The shortest distance between two points is a straight line...

[LinasK]

I've wondered the same thing and I agree with your assessment. I can't see either of these particular parents being willing to cover for the other who'd been molesting and ultimately murdered their child. Especially a mother! If you found your husband had been violating your baby and then he murdered her, your last instinct would be to *save* his it would be to kill him! The only remotely rational conclusion (not that there necessarily is a rational conclusion) is that these parents covered up this crime because their other child did it.
As bad as it may sound, in some ways I hope this is what happened as it's the only scenario that makes the Ramsey's actions *somewhat* understandable.

I disagree. Not if Patsy's father had molested her, then she might feel it was a normal thing for a father to do (sick as that is). I do believe Patsy stood by her man.

 

[BBB167893]

LinasK, you know better than most that it's commonplace to blame the victim.

 

[Eagle1]

I've asked you this in another thread, just a few minutes ago, Linask, so I know you haven't read it yet. Sometimes we don't get back to one, so I'm asking again here, where did we all get the idea that PR and her sisters were molested by their father in the first place? It just seemed like a good idea at the time and we were having to go creative?

And before these two threads I think it was discussed that it was a long time after Don Paugh's helping with the business that Judith Philips said both JonBenet and PR seemed dramatically changed when they returned from a trip to Houston. She said JBr's eyes no longer sparkled like a kid's, that she seemed to have lost her look of innocence.

We don't know if JP was enough of an expert to decide that, but we're talking about whether Don Paugh's been unjustly smeared or not. Just PR's reaction when asked about it doesn't really tell us anything. Any of us would be shocked if anyone asked us such a thing about our father, and might assume we wouldn't be believed, if anyone could even think such a thing.
"They say" people who've been sexually abused have long-term effects, inferiority complex, etc. True, Marilyn Vanderbur or whoever it was went on to become a beauty queen, but we don't know many if any others who overcompensated in that way, so we can't know about PR.

I forget if I'm still in the thread about Burke playing doctor, wanted to say LHP may have seen other kids in these positions, maybe her own or some relatives', that it happens but not necessarily so in this particular case because many have remarked LHP lied.

Example, someone posted that she claimed not to have known the wine cellar was there, and at another point said no wine was ever stored there. Don't ask me exactly which thread, don't remember.

These things about the family certainly could be possible, but there are also way too many very strange coincidences about other people. I just think maybe all of them were somehow involved, not just the family.

 

[BBB167893]

Eagle1, the idea comes from Patsy's '98 interview.

 

[Eagle1]

You mean the idea that Don Paugh was a molester?

Always have to read a few previous posts to find out what you're referring to because who can remember what was being discussed in every thread? But that's okay.

I just don't think her reaction was definite proof. Maybe, maybe not.

Many of us would be shocked and maybe react that way if someone suggested such a thing about our fathers. Everyone's an individual, people not made by cookie cutters, so I just don't think we can jump to conclusions based on how we personally would act. Just saying maybe or maybe not.
PR did go home to her father's house to die, as if she'd feel most comfortable there.

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

"I just don't think her reaction was definite proof. Maybe, maybe not."

I never said it was. I never said I could prove it.

"PR did go home to her father's house to die, as if she'd feel most comfortable there."

That proves nothing, Eagle1. When a child is molested, not all of them confront their abuser. If they can't, they become bound to them.

 

[sharkeyes]

When a child is molested, not all of them confront their abuser. If they can't, they become bound to them.

Very true. I know 2 sisters who were sexually abused by their father since the ages of 6 and 8; one of them confronted him when she was 16 and never had a relationship with him; the other never confronted him, and as she got older (the abuse stopped at about age 12) she appeared to have a very close relationship to the point where she stated she "fell in love with her father" - very disturbing. Interestingly, their mother "looked the other way" and often stated to their father "you don't want anyone to have them until you do!"

 

[rashomon]

I just had a thought. I don't think I've read it anywhere before.

Perhaps Burke was responsible for the head injury, perhaps while playing doctor. PR and/or JR come to JBR's aid but she is unconscious. They hesitate to seek medical help because JBR has been sexually assaulted. They send Burke to bed and try to tend to JBR. She appears to be dead, and they now are concerned about Burke's reaction to killing his own sister. That decide to stage the whole thing about a kidnapping and strangulation to protect Burke -- not just from the LE but from himself! The idea was that he would be told that JBR was killed by an intruder and that her death had nothing to do with the accident earlier that night.

Is it possible that the Ramseys would go to such extremes as to strangle their own daughter (who they believed to already be dead) in order to protect their son from the lifelong guilt of killing his sister???

No way imo. The Ramseys telling Burke (who had delivered the head bash) in order to protect him from himself, that some intruder killed JB? How could they expect Burke to believe that? And why should a head injury be part of a sexual "playing doctor" game?

 

[BBB167893]

Sharkeyes, no matter how many times I hear stories like that one, they always get my guts churning.

 

[sharkeyes]

Sharkeyes, no matter how many times I hear stories like that one, they always get my guts churning.

SD, do you think Patsy knew JB was being molested by JR and just kept quiet while at the same time lived through JB vicariously and secretly resented her?

I know, I know, JR does not "look like" someone who would do something as terrible as that, but, it seems very plausible to me, as I mentioned above, I've seen it first hand - an upstanding member of the community (a church Deacon no less!) who molested his girls and a mother who denied there was anything wrong but who lashed out at the girls frequently...to an outsider everything appeared to be SO normal...but behind closed doors there was a frightening family dynamic in which the mother looked at her daughters as "the other women" - in a sense, and when she got angry at them it was an incredible rage that would be displayed.

 

[LinasK]

SD, do you think Patsy knew JB was being molested by JR and just kept quiet while at the same time lived through JB vicariously and secretly resented her?

I know, I know, JR does not "look like" someone who would do something as terrible as that, but, it seems very plausible to me, as I mentioned above, I've seen it first hand - an upstanding member of the community (a church Deacon no less!) who molested his girls and a mother who denied there was anything wrong but who lashed out at the girls frequently...to an outsider everything appeared to be SO normal...but behind closed doors there was a frightening family dynamic in which the mother looked at her daughters as "the other women" - in a sense, and when she got angry at them it was an incredible rage that would be displayed.

Sharkeyes, I absolutely believe it, and horrible as it is, thank-you for bringing that story to light. So many people refuse to believe sexual abuse victims. I know this personally.

 

[BBB167893]

SD, do you think Patsy knew JB was being molested by JR and just kept quiet while at the same time lived through JB vicariously and secretly resented her?

Oh, boy. Sharkeyes, there is a case to be made there, but there's also this little nagging doubt in the back of my head.

Let's spitball: if she was being molested by her father (I definitely think she was molested, but I'm not ready to say he did it specifically), it's not uncommon for the other parent to look the other way, especially in a case like this, where there's so much to lose. Let's spitball even further: if Patsy was herself molested as a child and was never able to face her abuser, she may have thought that was "normal." Jamie Turndorf thinks, if this was the case, that she may have even set up JB to be molested, because she subconsciously wanted to replay the trauma until it was resolved.

But at the same time, it's a double-edged sword, because at the same time, she didn't want a rival. Carole Lieberman thinks Patsy was torn between two conflicting desires: to make her daughter a success, but not to be eclipsed by her. I liken it to the story of Snow White, when the Magic Mirror breaks the bad news to the Wicked Queen.

But what does lead me toward that oasis (mirage or not) is the knowledge that many mothers of abused children tend to blame the victim. And if JB confided in her mother about it, that could indeed set off a killing rage. Here's what I mean: if she was aware and looking the other way, that was a conscious attempt not to see the problem. That's classic denial: if you don't talk about it, it's not real. My mother told me that. She lived with a alcoholic grandfather. Once the abuse becomes real, that's it. And, in a combination of rage that her world was ending and repressed feelings of sexual rivalry with JB, she lashes out.

Here's a scenario:

"Mommy, I have to tell you something. Daddy..."

"WHAT?! You little liar! That's disgusting," and on and on. And it just spiraled.

Am I making sense to anyone, or have I totally gone off the track at this point?

But back to the original question:

SD, do you think Patsy knew JB was being molested by JR and just kept quiet while at the same time lived through JB vicariously and secretly resented her?

Sharkeyes, until now, I haven't been willing to jump off of that cliff because, at heart, I'm a tender man and I've been willing to give the Rs a break (as much of one as I think is warranted). But now, once I go over this in my head, all I can say is:

LinasK, make room at the bottom of that cliff, because I'm coming down fast!

IOWs, YES! (Until something better comes along at least)

 

[sharkeyes]

Am I making sense to anyone, or have I totally gone off the track at this point?

Makes perfect sense to me!

 

[BBB167893]

I'll be perfectly blunt, sharkeyes. No scenario has yet put all of the puzzle pieces together, even this one. But I realized a long time ago that no case ever fits all of the pieces together. In almost 12 years of studying true crime, I have yet to see a case where it all "clicked" as kosher as a Hollywood flick, not even the OJ case. Anyone looking for an airtight case (I'm talking to YOU, Mrs. Lacy!) had better get used to disappointment, because they're trying to reinvent the wheel.

For me, the scenario you and LinasK outline fits the MOST pieces. I'll settle for that, at least until something better comes along.