The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree? #3

[mimmy03]

Lets say no chloroform was found in the admitted cleaned and aired out trunk, then what what the State used as motive? An FBI guy said the levels were normal, the State went to some unexplored new science and tried to use that as proof. They didn't have her buying the stuff, they had nothing but speculation, and fortunately in this country, thats not enough to kill someone. I wish Casey had done the right thing and avoided all this, but she didn't. jmo

To me the chloroform doesn't even matter. The way the body was disposed, the duct tape, the stench in the car, and the lying to her parents and LE is what convinces me. How Caylee was murdered is irrelevant really.

 

[IfIMay]

Lets say no chloroform was found in the admitted cleaned and aired out trunk, then what what the State used as motive? An FBI guy said the levels were normal, the State went to some unexplored new science and tried to use that as proof. They didn't have her buying the stuff, they had nothing but speculation, and fortunately in this country, thats not enough to kill someone. I wish Casey had done the right thing and avoided all this, but she didn't. jmo

Chloroform would be a method of killing, but not motive. Motive was to be free of responsibility and to get back at her mother who obviously cared more for Caylee than Casey (in her own warped mind anyway).

 

[LambChop]

Why not? her father lies too. The jury instruction regarding witness lying states you may believe all, some, or none of a witness testimony. I doesn't say this just applies to the defendant.

But being a defendent, wouldn't that be obvious that lying or telling the truth would be of benefit to your case. Other than the gas can GA did not give conflicting testimony. GA said Caylee did not drown while he was home on the 16th, it just did not happen. He sounded as if his answer was honest, not like he hemmed and hawed about the gas cans. One of the charges for KC was 4 counts of lying to LE about the whereabouts of her daughter. And yet the jury fixated on a possibility that GA "might" not be telling the truth. On a 1 to 10 scale, 10 being the highest probably of it being a lie, a normal person with common sense would say GA could probably be a 2 where KC would be a 10. Common sense would tell you the only person on trial is KC and the only person who would benefit from the lie would be KC. jmo

 

[Chablis]

Chloroform would be a method of killing, but not motive. Motive was to be free of responsibility and to get back at her mother who obviously cared more for Caylee than Casey (in her own warped mind anyway).

I can believe this for sure, so why didn't the State pursue this route and not a few pictures of one night saying the child died so she could party? Being mad at your overbearing mother is more of a believable motive to me then partying. jmo

 

[mimmy03]

The State does not have to prove motive or "why" she killed her kid, just that she did. You, like many others, are looking for the smoking gun. There are so many ways FCA could have gotten the ingredients to make chloroform and FCA is the one who did the "how to make chloroform" search on the net. We can argue the presence of chloroform in the trunk until we're both blue in the face. That is not the only piece of evidence that should have convicted FCA. Everyone is ignoring the consciousness of guilt evidence, INCLUDING the jury. Read up on consciousness of guilt and tell me that if should not have been included in the jury's decision in this case.

And as common sense tells me, no one in the case of an accident fails to call 911 and dumps their kid in a swamp in garbage bags. I repeat ... NO ONE, especially a loving mom as FCA was testified to be.

The jury that convicted Scott Petersen never had a smoking gun, either but was able to connect the dots and rightfully put him away for good.

And one more thing ... DNA was once a new science and lookie now ... it's used in almost every murder trial. I personally believe in the air sample science ... air is made up of chemical compunds and new compounds can be introduced into the air. Dr. Vass has 15 years of experience in decomposing bodies and the chemicals released into the air from decomposition. Who from the defense can make this claim ?

And any normal human being whose child died by accident would have taken the many opportunities LE presented during questioning to come clean and own up to their child dying accidentally. But instead she made the choice to lie to police and send them on a wild goose chase looking for an imaginary nanny. Anything to turn the investigation away from her. Only guilty people do that.

 

[Baznme]

I guess I just am in the mindset and its easier for me to believe the FBI. Casey is lazy and there were so many more ways to kill her child or make her sleep then making chloroform. I think the jury does think Casey is responsible but the State had to prove it, and they didn't, one search and aired out samples was not proof at all. One day of partying was not enough motive. I too was left with the States closing thinking, thats it? Live and learn I guess. jmo

As stated earlier in the upthread, the FBI did not receive the same sample as Dr. Vass so that would not be a true analogy of their reporting. Had they then switched the samples between themselves and retested, I think the chloroform evidence would have held up. But......always a but, I know.....I don't think it came from anything FCA made, I believe because the chloroform levels (in the carpet) were different according to which part they took the sample from, that Dr. Vass got the section that Caylee's body was in contact with and the FBI did not. That would explain the fluctuations.


I was watching the story of Sandra Cantu the other evening and found out that after administering a drug to make her drowsy, that she (Melissa Huckaby) used plain old "rubbing alcohol" on a rag that displaced all oxygen and held it to her face until her heart stopped beating. I did not know until then that "rubbing alcohol" displaces all oxygen and you can asphyxiate someone that way. My thoughts then ran to this case with that information. It's possible that the chloroform was the byproduct of the decomposition and that's all. Not to diminish the seriousness of its' presence, but maybe looking at the presence of it as a murder weapon is where the biggest error was. Possible something as simple as rubbing alcohol and then duct tape would accomplish the elimination of an unwanted child. I'm leaning toward this act occurring in Caylee's room during naptime, then carried to the car and put into the trunk. The duct tape, I believe went on the next day while the car was backed into the garage.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[logicalgirl]

As stated earlier in the upthread, the FBI did not receive the same sample as Dr. Vass so that would not be a true analogy of their reporting. Had they then switched the samples between themselves and retested, I think the chloroform evidence would have held up. But......always a but, I know.....I don't think it came from anything FCA made, I believe because the chloroform levels (in the carpet) were different according to which part they took the sample from, that Dr. Vass got the section that Caylee's body was in contact with and the FBI did not. That would explain the fluctuations.


I was watching the story of Sandra Cantu the other evening and found out that after administering a drug to make her drowsy, that she (Melissa Huckaby) used plain old "rubbing alcohol" on a rag that displaced all oxygen and held it to her face until her heart stopped beating. I did not know until then that "rubbing alcohol" displaces all oxygen and you can asphyxiate someone that way. My thoughts then ran to this case with that information. It's possible that the chloroform was the byproduct of the decomposition and that's all. Not to diminish the seriousness of its' presence, but maybe looking at the presence of it as a murder weapon is where the biggest error was. Possible something as simple as rubbing alcohol and then duct tape would accomplish the elimination of an unwanted child. I'm leaning toward this act occurring in Caylee's room during naptime, then carried to the car and put into the trunk. The duct tape, I believe went on the next day while the car was backed into the garage.

Just thinking out loud.

Hmm - 24 hours in the heat in Florida - doubt by that time the duct tape would have stuck....

 

[Baznme]

Hmm - 24 hours in the heat in Florida - doubt by that time the duct tape would have stuck....

Could explain why so much duct tape and how it was attached though. Please don't get hung up on a detail such as what I suggested regarding the duct tape. I wanted to bring up the "rubbing alcohol" as a possibility as everyone has it in their home and it's a cheap chemical to access and evaporates completely. Right down her lane, KWIM?

 

[IfIMay]

I can believe this for sure, so why didn't the State pursue this route and not a few pictures of one night saying the child died so she could party? Being mad at your overbearing mother is more of a believable motive to me then partying. jmo

They did. But it would take inference and critical thinking to "get it" I guess. You know putting 2+2 together.

 

[coco puff]

I spoke to a few people who never really followed the case, just got their info from what they read and talked about among others and almost every single one of them came away with the opinion that they think she had something to do with the death of her daughter but the prosecution failed big time in proving it.

Now, I'm not sure where those opinions are coming from (media?) but all of them (like 6-7 people) agreed the prosecution did not fully prove that she did it.

I thought it was interesting on what public perception may be.

I can't even find 6 or 7 people (not on-line) that even watched enough of the trial to know WHAT the state presented. I can't imagine not following the case but committing that much time to watching the whole trial.

 

[margE]

Could explain why so much duct tape and how it was attached though. Please don't get hung up on a detail such as what I suggested regarding the duct tape. I wanted to bring up the "rubbing alcohol" as a possibility as everyone has it in their home and it's a cheap chemical to access and evaporates completely. Right down her lane, KWIM?

Your post is very interesting. I never knew this either about rubbing alcohol.

A few days ago, my teenage daughter had a dentist appointment to recheck a tooth she had a root canal on. He told us he would have to retreat the tooth. And explained, he uses chloroform to do so..hmmm Now I may be slow, but I never knew this. Of course as soon as he told us this, my thoughts went here..and all over the place...

 

[Boytwnmom]

about a drowning...not one...NADA...ZILCH. The only mention of drowning came from the supposedly non-evidentiary Opening Statement. The only TESTIMONY relative to "drowning" was that there was a pool and a ladder and a house with a door. OK then, any child killed and whose remains were concealed until skeletonized, who lived in a house with a pool, assuming the hosue has a door to walk out to the pool, can and should be considered to have drowned.

There was just as much EVIDENCE that Laci Peterosn drowned. After all she washed up on shore. Maybe she went for a swim. No cause of death could be shown nor time of death nor location of death. So, yeah, the jury could decide she probably drowned. The only difference was in that case there was a jury with common sense and the fortitude to perform their solemn duty.

Absurdity breeds absurdity...

But being a defendent, wouldn't that be obvious that lying or telling the truth would be of benefit to your case. Other than the gas can GA did not give conflicting testimony. GA said Caylee did not drown while he was home on the 16th, it just did not happen. He sounded as if his answer was honest, not like he hemmed and hawed about the gas cans. One of the charges for KC was 4 counts of lying to LE about the whereabouts of her daughter. And yet the jury fixated on a possibility that GA "might" not be telling the truth. On a 1 to 10 scale, 10 being the highest probably of it being a lie, a normal person with common sense would say GA could probably be a 2 where KC would be a 10. Common sense would tell you the only person on trial is KC and the only person who would benefit from the lie would be KC. jmo

 

[Chablis]

Could explain why so much duct tape and how it was attached though. Please don't get hung up on a detail such as what I suggested regarding the duct tape. I wanted to bring up the "rubbing alcohol" as a possibility as everyone has it in their home and it's a cheap chemical to access and evaporates completely. Right down her lane, KWIM?

Wouldnt holding a pillow over the childs head, smothering them do the same thing as well?

 

[logicalgirl]

Could explain why so much duct tape and how it was attached though. Please don't get hung up on a detail such as what I suggested regarding the duct tape. I wanted to bring up the "rubbing alcohol" as a possibility as everyone has it in their home and it's a cheap chemical to access and evaporates completely. Right down her lane, KWIM?

Oh yeah, the chloroform was something I was never much hung up on - would have been just as easy to hold a pillow over her until she passed out, then tape up her face to make sure. But I definitely did not know that about rubbing alcohol, just that if you drink very much of it - it will surely kill you. And it is a great theory. Bet that one would have popped up on an internet search also.

Which does not mean I discredit Dr. Vass - I loved him and his work. And I feel very sure his sniffer will be part of routine csi material in five years down the road, now it has passed a Frye hearing.

 

[Chablis]

They did. But it would take inference and critical thinking to "get it" I guess. You know putting 2+2 together.

I will never get why the State did not use that fight and proof that Casey stole from her grandparents, and the next day the child is never seen? Way better theory than killing to party, I think a jury would have seen this a lot different had this been presented. jmo

 

[IfIMay]

Oh yeah, the chloroform was something I was never much hung up on - would have been just as easy to hold a pillow over her until she passed out, then tape up her face to make sure. But I definitely did not know that about rubbing alcohol, just that if you drink very much of it - it will surely kill you. And it is a great theory. Bet that one would have popped up on an internet search also.

Which does not mean I discredit Dr. Vass - I loved him and his work. And I feel very sure his sniffer will be part of routine csi material in five years down the road, now it has passed a Frye hearing.

I think I choose to believe the chloroform because:

1. I believe Dr. Vass.
2. It would be a much easier way to die for Caylee than the alternatives. Poor Caylee.. looking up into that face o' fisties while her egg donor smothers her... ::shudders::

 

[IfIMay]

I will never get why the State did not use that fight and proof that Casey stole from her grandparents, and the next day the child is never seen? Way better theory than killing to party, I think a jury would have seen this a lot different had this been presented. jmo

Because they believe in the LAW.. no one would testify to it truthfully. Lee telling Jessie that CA told him is hearsay.

 

[Baznme]

I think I choose to believe the chloroform because:

1. I believe Dr. Vass.
2. It would be a much easier way to die for Caylee than the alternatives. Poor Caylee.. looking up into that face o' fisties while her egg donor smothers her... ::shudders::

Oh yeah, the chloroform was something I was never much hung up on - would have been just as easy to hold a pillow over her until she passed out, then tape up her face to make sure. But I definitely did not know that about rubbing alcohol, just that if you drink very much of it - it will surely kill you. And it is a great theory. Bet that one would have popped up on an internet search also.

Which does not mean I discredit Dr. Vass - I loved him and his work. And I feel very sure his sniffer will be part of routine csi material in five years down the road, now it has passed a Frye hearing.

I must not have worded my post very well so I will attempt to say this a different way. I too, believe in Dr. Vass's work and testimony but, I think his findings of chloroform came from Caylee's body in the trunk. Not the use of chloroform ON Caylee, thus the reason the levels were higher on one sample than the one the FBI received to test. I'm thinking suffocation was cause of death but, how? Not an "accident" but deliberate suffocation. Drowning or was an agent used?

 

[pcrum12]

I see, so the theory is that although FKC is a habitual liar and lies even when it isn't necessary, and in her own words is a great liar, in these two instances, the drowning and the abuse - these two times she told the truth? What are the chances of that?

Everyone was lying but FKC? FKC who received four guilty sentences for lying? :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

Of course she lied. She admitted lying. However, it doesn't mean she did in fact lie about everything. Should we assume since GA and CA lied about some things they absolutely lied about everything?:

from GA depo

pg 146
Night of the 15th. Caylee was in bed for sure..doesn't recall Casey being there... up til 12:30 or 1 but doesn't recall Casey coming home.

page 150
Morning of the 16th. Normal day. Caylee up 7:30-8. She seen Cindy before she left (although Cindy says she did not, she just heard them breathing through the door). Casey got up LATER.

pg 158-159
the whole "I didn't put tape on there" crap.

pg 179
says Caylee was wearing black...but then changes it to pink

pg 184
Afternoon of the 16th. After Caylee and Casey left at 12:50, stated he had no contact by phone, message, in person, with them at least a few days or up to a week had a brief cell phone conversation. When in fact he called Casey at 3:03 on the 16th. Why did he call? Why didn't he just say he called?

pg 194
Afternoon of the 24th. States "by the time I got to the end of the car right where the passenger taillight is, she opened the trunk and says here's your f'in gas cans." You think he didn't look inside the trunk?

pg 196
the 24th. He states "Most definitely did not have duct tape on it. I'm positive" Which is it George?

I could go on and on but I'm sure you get the picture.

 

[Chablis]

Because they believe in the LAW.. no one would testify to it truthfully. Lee telling Jessie that CA told him is hearsay.

Ok, but what about the money she stole from her grandfather? Do you really think they could not get that and show that and then ask Cindy if she approached Casey, because they asked Cindy all sorts of stuff, even insinuating incest between her kids. The State could have presented this, the last few hours the child was alive, and things maybe could have been different.

jmo