3214.article
One small example of what can happen when we stop interpreting the culture and beliefs of the FLDS through our own cultural myths. This story gives me heart. I don't like to invoke the "God" word much but this man really tried to represent what Christianity, in fact humanity, should be about.
If there is anyone who could possibly bring change to the FLDS? It would be this man and his organization. Why? Are they superpowers? No. They just get it.
Really, it is that simple. They understand the basic principles of kindness, dignity, and respect for others. They obviously sought not to be understood but to understand. Mr. Dinnin not only embraces these concepts he has taught his workers to do the same.
Texas has many heroes in this situation. Many of them are anonymous. One of them is named Kevin Dinnin
Here is a man with humbling wisdom - practicing love where it matters the most. What a beautiful story.
Why am I getting the impression that you have a "personal" beef with Texas? It appears that you're slamming the point home with a 20 lb. sledgehammer.
This tiny little thread of truth is light as a feather when weighed against much of what has been posted and recorded in the rest of this forum.
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Maybe not. This is from faw's link:
Joe Spurlock, a Texas Wesleyan University law professor and former family court judge, said the Texas Family Code provides Child Protective Services with immunity from lawsuits even if the children are taken without a court order. In this case, where a court order was obtained, Spurlock said he didn't know how a lawsuit would succeed.
"Lawsuit? I don't think so," Spurlock said. "I think as long as the state took those kids under the reasonable belief that there was some type of abuse or neglect going on, they don't have a leg to stand on. Even in hindsight, as the Supreme Court said, you shouldn't have taken all of the kids, that doesn't mean there are grounds for a lawsuit unless you can prove they deliberately lied about the conditions on that ranch."
FLDS lawyers will also have to navigate Texas' sovereign immunity cap that limits damages against state agencies.
But Parker said lawyers could sue individually, most likely in federal court, to get around the cap.
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Same here, Montana. I see so many things that need to change. Religion should not exempt them from the law.
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Doesn't CPS interfere with parents all the time in that state and all the others? What is the judge going to do to change that?
CPS has a lot of power and very little oversight from what I can see. Not to say that most of the children removed by CPS every day in this country should not be taken from abusive parents...but isn't that interference with parents?
In todays litigious society there is no way that there wont be MANY lawsuits filed in connection with this case. Realistically that just wont be possible to get around, I am afraid
I for one, think it would be best if the FLDS did not sue the State or the County. I think if anything they should use their legal leverage they have at this moment to see if they can bring some good change to what is obviously a completely out of control entity and that is CPS.
This was true long before this raid. Officials within the Texas government have strongly urged Governor Rick Perry to address the physical and sexual abuse going on within CPS's custody as well as the drugging of children within its care. These concerns are well documented online and go back several years.
All of the Child Protective Service agencies are a mess and in the rankings Texas is one of the worst. What would be nice here would be to see some modification. In lieu of just suing for damages.
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