The Rest of the Story...

I asked this question earlier, but I wanted to post it again. So many seem to feel these girls are being denied an education. I was wondering about the educational level of all of us posting here. We are free and mainstream and can get as much education as we want. So how much did you get? How about your moms? Your daughters? Your sisters? Your friends?
 
The only reason that Texas investigated is because the FLDS have been enslaving and raping their own children for generations. It is not freedom of religion to assault a child. Every child deserves to grow up and make their own choices about how to live their life. Parents who force their teenage daughters to be impregnated by older male relatives are denying their children the basics of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That is the most basic right in America, and no one is entitled to forcibly enslave, rape, and impregnate anyone, much less their own child. The men of the FLDS are child molestors. There is no way to twist that into goodness.

Yep, well said. And they still support Warren Jeffs. He's still their guy, their Prophet, their conduit to God. Of course, for some in TX, he's their biological father, their husband, their uncle, their son-in-law. They know what he's been up to and they don't care. They put his picture on the walls of their little children's rooms. They his play recordings and quote his sermons to their children. They've left their children at the ranch to visit him in prision. They emulate his vocal intonation and pattern of speach. They defend him, refuse to acknowledge any wrong-doing on his part. They accuse society of persucuting him because he's God's chosen...not because of the things he's done wrong. Many apparently don't think he's done anything wrong. :confused:
 
Have you ever wondered why Carolyn Jessop allowed her teenaged daughter to go back into that life style without a fight?
There are tapes of Carolyn actually talking about Betty's return on the internet. Of course, she wrote in the book about Betty not wanting to leave, screaming all the way to Salt Lake the night they left, and never coming to a point where she wanted to stay in the outside world. She saw several councelors but never gave up her devotion to the church. At a booksigning, when asked about Betty, Carolyn made some comments about her having gone back. The upshot is basically that Betty was just hardcore FLDS. The other kids adapted to the outside, but she did not. Carolyn said she was sad to see her go but that it was her choice. Carolyn had her for four years. She'd been exposed to a world outside the FLDS and she now has a high school degree which Carolyn didn't think she would have gotten in the FLDS. If she gets married and starts having babies, she's 18, not 14, and she knows that if she ever wants to get out, she can come to Carolyn who will always help her if she needs it.
 
they still support Warren Jeffs. He's still their guy, their Prophet, their conduit to God. Of course, for some in TX, he's their biological father, their husband, their uncle, their son-in-law. They know what he's been up to and they don't care. They put his picture on the walls of their little children's rooms. They his play recordings and quote his sermons to their children. They've left their children at the ranch to visit him in prision. They emulate his vocal intonation and pattern of speach. They defend him, refuse to acknowledge any wrong-doing on his part. They accuse society of persucuting him because he's God's chosen...not because of the things he's done wrong. Many apparently don't think he's done anything wrong. :confused:

Well dont you find that with all religions? Pope Pius XII knew about Hitler and didnt do anything. Didnt speak out. Didnt excommunicate him. Nada. People of the Catholic faith still followed him. Jim Baker still had loyal followers donating money even after his nefarious deeds came to light. Sex scandals and religious leaders go hand in hand. So that cant be the reason people are so upset at the FLDS or else they'd be just as upset at all the other religions, so what is it really? What is the ONE thing they are doing that other religions havent?
 
There are tapes of Carolyn actually talking about Betty's return on the internet. Of course, she wrote in the book about Betty not wanting to leave, screaming all the way to Salt Lake the night they left, and never coming to a point where she wanted to stay in the outside world. She saw several councelors but never gave up her devotion to the church. At a booksigning, when asked about Betty, Carolyn made some comments about her having gone back. The upshot is basically that Betty was just hardcore FLDS. The other kids adapted to the outside, but she did not. Carolyn said she was sad to see her go but that it was her choice. Carolyn had her for four years. She'd been exposed to a world outside the FLDS and she now has a high school degree which Carolyn didn't think she would have gotten in the FLDS. If she gets married and starts having babies, she's 18, not 14, and she knows that if she ever wants to get out, she can come to Carolyn who will always help her if she needs it.


Thanks for answering me - I didnt know all of those details. I am glad that she got her high school diploma too. So if a girl is 18 and really wants the FLDS lifestyle would that still be wrong?
 
In looking in to "who can marry whom" I found some interesting facts.

Fact: It is estimated that 20 percent of all couples worldwide are first cousins. It is also estimated that 80 percent of all marriages historically have been between first cousins!

Fact: In some cultures, the term cousin and mate are synonymous.

Fact: The range of consanguinity in Saudi Arabia is between 34 to 80+ percent. A study has been done on birth defects resulting from consanguineous marriages in this country. Read about it.

Fact: Albert Einstein married his first cousin. And so did Charles Darwin, who had exceptional children.

Fact: Franklin D. Roosevelt, the longest serving US president in history married his cousin (not a first cousin, however they shared the same last name).

Fact: The first Prime Minister of Canada, Sir John A. MacDonald married his first cousin.

Fact: Leviticus 18 lists all forbidden sexual relationships. Cousin relationships are not included.

Fact: God commanded many cousins to marry, including Zelophehad's 5 daughters, Eleazar's daughters, Jacob (who married both Rachel and Leah, first cousins), and Isaac and Rebekkah (first cousins once removed). All were ancestors of Jesus Christ.

Fact: Current studies indicate that cousin couples have a lower ratio of miscarriages -- perhaps because body chemistry of cousins is more similar. The verdict is still out.

http://www.cousincouples.com/info/facts.shtml
 
You weren't obtuse at all, Glow. I can appreciate diversity and respect other's religious beliefs but when it comes to lack of freedom, sexual assault, forced marriages and kicking young people out on the streets, I draw the line on that respect.
 
Hi Details,

You do know that CPS didnt find any abused children or any underaged pregnant teens, right?

They didn't find any underaged pregnant teens? I don't think that is correct. There is a link on one of the threads where the attorney for a 16 year old girl doesn't want her to go back...wonder what that's all about?

The investigation is still ongoing. Just because the children were returned does not mean there will be no abuse charges against any FLDS member. A grand jury has convened for the criminal charges.
 
Glow, as far as teen pregnancy rates and marrying cousins goes, have you ever heard the phrase two wrongs don't make a right? I've always told my children just because your friends jump off a bridge doesn't mean you have to do it.

I think you are comparing apples and oranges on a lot of the things you bring up on this thread.
 
Glow,

You said: Fact: God commanded many cousins to marry, including Zelophehad's 5 daughters, Eleazar's daughters, Jacob (who married both Rachel and Leah, first cousins), and Isaac and Rebekkah (first cousins once removed). All were ancestors of Jesus Christ.

----
Did God command them directly or did that come through the prophet of the time? In other words, did God command it or did a human command it?
 
In looking in to "who can marry whom" I found some interesting facts.

Fact: It is estimated that 20 percent of all couples worldwide are first cousins. It is also estimated that 80 percent of all marriages historically have been between first cousins!

Fact: In some cultures, the term cousin and mate are synonymous.

Fact: The range of consanguinity in Saudi Arabia is between 34 to 80+ percent. A study has been done on birth defects resulting from consanguineous marriages in this country. Read about it.

Fact: Albert Einstein married his first cousin. And so did Charles Darwin, who had exceptional children.

Fact: Franklin D. Roosevelt, the longest serving US president in history married his cousin (not a first cousin, however they shared the same last name).

Fact: The first Prime Minister of Canada, Sir John A. MacDonald married his first cousin.

Fact: Leviticus 18 lists all forbidden sexual relationships. Cousin relationships are not included.

Fact: God commanded many cousins to marry, including Zelophehad's 5 daughters, Eleazar's daughters, Jacob (who married both Rachel and Leah, first cousins), and Isaac and Rebekkah (first cousins once removed). All were ancestors of Jesus Christ.

Fact: Current studies indicate that cousin couples have a lower ratio of miscarriages -- perhaps because body chemistry of cousins is more similar. The verdict is still out.

http://www.cousincouples.com/info/facts.shtml
Glow, your argument in favor of FLDS practices is beginning to sound hollow and desperate!

During the early years of settling this continent, it was not uncommon for cousins to marry. Most of the settlers were farmers and courtship was limited to how far you could ride a horse & buggy in a few hours. Since families oven lived close to other relatives, a person of marrying age might be a first cousin. However, gradually many families moved west, and that changed the dynamic.

Did you also know that in those "olden days" it was not uncommon for women to become pregnant BEFORE marriage? The reason for this is two-fold. 1. Women needed to prove they were fertile. Having many helping hands on the farm was a necessity. 2. Often there was no preacher in the area, and couples had to wait for the arrival of a circuit preacher to perform the ceremony, and the wait might be several months.

Here's another tidbit of information from the "good old days." Women and children were considered the property of the man of the household. Therefore, beating your wife or child, EVEN TO THE POINT OF DEATH, wasn't considered a crime. They rationized that the man must have had a good reason.

Needless to say, in those days women and blacks couldn't vote. White adult males held all the power.

I think we've become enlightened as a society since the "good old days." Women and blacks are allowed to vote. Young people of dating/marriage age can interact with many more people, so that choosing a spouse is not limited to the girl next door. We now have supermarkets and gasoline powered machines, so the need to breed a bunch of farm workers is not necessary.

So let me add to your fact list.

Fact: Marriages within the FLDS can and do occur between niece and uncle and close relationships other than cousins like half bothers-sisters.

Fact: Children produced by incest and close blood relationships have a much higher incidence of birth defects and genetically transmitted diseases (fermase deficiency).

Fact: The YFZ ranch is bounded by fences, gates and guards to serve not only to keep out intruders, but also to keep in the women and young girls.

Fact: It is not an uncommon practice for FLDS men to "teach" their daughters how to satisfy a man in bed in preparation for their marriage - incest AND child abuse.

Fact: Their acknowledged leader Warren Jeffs is a convicted and incarcerated felon, a sex abuser, a pedophile, and a tyrant.
 
Glow,

You said: Fact: God commanded many cousins to marry, including Zelophehad's 5 daughters, Eleazar's daughters, Jacob (who married both Rachel and Leah, first cousins), and Isaac and Rebekkah (first cousins once removed). All were ancestors of Jesus Christ.

----
Did God command them directly or did that come through the prophet of the time? In other words, did God command it or did a human command it?

Actually I didnt say any of that - I just provided the link.
 
Thanks for answering me - I didnt know all of those details. I am glad that she got her high school diploma too. So if a girl is 18 and really wants the FLDS lifestyle would that still be wrong?
What do YOU think, Glow?
 
Well dont you find that with all religions? Pope Pius XII knew about Hitler and didnt do anything. Didnt speak out. Didnt excommunicate him. Nada. People of the Catholic faith still followed him. Jim Baker still had loyal followers donating money even after his nefarious deeds came to light. Sex scandals and religious leaders go hand in hand. So that cant be the reason people are so upset at the FLDS or else they'd be just as upset at all the other religions, so what is it really? What is the ONE thing they are doing that other religions havent?
They have removed free will and self determination from young people on the verge of becoming adults.
 
They didn't find any underaged pregnant teens? I don't think that is correct.

Nope. Didnt find any. In addition, LE knew that the Sarah calls werent coming from inside the state of Texas. They raided anyway.



There is a link on one of the threads where the attorney for a 16 year old girl doesn't want her to go back...wonder what that's all about?

Here is what it is all about:

That one girl? She does not have a child
Texas attorney Natalie Malonis created quite a stir a couple weeks ago when she stood in an open courtroom in San Angelo and said she was worried that Judge Barbara Walther might send her client home.

Natalie said she had reason to believe the 16-year-old girl, a daughter of Annette and Warren Jeffs, might have had a child who was being claimed by another mother.

Now the rest of the story: Not true. I spoke to Natalie today and she said it is now clear the girl has never been pregnant, never had a child. She said the initial suspicion had come from law enforcement, but was erroneous.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/06/that-one-girl-she-does-not-have-child.htm





[/QUOTE]
 
They have removed free will and self determination from young people on the verge of becoming adults.

But that is what WE are being told. That is not what is coming out of the mouths of the young ones on the verge of becoming adults.

I thought it was interesting to read the emails that the 16 year old still under restraining orders wrote to her lawyer. She doesnt sound brainwashed or uneducated or timid. She sounds irritated and fiesty and smart. Have you had a chance to read them?

I think that we need to allow room not just for the black and the white but also there must be some allowance for the gray. Painting these people as all good is in error. Painting them as all bad would be too. When we dont allow for the gray - that is where we run the risk of trampling peoples civil and moral rights. That is my concern.
 
Well dont you find that with all religions? Pope Pius XII knew about Hitler and didnt do anything. Didnt speak out. Didnt excommunicate him. Nada. People of the Catholic faith still followed him. Jim Baker still had loyal followers donating money even after his nefarious deeds came to light. Sex scandals and religious leaders go hand in hand. So that cant be the reason people are so upset at the FLDS or else they'd be just as upset at all the other religions, so what is it really? What is the ONE thing they are doing that other religions havent?
This need to level all things and make all things equal is what drove me crazy about the public schools. You seem determined to do that too. Are you a public school teacher? We aren't really talking about Catholics right now, although the Catholics I know will openly acknowledge various shortcomings of their religious structure and clearly disavow the sexual abuse by priests, unlike members of the FLDS who don't seem willing to see Jeff's errors or to rebuke him. I know many Catholics becaue they don't live in a closed society. They live in my neigborhood. They attend the same schools. They shop at my grocery. Their church groups worked with others in the community helping tornado and huricane victims. They don't set themselves apart and try to establish their own laws while ignoring those of society. I don't know any of them who planned and witnessed a marriage a 12 or 14 year old in our generation, and they don't routinely stop educating their kids around 12-14 in present times. In fact, Notre Dame University is a really big deal and a lot of them hope their kids will go there and to other colleges and universities to learn and grow so that they can support themselves and be of benefit to society, not just Catholic society, US society. They join with others in their neighborhoods, towns and state to be part of US society, unlike the FLDS, which exists to serve itself and does not seek to be part of general society, unless of course it can pick up a pricey government contract.

What do you think of people who follow Warren Jeffs? Doesn't bother you? You like it? Who cares? You think it's fine to kiss 12 year olds, marry them, and marry 14 year olds to their cousins when the 14 year old doesn't want to marry her cousin? People have married their cousins before, why shouldn't everyone else? So what if it's against the law in some states? It was ok before, why the pass the law if it was ok before? Makes sense for Warren to marry anywhere from 50-180 women; after all he's the alpha male? He should be able to develop stable, loving relationships with all those women, and their children to boot, right? He can provide for all those people, even if he has to steal money, buildings and heavy equipment from the church to do it, right? That's what you think? So what if he can not feed all those mouths and they have to go on wellfare (not just talkin' TX here; now I'm talking historically about UT and AZ, maybe ND, NV, ID?) Other people go on wellfare, so it's ok for them too? So what if their lifestyle is against the law? Other people break the law, why shouldn't they? And besides, since it they did it historically, it shouldn't be against the law anyway? Why shouldn't they pull something over on society? They're God's chose and society persecutes them anyway? Even if Jeffs can't remember all the names of his wives, let alone his children, that's ok, right? Who needs a dad who knows your name? So what 49-179 guys have to go without? Seems like a great way to structure a society? Correct? Is that what you think? Or, all ways of structuring a society equal, so why judge? Is that where you're coming from? Why bother educating the kids, they'll never leaved the closed society--unless of course they escape or get thrown out? If some schools in the US are bad, why shouldn't the FLDS undereducate their children too? Is that what you think? So what if a few 12 or 14 year olds get married and pregnant, they're having their periods, so why the fridge not? That's your opinon? What do you think about people who follow this man? You have no problem with it? Or you do? Other religions are bad too, so what the heck? Is that what you are saying? Where are you coming from? What do you think?
 
What do YOU think, Glow?


I think that in the spirit of supporting women in the making of their own choices I would have my work cut out for me in that situation!

If my daughter was 18. then I couldnt stop her physically. I think I would try to stop her mentally by using my words to point out what I personally disagree with about this religion. I think I would try as hard as I can to understand why she wants to be a part of it.

Bottom line - I would respect her right to make her own decisions - even when I dont agree.
 

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