The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[swedie]

It is more easily explained by the fact that there was a 28 yr old man there who apparently liked to have sex in his car.

The drug debt theory is not prevalent at all in this case. Not in the courtroom anyway. The defense couldn't prove a thing about it. Not one piece of evidence to sustain any minute part of it.

Witnesses from his past were only allowed to testify about driving around with MR in the area of the crime with a brief synopsis of their relationship to him. No one was permitted to testify about anything regarding his character and what they actually thought of him. And not one member of his family testified to it either. Because they didn't want to open up that door. Why?

He has no adult criminal record. That I will agree to. Doesn't mean anything because he was obviously leading a very criminal life.

MOO

Lack of sperm/semen found in MR's car could likely be because of the fact condoms were found in his car and also the multiple cleaning jobs done on the interior. It was stated MR was somewhat obsessed about cleaning his car at one time. I could see MR using a condom while raping Tori to cover evidence. It's possible the blood and sperm found on the door moulding came from when MR took off the condom, dripping that minuscule amount of Tori's blood and his sperm from the condom. This whole case makes me so sick to think what sick minds these two had and they just happened to have found each other. MR being the one to hunt down TLM. He knew he found his prize in her. MOO

BTW RW had no criminal record either, nor did PB. Seems they got away with a lot of criminal activities before being caught. Will be interesting to find out all about MR once the jurors start their deliberation. I'm surprised nothing has been mentioned about what if anything was found on MR's laptop. Maybe he had the hard drive replaced shortly before LE confiscated it. Even if he erased information, technology forensics would still be able to find information in allocated spaces on the hard drive. MOO

 

[Heliotrope]

I couldn't agree more. No matter how I turn the story it just doesn't make any sence. To me the most confusing things are the stops they made on their road trip. Tim Hortons? Really? Everybody knows what kind of a busy place that is. With a kidnapped child in the car? Who else would take that risk? Was it really a planned murder? If planned would you not have the weapon already?
I don't believe in the drug dept theory because TLM and MTR didn't win anything. At least we don't know.... did they receive money, drugs or whatever? As long as we don't know that this drug dept theory doesn't make any sence to me. Lord this case is a mystery. Of course only moo.

Yody,
As for parking at a busy Tim Hortons, take another look at the Home Depot parking lot video, and I think you'll see how he could have done it.

They pulled into the HD parking lot, parked in the row way over by the gas station next door. He went in and got the money. They drove probably only 30 or 40 feet closer to HD and parked relatively far from the door in the 2nd furthest aisle. He didn't drop her at the door or try to find a closer spot.

When she came back out, he drove to meet her and popped the trunk [without any prompting, mind - he knew what was in the bag IMO, didn't want to spook the poor lamb to the slaughter].

He stayed on the periphery, just like at the school, where he likely drove by them while they were walking and parked about 3-400 m away at the nursing home parking lot.

 

[thisgirl]

I don't think it was sexual..............but MR could easily have been involved iin the abduction.......thinking it would be resolved.........he might gain a little cash out of the deal.......and no one is the wiser.

That would explain everything except the sperm cells in that one spot of blood on the molding.

Was it there before? Did they move so much blood and stuff around when washing the inside that they spread it there? Did MR actually assault TS?

Don't know really..................

But I really believe we have not heard all the story.

All someone has to do is look at events over the past year or so.........and wonder if some people ever tell the truth.

RS does..............and he is busting to find out what really happened as well.

JMO...........

you think. i think. we all think. which creates so many theories, totally agree we have not heard all the story & yet the one person who could have at least attempted to try chose not to. why?

 

[Bravo]

Doea anyone know if after everything is said and done, is the jury offered the opportunity to seek out therapy funded by our government? I find much of what we have heard quite disturbing (especially TLM's testimony; I had a nightmare after hearing it) now add visuals such as the autopsy pictures, I could imagine it could be quite traumatizing to the jury. So I am wondering if they assist them in dealing with any post traumatic stress after such cases.

I would hope so. I know it was offered In the Bernardo Trial and offered to Reporters as well. The Reporters may have been offered Counselling thru their respective Companies and not the Courts.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

<modsnip>

I don't see anyone bashing MR's family, they are just wondering why they are not in court supporting their son, and I don't think it's ONLY because they work. I think perhaps they just want to avoid the media and no doubt people who would not make the difference between the accused and the accused's family. Personally, I feel sorry for his family, it's not easy dealing with what they are dealing with, and I know this from experience.

I'm sure the reason CM moved away was because she was probably being hounded by people who can't see the difference between the accused and the members of her family.

As for TS's family, it's not really fair to make statements that they can attend the trial because they are unemployed. They are being bunched together as if all of them aren't working. I'm sure some of them have jobs.

 

[Heliotrope]

I too, have followed this case from the minute the breaking news came on my tv on April 9th, 2009, the day after Tori was taken. I have read much of these posts as well, though I have never posted. This case has pretty much taken over my life for the past three years, as im sure it has with most of you as well. I have travelled from Toronto to London three times thus far, to watch justice for Victoria first hand. I can say that a lot of what is said in that courtroom, is not neccisarily reported by the media. They are scrambling to jot down everything that is being said, and I believe they report the main points rather then every little detail. Rafferty sits in the prisoners box along the right side of the courtroom. There was discussion previous to his trial as to whether he would be able to sit with his lawyers as you mentioned, but was denied. His lawyers occasionally walk over to the box to speak with him, thats about it.

IMHO, I do believe TS knew TLM by passing.... they lived right around the corner from each other. It would have made TS feel that much more comfortable walking away with TLM. I know "of" people, not necisarrily "KNOW" them, and I see them around with their children, friends of friends have talked about them, etc. I find it very hard to believe that TLM knew both TM and JG but didnt know who their children were. Again, JMO. But I dont think TS was chosen over a drug debt.. JMO... Maybe TS did see TLM with her dog... Maybe when MTR told TLM to talk about candy or DOGS, TS came into TLMs mind? TLM also knew TM and JG's history... maybe she thought TS was an easy target, and already knew she loved dogs.. and knew TS would have a better chance walking away with her then a random child? JMO...


Sorry for the long post, Ive been reading for so long and never had the courage to say my own opinions.

Thanks for posting. I think your post makes perfect sense.

You shouldn't be at all afraid to post here - there's some passionate difference of opinion, but if you compare it to the comments thread on any mainstream media site, this place is a stellar example of civility and self-control.

I was toying with the idea of going down if we get to the sentencing phase. Imagine if 100,000 people lined the route and collectively gave his car the 'stink eye'. I know they have to ensure his physical safety, but I think Canadians would be less disenfranchised with the justice system if we had a means of expressing contempt for the people we most hold in contempt.

I have a lot of admiration for how Norwegians sang en masse (40,000) a folk song that Breivik found particularly offensive - it was like giving him a collective middle finger, good over evil.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/apr/26/thousands-sing-song-breivik-despises-video

 

[tmhco]

I just read this passage from the star article and never caught it before.

"I kept having flashbacks. Sometimes it was like I wasn&#8217;t even there. I realized I needed to do something so I turned back to the vehicle and . . . when I saw what was going on, all I saw was myself when I was that age and all the anger and hate and rage that I&#8217;d had and blame that I still feel towards myself came boiling up out of me.&#8221;

"and blame I feel towards myself"

My mother was abused as a child. I never understood her pain until I read the book, "When Rabbit Howls" The victim in the book could never get over the shame she felt. The shame of seeking out the inappropriate attention because neglected children will seek out any attention they can get.

This may have been discussed before and I apologize as I just put it together. Interesting JMO

 

[Bravo]

I feel for MJR's Family. They are victims too and may be far more that we will ever know. Perhaps they moved on to accepting what MJR had done. From the size of the Courtroom i think it best they not attend.

 

[crazyladi]

I just read this passage from the star article and never caught it before.

"I kept having flashbacks. Sometimes it was like I wasn’t even there. I realized I needed to do something so I turned back to the vehicle and . . . when I saw what was going on, all I saw was myself when I was that age and all the anger and hate and rage that I’d had and blame that I still feel towards myself came boiling up out of me.”

"and blame I feel towards myself"

My mother was abused as a child. I never understood her pain until I read the book, "When Rabbit Howls" The victim in the book could never get over the shame she felt. The shame of seeking out the inappropriate attention because neglected children will seek out any attention they can get.
This may have been discussed before and I apologize as I just put it together. Interesting JMO

It is interesting. Did someone say this or is this from a book?

 

[tmhco]

It is interesting. Did someone say this or is this from a book?

Sorry, that was a quote from TLM's testimony.

 

[Heliotrope]

Why consider the selling of a home? It won't buy better defence or sway the jury by sitting there in court all day/every day? JMO

An analogy to consider could be going to church. Do you have to go every Sunday to the building to support and respect? No. JMO

Agree 100% on church... but for the other part.

It's the same reason I wouldn't drop a family member off at the hospital door to get their biopsy results, and then drive around for half an hour to save $10 on parking. Sometimes you just have to be there, just like Tori's family had to be there for everything, autopsy photos, everything.

Solidarity.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Agree 100% on church... but for the other part.

It's the same reason I wouldn't drop a family member off at the hospital door to get their biopsy results, and then drive around for half an hour to save $10 on parking. Sometimes you just have to be there, just like Tori's family had to be there for everything, autopsy photos, everything.

Solidarity.

It's also a type of healing for them, to be there for their little girl who died alone... they weren't there with her when she died, when TS needed them most, they need to be there for her now even if it hurts them.

 

[crazyladi]

Sorry, that was a quote from TLM's testimony.

Really? Man I need to keep notes

 

[Bravo]

I thought Defense was up tomorrow. Crown Monday?????

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I thought Defense was up tomorrow. Crown Monday?????

No, Crown is tuesday, charge to jury on wednesday, so defense on Monday. Tomorrow if for more legal issues.

 

[Bravo]

No, Crown is tuesday, charge to jury on wednesday, so defense on Monday. Tomorrow if for more legal issues.

Oh Man!!!!!! Thanks

 

[Salem]

I don&#8217;t know what to believe. For me this case has too many alternative theories to know without reasonable doubt one way or the other.

What would those theories be?

To me, it seems there is the Crown's theory. In rebuttal, we have:

1. TLM went into the school, therefore she targeted Tori and MR knew nothing - he just drove them to get drugs, to the HD for supplies, to the deserted lane so he could turn his phone off and take a walk before coming back and helping to hide Tori's body.
2. TLM targeted Tori because of a bad drug deal, and MR, the other drug addict and possible dealer, just drove them to get drugs, to the HD for supplies, to the deserted lane so he could turn his phone off and take a walk before coming back and helping to hide Tori's body.
3. MR wasn't there - only his lawyer put him there, so that doesn't quite work.
4. MR was deathly afraid of TLM and after helping her hide Tori's body, he went into hiding to get away from all TLM's gang friends and bought her some hair dye so she wouldn't be mad at him, and lied to the police and tried to spin a story that made it look like it was all Tara's fault, because he knew of her from the bar because she did drugs and he was one of the good guys.
5. Umm.... I don't think I can come up with a 5. Anyone else?

The thing is, for me anyway, all these theories don't hold any water when stacked up against the evidence. While possible, it is highly improbable to my mind that any of those theories are true.

When looking at the evidence as a WHOLE and not just piece by piece, the other scenarios just don't work.

Salem

 

[Heliotrope]

Respect to your opinion must definitely.

Nobody had to sell me anything...I just simply wouldn't buy into any theory that TLM, who was an IV drug addict, had little education, was raised by a guardian who was of the worst kind, had the intelligence to scheme to create a crime scene that made it appear Tori was taken for a sexual assault...AND crossed her fingers that 103 days would lapse so that the crime scene would be too decomposed for DNA analysis.

I wouldn't have thought of that theory if I lived for another 100 years!

Yup.

I had the misfortune to be the supervisor of a full-blown addict, not oxy but cocaine / meth. That does not make me an expert by any means, but here's what I observed:

- his non-payment to his dealer resulted in facial bruising and, ultimately, payment
- said facial bruising and lack of funds resulted in bold-faced lies to friends, supervisors, everyone
- the lies including making up illnesses of his children so that coworkers would raise funds for treatment, funds that would be directed to drug dealer

BUT, and it's a big but, although he was an accomplished liar - he could look you in the eye and lie - his lies were ridiculous and could be seen through in an instant as soon we were on to him. He could only see as far as his next fix.

Sophisticated entrapment theories, frameups. If she was that smart, she probably would have made something of her life, such that it was. Removing pants so it would look like a rape - like a lot of conspiracy theories, I think that's giving way too much credit.

Most people that are actually part of organizations that are often accused of conspiracy theories - gov't, military, intelligence, etc - would laugh and say, no way are we competent enough to pull that off.

Cunning liar, absolutely. Criminal mastermind? I personally doubt it, or we would be sitting here talking about her trial.

 

[brighidin]

What is up with this site the last couple of days??? Its crazy. I cant seem to get on and when I do my post is doubled or tripled.

Anywho glad I am back on I was get WS withdrawal lol

I have been having issues as well. Maybe it is the servers or something (I really know next to nothing about computers lol).

Also, welcome to our new members!

 

[Salem]

No, Crown is tuesday, charge to jury on wednesday, so defense on Monday. Tomorrow if for more legal issues.

I felt fairly certain that this would happen. Strategically speaking, the Defense was at a great disadvantage giving a closing on Friday to be followed by the Crown on Monday. The jury would have had the entire weekend to think about what he said (which may have been a good thing) only to have it all blasted apart by the Crown on Monday. Deliberations on Tuesday and the jury would have been thinking only of the Crown's closing, I think.

Much better to have them go back to back without that delay in between. Not much better for the Crown, but better for the defense and for the jury, I think.

I'm not worried because I think this jury will come to a good decision. If they don't find MR guilty, it will be because they have a lot more evidence than we have seen, and I don't think that is true.

Salem