The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[Bravo]

Or Tori was hidden in the back. I still think these two injected Tori with something to make her pass out. She would have been screeming if they didn't and would have been visible to others.

It does make sense that Tori was sedated. Especially with what these two had planned for her. We all hope she was.

 

[Thinkzerz]

With one of MR POF girls. She said that MR said if the women in the white coat walked in her would tackle her to the ground or something along those lines. He did nothing to help Tori and to me that would be because is was involved in hurting TS. JMO

 

[roseofsharon]

Motive has been discussed quite a bit and that this was a sexually motivated crime. I totally agree and IMO, I think it goes even further than that.

The one thing that really motivates MR is $$$.

He found a very troubled, angry young girl to prey upon, who thought he was her world and she assisted him with a venture that was going to make him lots of $$$, however, the scheme was foiled once TLM was brought in by LE on another matter.

IMO, this is the reason for the overkill.

It's a sick sick world!!!! Just MOO!

 

[Heliotrope]

Crown attorney Brian Crockett said he wanted to address "some of the speculation that's been out in the community," and asked if McDonald owed anyone drug money at the time or had received a ransom call. She said no, but that Goris had ripped 20 or 30 OxyContin pills off someone, worth about $400.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...rd-investigation-141756933.html?device=mobile

Thanks, but I should have been clearer. I meant evidence that the $400 ripoff had anything to do with TLM, MTR, CM or anyone TLM might have been associated with.

Derstine had her on the stand, the fact that there was a bad drug transaction was put on the record by the crown, but I don't recall him asking her a single question about it. Has it been established that TLM or MTR or CM or any of the players were anything other than users?

I think we made some assumptions when we heard about the cash in his car, but we've since heard evidence that the money may have come from the escort.

 

[roseofsharon]

IMO, MR was not only a drug addict, he was a sex addict and he was involved in criminal activity.

IMO, MR was so stoned, he required more stimulation to keep him at the level of high he wanted to be, both with drugs and with sex, so he continually up'd the ante to get to that place.

Once a criminal gets away with something a few times, they take things a step farther wanting more and more and will stop at nothing to get it.

MOO

 

[brighidin]

Or Tori was hidden in the back. I still think these two injected Tori with something to make her pass out. She would have been screeming if they didn't and would have been visible to others.

Possible. Maybe they told her to stay still and be quiet or they would kill her. Maybe they told her that if she stayed down, she would get to go home.

If i was 8 and someone took me, I would do what they said because I would be scared and want to go home.

 

[tmhco]

If, hypothectically, she did reveal that taking Tori was not random, than she would have to reveal why she purposely went to the school to take a child, which would mean there was a plan for that days events, which would in turn bring out the real motif. Saying it was a dare eliminates all motif and directly covers all evidence that would be revealed such as MR raping her. IMO he did rape her but not because he is a child molestor but because he had to (sorry, it's aweful...break her in) whether he was going to pimp her, deliver her, I don't really know. A dare is far fetched and makes no sense, theres no prior evidence to him ever raping a child even though he was around plenty of them, he was very money driven as we all saw, he stated Tori was given to him as a gift, IMO which means he didn't have to go take her himself, it all leads back to motif, criminals do not commit crimes for no reason and it's been studied that most criminals habitually repeat the crime and do it the same way over and over. He was a pimp with adults, now with children. He did in fact, try to sleep with every girl he first met right away?

That is quite possible. Here is what I think. MR harboured a secret fantasy to be with a little girl. The subject is so taboo that he never acts on it. Enter TLM. She is a junkie, has a lengthy criminal record and is prone to violence. Not the typical POF conquest. They immediately become intimate, he realizes that she has low moral character and that she is completely infatuated with him. With this knowledge he feels comfortable sharing his fantasy. The rest is history.

I see no reason on earth, drug debt, gang initiations or revenge that would involve an 8 year old child. There is only one reason, other than custodial issues, that anyone would abduct a young girl.

TLM may have known who VS was but that has no bearing on why she took her. JMO

 

[Oldsoul2]

yep and my husband would probably be doing yardwork in a t shirt with a long sleeve shirt under it...veritable fashion plate! And don't get me started on the socks with sandals! MOO

Ha ha!!! I hate that look too and yet men seem to find nothing wrong with it LOL

 

[Sillybilly]

Yesterday's testimony was a huge waste, imo. I don't fault the poor lady.

Whether Tori knew TLM or not is irrelevant. Whether TLM went inside the school to stalk victims is irrelevant.

Tori could've been playing at a park or playing in the schoolyard and she would've still been a victim.

Wasted day and one less day closer to justice.

IMO, it wasn't a wasted day at all n/t ... i believe the witness's testimony was shakey at best, and the jury will be very cognizant of just how little the defence has in support of any "suggestions" they may make in closing.

JMO

 

[~n/t~]

If the jurors accept the grandmother’s testimony that the woman in the white jacket she first noticed was Ms. McClintic and that she actually went into the school, it might add some slight weight to Mr. Derstine’s vaguely spelled out theory that Tori was targeted by McClintic.

But the lawyer’s suggestions to Ms. McClintic — and his suggested theory of the crime for that matter — remain just that.

McClintic adamantly disagreed with the suggestions, and didn’t, in the language of the courts, “adopt” them as her own.

That means the suggestions, and the suggested theory of what happened, can’t be considered evidence.

The grandmother’s testimony, both in chief and in gentle cross-examination by prosecutor Michael Carnegie — he suggested that perhaps her vivid memory of the woman was a function of having seen the infamous security video which was played so often in public when Tori was still missing — lasted about an hour.

Mr. Derstine later read in the agreed statement of facts, that on April 8, 2009, there were 326 students at the little girl’s school.

As for Mr. Rafferty, he was in the prisoner’s box as he has been throughout — a solid, blocky, unreadable fellow in a three-piece suit.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...-takes-last-shot-at-raising-reasonable-doubt/

 

[Salem]

It is sad but I AM and always was confident my children would make the right decision in these circumstances. There are parents out there that are sure of their children and reactions to situations. I find this scenario lends itself to once again Tori knowing TLM. There was a comfort level and not a sense of stranger danger. MOO

I highly recommend watching "My Child Would Never Do That" on NBC's Dateline. Astounding how many children do the opposite of what they are taught, even when the child feels or knows that they should not do what is being asked of them. The one with the ice cream vendor is particularly eye-opening.

Salem

 

[Bravo]

Possible. Maybe they told her to stay still and be quiet or they would kill her. Maybe they told her that if she stayed down, she would get to go home.

If i was 8 and someone took me, I would do what they said because I would be scared and want to go home.

I dont doubt a terrified and threatened child would be compliant. I wonder tho if they had sedated Tori since they seemed so comfortable in making stops. A mere sighting of Tori would want to be avoided.

 

[~n/t~]

IMO, it wasn't a wasted day at all n/t ... i believe the witness's testimony was shakey at best, and the jury will be very cognizant of just how little the defence has in support of any "suggestions" they may make in closing.

JMO

The poor lady was brought in to testify for the defense and admitted she didn't want to be there. Why put her through that? In the end, her testimony wasn't here nor there. Her eyewitness account was unreliable and the Crown immediately poked holes in it. She was on the stand for approx 2 hours. Jury was sent to an extended morning break, then upon their return a little more testimony (maybe 15 minutes) to be sent off again for an extended lunch. They returned and were told that was it for the day and to come back Friday for closing arguments by the defense.

Yeah....I consider that a waste. Derstine could've said he had no evidence.....which God forbid would've been the truth. Perhaps the only truth coming from that side.

MOO

 

[Salem]

I hope and pray that they sedated Tori. I hope she was completely out of it over the next several hours. Some of TLM's testimony leads me to believe that Tori knew what was happening though. I hope she didn't, I hope she was too drugged up to be scared or to realize what was going on.

No person should have to face fear or evil like this. No child, no adult and for that matter, no animal either.

Salem

 

[Bravo]

It does appear from TLM's testimony that Tori was cognizant. Perhaps she was sedated in the beginning and it had worn off by the time they had reached the "zone". I guess we will never know.

 

[crazyladi]

IMO I dont think she was drugged at all. I really dont think they thought of it. I think she did whatever they told her to because she was scared

 

[nettie_82]

The whole drug debt theory really baffles me. IMO, if Tori was taken due to a drug debt, she would have been taken in an attempt to get payment for this debt. There would have been a ransom call made...there wasn't! Maybe I watch entirely too much TV, but I honestly don't think a drug dealer would take a child and just kill without attempting to get the money owed to them. To a drug addict/dealer I would believe it is much more important for them to get their money. All this JMO, and again maybe I just watch entirely too much TV to think this.

 

[Sillybilly]

I also believe the Grandmother's testimony was skewed (and not on purpose). I just think by the time she saw the video of TLM walking she could have put another person with a white coat going in the school that day or another day... and if the grandmother left before the woman with the white coat came out of the school then how did she see TLM and VS walking? nah, something was mixed up with that statement, surprised that the defense took the chance to put her on the stand with her having 2 separate incongruent statements.

I can't place any weight on the grandmother's claim that she saw TLM go into the school. While it is possible she did see TLM, it doesn't jive with what I believe is more concrete information from Tori's teacher wrt Tori going back to get her earrings and returning, with the earrings, to line up with other children.

I believe her testimony that she saw TLM and VS walking on Fyfe, but the video made the public aware of that fact, so her testimony in that regard is somewhat unnecessary. I feel the witness's testimony has been coloured by time and the extensive media coverage of the case.

When the witness was driving her vehicle up Fyfe and (presumably, not sure it was clarified that TLM and VS were to her right), with her daughter or one of her grandkids likely in the front passenger seat, with only seeing a side profile of TLM, she was somehow able to conclude that TLM appeared stern and that Tori was chatting away? While it may be her perception, it doesn't seem to coincide with the reality of what she has testified to.

MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

I find it strange that no one would think that the pea coat was thrown in the washer. I bet it was thrown in the washer a lot. Wasn't MR a smoker? Would he never wash his outer clothing? I thought he seemed kind of meticulous about his clothing. Looking at the coat, it doesn't look like a wool coat or any dress type coat that has structure and can't be washed and hung dry.

MOO

Catching up here, so this may have been anwered already. Typically, pea coats are fairly heavy wool, in which case it would not likely be washed in a machine (maybe at the car wash? LOL)

 

[brighidin]

I wonder where it is from? You can buy pea-coat like coats at bigger chain stores that aren't all wool.