The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree?

[RR0004]

My what GREAT postings above here!

Still I believe we can agree that prosecution did not play to the jury with there technical witnesses. Too much technical information helped get OJ off. And sadly JA and gang did not learn that important lesson. Jurors are not there to get a PhD well doing jury duty.IMO

But if they don't understand, they d@mn well should ask for clarification. Lack of knowledge or confusion should NOT be an excuse for an acquittal.

 

[RR0004]

Doctor Vass is a brilliant man who is highly regarded by his peers. Actually, as far as peers go, I doubt if anyone comes close to what he knows and has accomplished in the field of forensics. I believe his credentials are impeccable, and it was quite clear from the getgo that JB was unable to comprehend much of what was carefully explained by Dr. Vass. One way to determine the value of an expert witness who is on the stand is to observe how the opposing side reacts. JB tried to prevent that testimony, he was extremely worried that the smell of decomp from those tests would put the needle in FCA. JB was famous for uttering quantify and qualify to invalidate the results of the tests by Dr. Vass. JB's childish insults were derogatory but definitely heard by the jury.

Plus...keep him on the stand forever and a day in hopes that the jury will do exactly what they did- shut down. I'm not sure if the jurists didn't have the wherewithal to comprehend his testimony, but if they couldn't, they owed it to the Court to re-read and ask questions until they got it.

 

[gngr~snap]

I thinkit was because the experts on each side cancelled each other out.
CA impeached herself s did Lee.
It was George and Cindy's car that CA called in stolen...
It's their that they want returned to them.
It was THEIR car.
except for 11 days... it was Casey's car.
The car that her parents had keys to
EVEN GA put KC in her mother's car leabing hers with him.
WHY? he lied
That ran out of gas 3 times in 7 days.-
where was it driven? what caused it to run out of gas
like that? obviously KC was driving it but cell pings prove it was not far.
TL said it sat in the parking lot at his Apts.
They drove his truck everywhere when together.
Gas gauge wasn't broken.
yet it ran out of gas the 20th the 23rd and the 27th.
GA even said it was empty when he picked it up.
CSI Caylee duct taped lying in it with her eyes closed,
that Google Earth just happened to snap while
GA opened the trun to get the cans.

people can't think for themselves anymore.
it's true.
*see attached

 

[beccalecca1]

When LE got to the house, the car was in the garage. He could smell the decomp in the house according to his first LE interview. The 5 hours of airing was before that?

LE didn't arrive to the house until around 9-10pm. (Actually, IIRC, LE arrived right after GA got home from work... and wasn't that 10:30pm?)

 

[beccalecca1]

Doctor Vass is a brilliant man who is highly regarded by his peers. Actually, as far as peers go, I doubt if anyone comes close to what he knows and has accomplished in the field of forensics. I believe his credentials are impeccable, and it was quite clear from the getgo that JB was unable to comprehend much of what was carefully explained by Dr. Vass. One way to determine the value of an expert witness who is on the stand is to observe how the opposing side reacts. JB tried to prevent that testimony, he was extremely worried that the smell of decomp from those tests would put the needle in FCA. JB was famous for uttering quantify and qualify to invalidate the results of the tests by Dr. Vass. JB's childish insults were derogatory but definitely heard by the jury.

BBM


In all honestly, I wouldn't want a witness like that. I would want a witness that even the person with the lowest IQ can comprehend.

 

[beccalecca1]

But if they don't understand, they d@mn well should ask for clarification. Lack of knowledge or confusion should NOT be an excuse for an acquittal.

I just have to ask, but who are the jurors suppose to ask for clarification? They can't stop trial and ask the experts. They can't ask the judge, etc. They can only go off of the information provided to them.

 

[Baznme]

I just have to ask, but who are the jurors suppose to ask for clarification? They can't stop trial and ask the experts. They can't ask the judge, etc. They can only go off of the information provided to them.

Once they go into deliberation, they can ask as many questions as they either want or need to. That didn't seem to happen.

 

[Baznme]

BBM


In all honestly, I wouldn't want a witness like that. I would want a witness that even the person with the lowest IQ can comprehend.

I don't think if was a question of how high or low your IQ was. It was JB that was the problem. He didn't understand qualitative versus quantitative. Probably due to his personal studies of DNA, I don't know. Seemed JB's questionning of Dr. Vass's work was what made the testimony so labor intensive. It was frustrating to watch.

 

[sacrablue]

Once they go into deliberation, they can ask as many questions as they either want or need to. That didn't seem to happen.

Good point. If I was on jury here are a list of things I wanted additional information on that got trashed by Baez smoke screens.

I want to understand Dr. Voss and chloroform study work.

I would like more information about conversations the day Casey and Caylee left together June 16.

What is if any importance in Baez pet gas tank.

I want to see grave site pictures brfore pick up esp. skull to see duct tape.

I want this lifting bone bag up 4 feet by what his name made clear.

Did anyone really know if Pontiac had no fuel at dump site.

I want to see film of Casey and TL at Blockbuster.

DNA evidence on duct tape was butchered by Baez..clear that up.

List all the different ways Caylee died according to Baez/Mason fantasy team.

I want to see evidence: smell cans, shovel, Pontiac, grave site, garage and pool (ladder), back yard, duct tape, skull plus all pics, so on....

 

[Sustained]

BBM
In all honestly, I wouldn't want a witness like that. I would want a witness that even the person with the lowest IQ can comprehend.

No offense, but maybe the State should have called Barney the dinosaur to explain the chloroform evidence. I would want a jury composed of intelligent people that would take the time to understand and digest the evidence, even the more complicated stuff. I don't have a PhD in Chemistry, but I was able to follow along with Dr. Vass' testimony. IMO, people that are of below average intelligence should not be allowed to sit on juries.

 

[Baznme]

Beccalecca1 brings up a good point though. Seems beginning in 2008, it was accepted practice to allow jurors to ask questions via the judge in the State of Florida, although it's at the discretion of a particular judge presiding over a particular case. See link: (Hope it's an OK link to refer to).

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/111208/met_354966268.shtml

I wonder if that was the case to allow or not allow questions DURING TRIAL under HHJP?

 

[treeseeker]

There were many very smart people, right here on WS, who had serious doubts about the chloroform evidence before trial. There are two or three threads dedicated to chloroform discussion. I believed there was chloroform, primarily because of Dr. Vass' and the FBI's reports. It did not bear out in the courtroom.

 

[LinTX]

Yes, this was quoted as ppm so would need to double check this amount shown above. Remember 900 ppm will make you dizzy if inhaled. I was wrong, well not wrong but there is more. 900 ppm makes you dizzy but to knock you out for anesthetic value the concentration levels must reach 1,500 to 20,000 ppm. Anything over 40,000 ppm could kill a human.

I'm a little confused about what questions are being raised, but maybe this will help this discussion. This was from Dr. Vass' forensic report:

... the Florida trunk sample had an amount of chloroform present which was in the low parts per million range. Typical concentrations seen during human decompositional events of adults yields amounts in the low parts per trillion range.

So at the time he tested, if I'm reading this correctly, the levels were low compared to what levels it takes to make you dizzy or knock you out, but 'over the top' as compared to what is a normal range for decomp, and as compared to his junk yard control sample of carpet.

As for what the jury should have done, IMO that would be to look at the evidence that was available to them or ask the judge for clarification. They had access to the evidence, with the exception of the can that JA tried to allow them to smell, and could have asked for transcriptions of testimony. I don't have a degree in science either, but I do know how to search whatever info is available to me and to ask questions. This jury's questions were evidently restricted to 'what's for lunch?'

 

[sacrablue]

I'm a little confused about what questions are being raised, but maybe this will help this discussion. This was from Dr. Vass' forensic report:


So at the time he tested, if I'm reading this correctly, the levels were low compared to what levels it takes to make you dizzy or knock you out, but 'over the top' as compared to what is a normal range for decomp, and as compared to his junk yard control sample of carpet.

As for what the jury should have done, IMO that would be to look at the evidence that was available to them or ask the judge for clarification. They had access to the evidence, with the exception of the can that JA tried to allow them to smell, and could have asked for transcriptions of testimony. I don't have a degree in science either, but I do know how to search whatever info is available to me and to ask questions. This jury's questions were evidently restricted to 'what's for lunch?'

Exactly, one thread mentioned 8,000- 10,000 ppm, a Dr. Vass report I believe. And I have heard much lower amounts found. It should be easy to sit down and look at reports. Ashton at times got side tracked from the clear goal dealing with constant worthless info coming from Baez. That is why it is so important to review all the honest information after the battles in court. Lunch and movie selection took high priority as well.

 

[beccalecca1]

I'm a little confused about what questions are being raised, but maybe this will help this discussion. This was from Dr. Vass' forensic report:


So at the time he tested, if I'm reading this correctly, the levels were low compared to what levels it takes to make you dizzy or knock you out, but 'over the top' as compared to what is a normal range for decomp, and as compared to his junk yard control sample of carpet.

As for what the jury should have done, IMO that would be to look at the evidence that was available to them or ask the judge for clarification. They had access to the evidence, with the exception of the can that JA tried to allow them to smell, and could have asked for transcriptions of testimony. I don't have a degree in science either, but I do know how to search whatever info is available to me and to ask questions. This jury's questions were evidently restricted to 'what's for lunch?'

The jury did not have access to information on how many ppm would affect a person. At least I don't recall that testimony. So, in essence, they couldn't find out a lot of the things that were being discussed here.

 

[LinTX]

Exactly, one thread mentioned 8,000- 10,000 ppm, a Dr. Vass report I believe. And I have heard much lower amounts found. It should be easy to sit down and look at reports. Ashton at times got side tracked from the clear goal dealing with constant worthless info coming from Baez. That is why it is so important to review all the honest information after the battles in court. Lunch and movie selection took high priority as well.

OK, I think I understand the questions...that 8,000-10,000ppm figure came from that chart beccalecca posted showing levels and effects, not from anything in the trial.

 

[beccalecca1]

Chloroform is heavier than air and may cause asphyxiation in enclosed, poorly ventilated, or low-lying areas.

http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/rma/resourcenotebook/Chemicals/chloroform.pdf

I'm not a chemist, but if indeed chloroform is heavier than air, it would not rise out of the trunk when SB opened it or when CA cleaned the car with Febreze. Chloroform apparently smells "sweet" and I don't remember any testimony from SB/CA about what they smelled in the trunk, other than the decomp. And IMO, it is possible that the decomp smell was so overwhelming, it masked the smell of the chloroform.

OK, I think I understand the questions...that 8,000-10,000ppm figure came from that chart beccalecca posted showing levels and effects, not from anything in the trial.

Lets give credit where credit is due. Not my chart, it was already posted.

 

[LinTX]

The jury did not have access to information on how many ppm would affect a person. At least I don't recall that testimony. So, in essence, they couldn't find out a lot of the things that were being discussed here.

No, they may not have been able get an answer to that specific question, but they could have found out normal levels vs what was in the carpet. It's possible your question might have brought up some doubts in deliberation, but that's why so many of us are disgusted with this jury. There should have been discussions weighing evidence presented, but from what we've heard the jury was stuck on GA, and how much they liked JB.

 

[Sustained]

Lets give credit where credit is due. Not my chart, it was already posted.

The article I posted says that chloroform is a known carcinogen and I believe that fact is not disputed. We all know FCA was very computer savvy and did research on chloroform. Assuming she did use chloroform to put Caylee to sleep, I cannot believe she is anything but pure evil. Who would administer chloroform to one own's daughter knowing full well that it may cause cancer down the road ? Even if the chloroform dose was not enough to kill Caylee ? She is what everyone described as a "good and loving" mom ????

 

[beccalecca1]

Here's a link to Vass' report since we're talking about it. I was looking for some sort of amount listed in regards to the chloroform, but the only thing I see is the words "unusually high amount".

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20320944/detail.html