The Rest of the Story...

It is!

Did you notice what is getting the blame?

"movies, TV, videogames, lazy parents and lax discipline may all be to blame."


and did you notice the counteraction? No armed tanks, no guns, no media.

No indeedy, instead here is the solution if you are "mainstream" and do the same thing the FLDS were accused of doing

"...in response to them, officials are launching a three-prong educational program to address pregnancy, prevention and parenting."

educate? who'd 've thunk it?

No mention of taking the teens from their parents, no mention of investigating their homes. Instead, they are just going to educate them:bang:
 
Who said CPS is not investigating? Is this the same group of pregnant girls who made a pregnancy pact, or is just another large group of pregnant girls?
 
Hi SewingDeb!

This is another group.

The pact pregnancies are in the news too. Interesting wording in the article if you just read some of it and didnt know if it was the FLDS or mainstream folks being talked about.

for example -

*happened in a" fiercely religious enclave" I am removing the name of the actual religion and replacing it with the word religion .)

*"Families are broken," says Christopher Farmer.

Reminiscent of the "prophet switching people around? Or does the fact that the family is "broken" not matter so much as how we perceive what "broke" it?

*"Many of our young people are growing up directionless."

oh, you mean like the lost boys?

*"some girls seemed more upset when they weren't pregnant than when they were," Sullivan says.

So this must be a sign that they are "brainwashed", right? A young girl wanting to get pregnant before she is even 16?

This is interesting -

*But by May, after nurse practitioner Kim Daly had administered some 150 pregnancy tests at Gloucester High's student clinic, she and the clinic's medical director, Dr. Brian Orr, a local pediatrician, began to advocate prescribing contraceptives regardless of parental consent, a practice at about 15 public high schools in Massachusetts. Currently Gloucester teens must travel about 20 miles (30 km) to reach the nearest women's health clinic; younger girls have to get a ride or take the train and walk. But the notion of a school handing out birth control pills has met with hostility. Says Mayor Carolyn Kirk: "Dr. Orr and Ms. Daly have no right to decide this for our children."

Oh really?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1815845,00.html
 
What breaks a family is important. I assume financial problems broke up the families mentioned in this article. That's very different from the Prophet reassigning wives/children and kicking out husbands. In my mind it is different, I should say. In these cases, the fathers are still free to have contact with their children and be a part of raising them, even if it is part time.

I don't see Catholicism as contributing to this at all. I can see it being a problem when the school dispenses birth control in a largely Catholic community since that is against their religion. Looks like it is necessary though.

BTW: I don't see catholicism as anything like the FLDS and nowhere near a cult.
 
OH NO!:eek:



Of 490 uneraged females, 65 are pregnant!

104 of the 586 babies were born to mothers between 11 and 19.

Who is being blamed?

What is being done about it?

more at link!

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4885861/detail.html

You are failing to see the point. These girls are becoming pregnant of their own will (though they will regret it at some point). The FLDS girls are being forced to marry and have sex with old men against their will.

One is born of stupidity
The other is born of slavery

Surely you can see the difference.
 
Hi Pepper!

Am I? Like the article points out these high school girls want babies for the unconditional love. That is need driven behavior - not choice.

The FLDS girls want babies because that is highly honored as a command from God. (Their view)

The article also points out that the pop culture is mentoring this behavior. An argument could be made that the whole concept of the pop media supplanting the role of the parents in shaping these kids values is its own type of "brainwashing."

Regardless of why any of these girls get pregnant what happened to the argument that NO girl at the age of 16 is mature enough to make that decision - no matter what she might "think" she wants. That was used often enough with the FLDS by people here in this forum. Wouldn't that logic apply to ALL 16 yr olds?
 
But Glow the difference is that the girls that intentionally became pregnant were not locked in their bedrooms, therefore they were free to make choices about their behavior. The FLDS girls were "married" often against their will to men they would never choose, if choice were an option.
 
I don't see anyone saying it is alright for these girls 16 and younger to get pregnant. The posters are just pointing out that it is different because these girls choose to have sex, get pregnant and choose their partners. It is very different from the FLDS situation. There is no comparison, imo.
 
Need driven. That's an interesting way of looking at it Glow.

The reason we have laws for age of consent is because we know the teenage brain is not mature, therefore they are not able to give consent. That said, at least the mainstream teens are having sex with a partner of their choice...so yes, there is a choice.
 
The FLDS girls want babies because that is highly honored as a command from God. (Their view)
Oh, nonsense. The creepy old pervert men wrote their own commands so that they could have sex with every young child in their family...and then they lie to the kids through force and intimidation to make the children fearful enough to comply. The cult leaders are breaking the law of God as well as the law of the land.

Regardless of why any of these girls get pregnant what happened to the argument that NO girl at the age of 16 is mature enough to make that decision - no matter what she might "think" she wants. That was used often enough with the FLDS by people here in this forum. Wouldn't that logic apply to ALL 16 yr olds?
No one ever said anything like that. There is a huge difference between a woman making her own choices of whom to love, marry, and have children with...and the FLDS program of forcing a teen to have sex and non-stop babies with some nasty old male relative who thinks he owns (and has the right to assault) the girl because some convicted child rapist handed the child to him. The difference is clear as day.

You have defended the FLDS from day one, Glow. I am curious as to why? Do you get on every thread where children are being sexually abused and say the things you have said here? Mocking their suffering? Because, yes, somewhere, right now, some child is being abused. And yes, it is horrible. But you are the only one mocking it. It sickens me to read that type of post, and I honestly don't understand your point of view. So many people have asked you to explain, but you just go on ignoring the main fact that the FLDS sexually abuses their children. What is really bothering you about this case? Their religious views are not being challenged. Just the child abuse.

There was a time when the only help for child abuse came from the ASPCA. That's right...The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty To Animals. I am glad that we have progressed as a civilization to the point where we care as much for abused children as we do for abused pets.
 
Need driven. That's an interesting way of looking at it Glow.

The reason we have laws for age of consent is because we know the teenage brain is not mature, therefore they are not able to give consent. That said, at least the mainstream teens are having sex with a partner of their choice...so yes, there is a choice.


The only thing about us having "laws" is we keep changing them. Just 4 years ago it was "ok" for girls in Texas to have sex at the age of 14. What about their brain maturity then? See, the thing is, laws have never been based on brain maturity. It is more closely tied to what is going on socially at the time. When people had shorter life spans the rate at which they did everything was accelerated. That made sense at that time. In less developed countries the age is tied more to biological cues such as time of menstruation. Here in our highly developed society where we have freedom of choice, education, womens rights and so on, the rate at which females engage in sexual behavior should be higher, anthropologically speaking. Instead what we have is a media driven environment where everything from the songs to TV to movies, all of it I will just collectively call "the media" bombards our young ones from the cradle on up. We as a society passively allow the brainwashing of our young girls. Many times they are taking their cues on how to make choices from their peers, not from their parents.

I know this isnt true in every family. There are still parents out there raising fine young people who will make smart choices. Now that I have that said, the FACTS are that for many young girls the above statements still remain true. Did you notice in one of the articles on teen pregnancy I listed above that the girls kept coming in to the clinic to be tested and were disappointed if they were not pregnant? They were disappointed because they were part of a "pact" to get pregnant. Being part of that pact was just peer pressure pure and simple. It wasnt a girl trying to experiment with sex because her hormones were driving her in that direction. If that was the case she would have had sex and not gotten pregnant unless it was an "accident". In this case the sex was to "achieve pregnancy i.e.; acceptance in the group by fulfilling the "pact."

One of those girls got herself pregnant by an older HOMELESS man. Do you know who the homeless are? I did a paper on this years ago and the research I had to do really opened my eyes. I was one of those who thought that homeless people were just down on their luck. While there is a small amount of people that applies to that is NOT the core profile of a homeless person. The homeless are people who are either mentally ill and have fallen through the cracks of an over burdened system and basically are just wandering OR they are homeless as a result of life style choices. By that I mean drugs, alcoholism, prostitution and so on.

While writing the above paragraph I started wondering if the statistics have changed much in the years since I did research on the face of homelessness....I have a friend who is an artist and she recently completed a series of paintings that she did at a homeless shelter in our area. While she painted the people she talked to them about their life story. I stopped typing this post and called her....I asked her about the stories she was told. She said that it is all life style choices as far as her experience. She did not meet anyone who was there because they were out of work. So I guess the statistics are still the same.

So back to the under aged high school girl and the older homeless man she had sex with. If she just wanted to go walk on the wild side with a guy she saw, that would be one thing. But she targeted him as being necessary to achieve her goal, getting impregnated. My mind reels to think of the risks that opens up for her and the baby. Who knows how many diseases she got exposed to depending on his drug history, not to mention his sexual history. Why did she pick him? Was it because she found him attractive? Maybe. Another "maybe" is she felt pressured to get pregnant and didn't feel like she could ask the boys she knew. The possibilities are many and we will probably never know. The thing we do know is she was not "choosing" this. It only looks like that on the surface because she had freedom of mobility. This was being forced on her by factors she is too young to even understand because the media and peer pressure are undercurrents - she will only understand their power much later when she is older.
 
There is a vast difference between a society in which teenage girls sometimes (not routinely) get pregnant against the norms and best advise of general society, and a closed society like the FLDS which institutionalizes the abuse of young women by grooming them from birth to accept sex from older men at the direction of older men and generally requires their use as baby making machines as norms and best advice of the society. IMO, the vast majority of these young FLDS women currently have no choice, no voice. They are essentially chattle to be traded by the men in their society. They are taught that their place in heaven depends on men rather than their own faith.

When I think of the FLDS today, I think of the pictures of Warren Jeffs with the 12 year olds. Warren Jeffs is in jail right now but Warren is just the tip of the iceberg. What about the people who took those pictures? What about the parents who agreed to those marriages, the fathers, THE MOTHERS, the brothers, the sisters, the aunts and uncles, the grandmothers? What about the people who attended the wedding ceremonies? I assume Warren didn't perform the ceremony himself? What about the man who did? Is he in jail too? What about the people who put the photo albums together? What about Warren Jeffs pictures on the wall during the house tour--no images of Jesus, no crosses, only photos of a so-called prophet who was 'husband' to at least two 12 year-olds and whose nephew said had sexually abused him!? Who put those pictures up? Child abuse is institutionalized in this culture and this culture seems competent at keeping the outside world from stopping it. Oh, we have Jeffs in jail, and a few others, but the assembly line of this religion just keeps on cranking out childbrides and men who take them. The church itself will have to stop the abuse. Ex members describe a culture that got more rotten over time, most of all under the direction of Jeffs. The age of marriage for women seems to have trended down over the past twenty years, which means it could trend back up. But will it when the people who let those girls get married at 12 to a 50 year old man ARE STILL OUT THERE? At one time, education did seem to be permitted more widely. That could happen again. But, will it when the same people who took those pictures of Jeffs and the 12 year old and put them albums ARE STILL AT LARGE. I'm not hopeful.

To me it seems, generally speaking, that when FLDS members write or speak, they do not show a willingness to admit, acknowledge or accept that any short comings exist within their group, let alone take any responsibility. They do agressively blame others--ex members, CPS, the government, the outside world. I didn't hear one FLDS man speak during the Texas case who didn't throw in some or other dig about the way other people lived, yet they are forever admonishing 'us' to accept them not to criticize them, when they don't accept and continually criticize 'us.' Their game plan seems to blame 'us' for everything they do wrong, even though they don't think they're doing anything wrong. You tube has Willie Jessop saying that NOW, after what happened in TX, the FLDS can't trust 'us.' Yeah, Willie, like you ever trusted 'us,' or ever would. But you trusted Warren Jeffs, didn't you? Don't you still? It's like Merrill Jessop's blaming Carolyn because their baby was seriously ill. It was her fault. It wasn't his. Yet, Merrill apparently permitted a marriage between Warren Jeffs and at least one of the 12 year olds in the photos who was his daughter. Apparently, he was the man in charge at YFZ at the time of the raid. But, according to Willie, none of what happened in TX is the fault of a group who allow 12 year olds to marry or their leader(s). Everything that happened to the FLDS, according to Warren's Jeff's body guard is society's fault. The FLDS thinks it's better than society. It wants nothing to do with general society but it thinks society needs to understand and accept it, without any reciprocation. In the meantime, where is Merrill, where is his daughter who married Warren Jeffs at 12? Where are the people who allowed those twelve year olds to be abused and took pictures of the happy event? There's still out there, aren't they?
 
There is a vast difference between a society in which teenage girls sometimes (not routinely) get pregnant against the norms and best advise of general society, and a closed society like the FLDS which institutionalizes the abuse of young women by grooming them from birth to accept sex from older men at the direction of older men and generally requires their use as baby making machines as norms and best advice of the society. IMO, the vast majority of these young FLDS women currently have no choice, no voice. They are essentially chattle to be traded by the men in their society. They are taught that their place in heaven depends on men rather than their own faith. ?

In the not too distant past a good Catholic girl was raised to believe her "role" was to grow up and marry within her "closed" society (another Catholic) many times her "choice" was greatly in the hands of her elders as to "who" she would marry. Once married her duty was to produce as many children as possible with NO choice as to birth control. She would of course, go along with all of this because of her "faith". Yolorado, do you have a problem with the Catholic church also?


When I think of the FLDS today, I think of the pictures of Warren Jeffs with the 12 year olds. Warren Jeffs is in jail right now but Warren is just the tip of the iceberg. What about the people who took those pictures? What about the parents who agreed to those marriages, the fathers, THE MOTHERS, the brothers, the sisters, the aunts and uncles, the grandmothers? What about the people who attended the wedding ceremonies? I assume Warren didn't perform the ceremony himself? What about the man who did? Is he in jail too? What about the people who put the photo albums together? What about Warren Jeffs pictures on the wall during the house tour--no images of Jesus, no crosses, only photos of a so-called prophet who was 'husband' to at least two 12 year-olds and whose nephew said had sexually abused him!? Who put those pictures up? Child abuse is institutionalized in this culture and this culture seems competent at keeping the outside world from stopping it. Oh, we have Jeffs in jail, and a few others, but the assembly line of this religion just keeps on cranking out childbrides and men who take them. The church itself will have to stop the abuse. Ex members describe a culture that got more rotten over time, most of all under the direction of Jeffs. The age of marriage for women seems to have trended down over the past twenty years, which means it could trend back up. But will it when the people who let those girls get married at 12 to a 50 year old man ARE STILL OUT THERE? At one time, education did seem to be permitted more widely. That could happen again. But, will it when the same people who took those pictures of Jeffs and the 12 year old and put them albums ARE STILL AT LARGE. I'm not hopeful.

These are good points you are making and they are good questions you are asking. I have mentioned Brooke Adams numerous times. She asked the same questions you are. Here is her link http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/06/stormy-weather-ahead.htm the questions are at the end of the article. I like Brooke Adams because she attempts to be balanced in looking at this issue. So many reporters have failed in that attempt unfortunately.


To me it seems, generally speaking, that when FLDS members write or speak, they do not show a willingness to admit, acknowledge or accept that any short comings exist within their group, let alone take any responsibility. They do agressively blame others--ex members, CPS, the government, the outside world. I didn't hear one FLDS man speak during the Texas case who didn't throw in some or other dig about the way other people lived, yet they are forever admonishing 'us' to accept them not to criticize them, when they don't accept and continually criticize 'us.' Their game plan seems to blame 'us' for everything they do wrong, even though they don't think they're doing anything wrong..

Youre pretty much always going to see that reaction when you mob burn and run people out of town because of their religion. If the FLDS just ran around acting that way all their own, that would make your above statements more valid. The problem is they are behaving the way they are as a reactionary stance to their long history of being reviled and persecuted by others. They didnt start out this way. Read their history. If a people are threatened and react to that threat, do we blame them or do we blame the ignorance and intolerance that caused it in the first place?



You tube has Willie Jessop saying that NOW, after what happened in TX, the FLDS can't trust 'us.' Yeah, Willie, like you ever trusted 'us,' or ever would. But you trusted Warren Jeffs, didn't you? Don't you still? It's like Merrill Jessop's blaming Carolyn because their baby was seriously ill. It was her fault. It wasn't his. Yet, Merrill apparently permitted a marriage between Warren Jeffs and at least one of the 12 year olds in the photos who was his daughter. Apparently, he was the man in charge at YFZ at the time of the raid. But, according to Willie, none of what happened in TX is the fault of a group who allow 12 year olds to marry or their leader(s). Everything that happened to the FLDS, according to Warren's Jeff's body guard is society's fault. The FLDS thinks it's better than society. It wants nothing to do with general society but it thinks society needs to understand and accept it, without any reciprocation. In the meantime, where is Merrill, where is his daughter who married Warren Jeffs at 12? Where are the people who allowed those twelve year olds to be abused and took pictures of the happy event? There's still out there, aren't they?

Yes, he is reactionary, CPS was reactionary. And on it goes. It didnt have to be this way. It is all such a shame.
 
Glow, I'm 54 years old and very aware of who the homeless people are. The girl you mentioned was not using good judgement in choosing the 24 year old homeless man as her partner for impregnation. Just goes to show there is a need for age of consent laws.

You said: The thing we do know is she was not "choosing" this.

My answer: Yes she was. It was entirely her choice. No one held a gun to her head or brainwashed her for her entire life that this was God's command. Media and peer pressure do factor in but her parents should have taught her not to give in to that pressure.

Texas finally got wise and raised the age of consent. Should have been done ages ago. Doesn't mean it was ever right for a 14 year old to be having sex and possibly getting pregnant or catching a STD. Kudos to Texas.

My guess is that you are a PR person for the FLDS. Am I right? You seem too intelligent to actually believe the arguments you are making.
 
Glow, I'm 54 years old and very aware of who the homeless people are. The girl you mentioned was not using good judgement in choosing the 24 year old homeless man as her partner for impregnation. Just goes to show there is a need for age of consent laws..

The laws are in place? What good did they do here?



My answer: Yes she was. It was entirely her choice. No one held a gun to her head or brainwashed her for her entire life that this was God's command. Media and peer pressure do factor in but her parents should have taught her not to give in to that pressure.

I cant automatically place the blame on her parents. For all I know they did teach her about peer pressure. With some kids what they are taught is rendered powerless in the face of something more powerful. For some that would be peer pressure. I think in high school that is probably the most powerful force around. I know in my own case as a mother, I tried to inculcate the best values I could. There were times though when outside forces over rode my voice and the choices my kids made caused me sleepless nights. Having worn those "parental" shoes and walked in them I cannot say the parents caused this.



Texas finally got wise and raised the age of consent. Should have been done ages ago. Doesn't mean it was ever right for a 14 year old to be having sex and possibly getting pregnant or catching a STD. Kudos to Texas..

Texas didnt "get wise" the state legislator who sponsored new statutes in 2005 specifically targeting FLDS, Rep. Harvey Hildebran, is responsible.

My guess is that you are a PR person for the FLDS. Am I right? You seem too intelligent to actually believe the arguments you are making.

I think you know better and are just being sarcastic. Usually sarcasm is caused by irritation. So for the fact that I have irritated you (if I have) I am truly sorry. My purpose is not to irritate but to talk about this topic and to hear other points of view, as well as express my own. I have deeply appreciated that you have been willing to come and chat with me on this thread about this topic and I would by no means want to irritate you. I enjoy hearing your thoughts even though they are different than mine. I think most people would agree with the majority of what you say.
 
Oh, I wasn't saying the parents caused this. My statement was they should have...I don't know if they did or not but most good parents would.

Yes, I know those sleepless nights too. : )

You said: Texas didnt "get wise" the state legislator who sponsored new statutes in 2005 specifically targeting FLDS, Rep. Harvey Hildebran, is responsible.

It doesn't matter to my why it was done but I am glad it WAS done. Maybe the thought of hundreds of girls being forced into early marriages with old men is what brought it about but, like I said before, it should have been done a long time ago.

I'm not being sarcastic at all. I am seriously thinking that's why you are here defending the FLDS. I apologize if I am wrong but that is my impression.

I think the majority do feel the way I do. Why do you feel the way you do? Do you think it is good to marry off girls early and trap them into a life of one baby after another?


I have 3 daughters and a son and I would never let them get married at such a young age. For one thing, it is not good for a growing child to carry a pregnancy. There are many risks when teenagers are pregnant. For another, I know they are not ready for the responsibility and won't be for many more years. What's the hurry?
 
It doesn't matter to my why it was done but I am glad it WAS done.

Well you were saying the FLDS were awful for allowing 14 yr olds to have sex and I pointed out that the state of Texas did the same thing until just recently ( I have yet to hear ONE person say that Texas was awful for that, by the way) instead Texas is applauded for raising the age as though there was some conscious raising awareness on the part of the state. There wasnt. There WAS a man in a position of power, that thought this would be a good way to run the FLDS out of his state. So why the kudos to Texas?

The FLDS has said that they will comply with state law which makes them like Texas - first they married girls as young as 14 and now they dont - assuming they hold to that, do they deserve kudos too?



Maybe the thought of hundreds of girls being forced into early marriages with old men is what brought it about but, like I said before, it should have been done a long time ago.?

Yes and that is the "ick" factor about this whole case that people stay focused on. Nevermind that the state couldnt make that case. Never mind that mother after mother came forward that had been to college or held down a job and had her first child after turning 18. Never mind that Carolyn Jessops oldest daughter left to go back to live with the FLDS as soon as she legally could and that she and her mom have a good relationship. Never mind that hundreds of children were snatched out of their mothers arms only to find the state had no evidence. As long as the press can keep the "ick" factor alive and well, that is were the focus will remain, accurate or not, doesnt matter.

I'm not being sarcastic at all. I am seriously thinking that's why you are here defending the FLDS. I apologize if I am wrong but that is my impression.

Ok, so how much do you think they pay me for my PR work?
musik36.gif


I think the majority do feel the way I do. Why do you feel the way you do?

If it were true that truth lay in the realm of the majority then I would go with the majority. In most matters, truth lies off in the darkened corner while "opinion" takes center stage. When this case first broke I could feel with everything in me that this was not being handled right. By "right" I mean according to the Constitution. I dont care if it is FLDS, or some other group. There is a right and wrong way to acheive a goal. This was done the wrong way. If we dont speak up and take notice now - when are we supposed to?


Do you think it is good to marry off girls early and trap them into a life of one baby after another? I have 3 daughters and a son and I would never let them get married at such a young age. For one thing, it is not good for a growing child to carry a pregnancy. There are many risks when teenagers are pregnant. For another, I know they are not ready for the responsibility and won't be for many more years. What's the hurry?

Both of those apply in OUR world. They are not applicable to the world of the FLDS. Go back enough generations and many of us had a teen grandparent. We live in a different world then they do. IF there were SO many teen pregnancies that are SO dangerous among the FLDS, then where are the dead girls that would result? YFZ ranch had healthy babies and moms and only 3 graves - all accounted for.

Not to mention the teen pregnancy rate among mainstream society is higher than the teen pregnancy rate among the FLDS. Where is our collective indignance about that?
 

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