Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

[Rumpole]

*bolded by me.

agreed. i don't honestly believe casey is mentally capable of making a detailed, well thought out plan in advance. i think she fantasized about life without caylee, and probably a few different ways to make it happen, but when it did happen it was an act of impulse.
i also agree with your description of how casey would have dealt with an accident. 'spin' is what casey does. she could've been a politician. if she can manipulate her mother into behaving as she has all these months, and that's with the unavoidable truth that casey killed cindy's grandchild, then she could had a field day with this scenario.

OK We agree then. We need something else to argue about. What is your guess on date of body disposal?
I am sticking with 24th but could be leaning towards earlier such as 19th or 20th.

 

[USARDOG]

*bolded by me.

agreed. i don't honestly believe casey is mentally capable of making a detailed, well thought out plan in advance. i think she fantasized about life without caylee, and probably a few different ways to make it happen, but when it did happen it was an act of impulse.
i also agree with your description of how casey would have dealt with an accident. 'spin' is what casey does. she could've been a politician. if she can manipulate her mother into behaving as she has all these months, and that's with the unavoidable truth that casey killed cindy's grandchild, then she could had a field day with this scenario.

I'm with you 100% here. I believe though, that in KC's fantacy, there was some money... That is where the kidnap plot comes in I think.

 

[eddeva]

OK We agree then. We need something else to argue about. What is your guess on date of body disposal?
I am sticking with 24th but could be leaning towards earlier such as 19th or 20th.

i don't see miss fussy britches driving around with a corpse in the car for fully a week. i know this isn't a pleasant subject but the fact is, after that long the smell would be terrible and it would also be adhering itself to her and this is not a smell that's easy to get rid of. not very sexy and certainly no way to win the affection of mr lazaro. i was thinking 18, 19, 20.
don't worry, eventually we'll disagree on something (it'll likely be on another case but nevermind)

 

[bessie]

(respectfully snipped) Strongly disagree. If a panicked, irresponsible, immature--and for those who refuse to allow me guilt-ridden (?) at least undeniably fear-ridden--person culpable of negligence can not hear a familiar, trusted adult's steadying voice on the other end, they just might not leave voicemail! "Hey Mom, sorry about the big fight last night and stealing all that money from Grandpa and you and everybody so... anyway, I'm freaking out a bit, uh just kinda did the thing you always said I would... I was gonna take Caylee for a swim but sorta spaced out, forgot the ladder was up and I guess Caylee got tired of waiting and must've climbed up and fell in cuz I just now found her in the bottom pool. K well, I'm pretty sure she was in there for, like, at least 20 or 30 minutes cuz I was upoading some stuff to photobucket. She's absolutely lifeless and looks braindead. But anyway, nobody's picking up, I can't get Dad either so I'm too scared to call 911 and it's probably a HUGE waste anyway, so call me back in a few ok? K bye."

LOL! Are you kidding me? A guilt-ridden, fear-ridden individual of any age -- or one pretending to be -- would've yelled into that phone, "HELP!!!!!"

 

[JWG]

...the more I think 'bout it...the more I'm thinking George took the spare tire cover mat out to the backyard and cleaned it there where the dogs hit. He likely used the chloroform pesticide either on the mat and/or in the car due to the maggots. Plenty of time to do this before LE came to pick up the Pontiac.

I just don't see Casey showing the initiative...

I kind of agree, except I believe it was Cindy and not George. I am pretty convinced at this point that George left for work very soon after driving the Pontiac home.

 

[marla]

OK We agree then. We need something else to argue about. What is your guess on date of body disposal?
I am sticking with 24th but could be leaning towards earlier such as 19th or 20th.

Had to be just before the 24th ..
George saw the stain in the trunk ..

 

[Rumpole]

Had to be just before the 24th ..
George saw the stain in the trunk ..

Refresh my memory please when did GA say that?

Do we believe him?

 

[JWG]

OK We agree then. We need something else to argue about. What is your guess on date of body disposal?
I am sticking with 24th but could be leaning towards earlier such as 19th or 20th.

Bond's argument for the 20th has me convinced, as does the recently rumored forensic botany report (says the 18th).

I am now voting for the 20th. KC's reaction to George on the 24th was due, I believe, to the ever increasing stench forming in her "Tell-Tale Heart" of a trunk, and not because a body was in the trunk.

 

[Rumpole]

Bond's argument for the 20th has me convinced, as does the recently rumored forensic botany report (says the 18th).

I am now voting for the 20th. KC's reaction to George on the 24th was due, I believe, to the ever increasing stench forming in her "Tell-Tale Heart" of a trunk, and not because a body was in the trunk.

I wanted to raise this issue with you with your knowledge of pings, puters and such.
Are any of those days 19,20,23,24 excluded or unlikely based on KC's percieved location?

 

[JWG]

I wanted to raise this issue with you with your knowledge of pings, puters and such.
Are any of those days 19,20,23,24 excluded or unlikely based on KC's percieved location?

Hercule - only the 19th would be excluded. She was not in the area that day. There is much speculation as to where she was then, but it was not her parents.

 

[Rumpole]

Hercule - only the 19th would be excluded. She was not in the area that day. There is much speculation as to where she was then, but it was not her parents.

JWG

Thank you. I'll try and remember that. I think you have explained it before. I think I need the human equivalent of a memory upgrade -some extra RAM

 

[kiki the parrot]

I agree with the cholorform first then the drowning, didn't they find a little swimsuit with Caylee's remains>? What I do not understand is where she made the chloroform and I believe it turns into a powder form afterwards. Maybe, hopefully they found some in the house, tool shed, whatever...or remnants on the duct tape. Then it would have "looked" accidental and no cries from Caylee from the pool, no struggle. But then why should she take any of the blame. Zanny did it. yeah that is it. Zanny did it. I just feel so sorry for that little girl and think she is in a much better place then the long terms effect of living with a mother like that. Bless that little child.

I'm thinking it was an easy, bloodless way to kill Caylee. Knock her out, put her in the pool to finish her off.

(bold mine) As I've said, it isn't necessary to first chloroform in order to then drown a child. This would totally be a case of "overkill" as a child (especially one so young) naturally drawn to water hardly ever need be sedated in order to be drowned noiselessly--which is why pools have come to be called "Silent Killers." At Caylee's age there isn't any awareness of the dangers, only elated memories of where she spent her most joyfilled hours. No splash, no struggle, an unattended child simply slips beneath the surface of the water and... total silence. That is why tragically so few drownings are discovered before it's too late, as it takes less than five minutes. And statistics, particularly for this age group, are especially staggering in Florida.

Thanks for the info. Jon. I guess my theory about the use of the side gate would depend on whether KC put her car in the garage that afternoon or not, but I am assuming she wouldn't have bothered, because she had to leave at some point before CA got home, in order to maintain her 'at work' story.

ITA KC would not have brought a dripping, deceased child, through her parent's home but sought the most discreet route possible.

I also think the duct tape works in with the kidnap story too. I believe she wanted Caylee found thinking it would prove her innocent. The duct tape would look like a kidnap, and she was found with the book KC made a big deal about Caylee reading to her over the phone after she was kidnapped. Remember... (detective) What did she say... (KC)she only talked about the stupid book she was reading...

ITA By staging something far more horrific, ie mimicking a random crime perpetrated by a total stranger, she was attempting to deflect responsibility for, and "distance" herself from, Caylee's death. In doing so though, she also destroyed the only evidence which could ever have one day proven simple negligence on her part.

She was probably trying to text Tony or talk to him on the computer and Caylee needed attention.

(respectfully snipped) Now here I can agree 100%!!!

I'm thinking the clothes found in the bag or around the bones of Caylee may help fill in the missing puzzle pieces about what happened that fateful day. If a bathing suit is in the bag or with the remains then perhaps a swimming accident was staged. If the same outfit from the Father's Day video is with the body, perhaps it was chloroform, smothering or some other type of violence. Perhaps Caylee was in her little jammies. I'm sure we'll find out come trial (or in the next document dump).

You recognize the bathing suit in the bag is a HUGE clue that Caylee did in fact drown. Yet you conclude from this it is the drowning itself that must have been staged(?) Do we have that much trouble envisioning KC too busy to be bothered w watching Caylee? Is it so hard to imagine KC ignoring Caylee, becoming distracted by more self-centered things? Must we deny that this pool situation was an accident waiting to happen--and Caylee in the care of someone who is in fact precisely the sort of preoccupied, inattentive parent for whom these sort of tragedies are most likely? Stage a drowning--for whom? Had KC attempted to do so, it would have been necessary to at least leave the body at the scene...
:waitasec:

LP said there was a swimsuit found with the remains yes.

Yes. This was reported on NG.

A very clever fellow WS'er (JWG) has posted a a very plausible alternative explanation for the various searches on KC's computer. I think it's in this thread somewhere - I'll try to search for it, unless any else knows where to find it.

Edited: Here's the post I referred to (No.134):
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...oroform&page=6

Yes, all 12 minutes of them... (TY JWG for putting this into perspective!) JMO

 

[Who_What_When]

Something has always bothered me in all this, forgive me if this was already talked about but I didn't have the patience to go through the 45 pages in this thread...

Where was Caylee during all the times that she wasn't with Casey or her GP? I'm not saying I buy the Zanny the Nanny story, but something doesn't add up. I don't believe that she was drugged in her car, only because I would think that someone would have seen her in broad daylight. I guess it would depend on where did Casey park her car when she was with friends? Anyway, it isn't like she just started saying the Nanny, she has used that excuse for months, just never a name.

 

[kiki the parrot]

LOL! Are you kidding me? A guilt-ridden, fear-ridden individual of any age -- or one pretending to be -- would've yelled into that phone, "HELP!!!!!"

No, not any more than you are "kidding" about your own opinions. The difference is that I have (among my other children) a 20 year-old daughter and a two year-old granddaughter; that I know how easily any parent can be distracted but particularly a parent whose priorities are out of order; that I can't begin to understand why there were no safety barriers around a pool w a toddler living there in the home; that I am well aware it takes only minutes for irreversible damage, and death to result; that I can imagine that day it being far, far longer that Caylee was left unattended and beneath that water; and that I simply can NOT FATHOM the utter horror and trauma of retrieving my precious child, beyond hope of revival, or of being ever restored to their former self, from the water--especially if my negligence were responsible. And THAT is with nearly 50 years of life experience, and a strong faith that has seen me through tremendous losses. No... I am not "kidding." I don't think it's terribly funny either as I fear that is exactly what happened and--as indefensible as it was not to report, and at least attempt, or confirm if it was too late, to render aid--that she could not find the strength to face her mother and admit responsibility for her death. If, God forbid, a similar tragedy should ever happen to my own granddaughter while in my daughter's care, I trust she would have the courage to act more responsibly, but in a crisis she could and would need to draw strength from her faith--something KC has never had. JMO
:rose:

 

[kline]

Bolded by me

Okay - I am ready to be convinced, so it would be helpful if you could qualify the statement I have bolded. What indications that we've seen (in your opinion) point to premeditated murder as opposed to an accidental death followed by cowardly cover-up scenario?

Number one,I cant think of any other instance in my experience where an 'accident' victim is found with duct tape over their mouth possibly wrapped in a blanket then a garbage bag and dumped in the woods.
Casey's behavior after Caylee is gone.
How could any of it possibly be attributed to a mother who's child has accidentally died?
Lingeree and Beer?
Dirty dancing at the Club?
'A Beautiful Life' Tattoo?
The 'Nanny' story?
Which one of these things indicates an accident?
Because from where im sitting they indicate someone who is absolutely exultant at the way things turned out then trying deperately to avoid the consequences of her actions.
Not something you would see in someone who would find themselves with a dead child by circumstance then trying to cover it up for some nebulous reason.
Im curious I mean we could all come up with possible scenarios involving an accident no matter how implausible.
What is it in the knowledge of this case that we have that indicates to you that it was an accident?
There must be something for you to feel as strongly as you do about it.
Please share.

 

[kline]

No, not any more than you are "kidding" about your own opinions. The difference is that I have (among my other children) a 20 year-old daughter and a two year-old granddaughter; that I know how easily any parent can be distracted but particularly a parent whose priorities are out of order; that I can't begin to understand why there were no safety barriers around a pool w a toddler living there in the home; that I am well aware it takes only minutes for irreversible damage, and death to result; that I can imagine that day it being far, far longer that Caylee was left unattended and beneath that water; and that I simply can NOT FATHOM the utter horror and trauma of retrieving my precious child, beyond hope of revival, or of being ever restored to their former self, from the water--especially if my negligence were responsible. And THAT is with nearly 50 years of life experience, and a strong faith that has seen me through tremendous losses. No... I am not "kidding." I don't think it's terribly funny either as I fear that is exactly what happened and--as indefensible as it was not to report, and at least attempt, or confirm if it was too late, to render aid--that she could not find the strength to face her mother and admit responsibility for her death. If, God forbid, a similar tragedy should ever happen to my own granddaughter while in my daughter's care, I trust she would have the courage to act more responsibly, but in a crisis she could and would need to draw strength from her faith--something KC has never had. JMO
:rose:

This probably a pointless debate because Im fairly certain that even if Casey is convicted of first degree murder some will maintain it was accident.
Im fairly certain that if Casey confessed to premeditated murder and the Recording Angel notarized her confession some would maintain it was an accident.

 

[Imajica]

Number one,I cant think of any other instance in my experience where an 'accident' victim is found with duct tape over their mouth possibly wrapped in a blanket then a garbage bag and dumped in the woods.
Casey's behavior after Caylee is gone.
How could any of it possibly be attributed to a mother who's child has accidentally died?
Lingeree and Beer?
Dirty dancing at the Club?
'A Beautiful Life' Tattoo?
The 'Nanny' story?
Which one of these things indicates an accident?
Because from where im sitting they indicate someone who is absolutely exultant at the way things turned out then trying deperately to avoid the consequences of her actions.
Not something you would see in someone who would find themselves with a dead child by circumstance then trying to cover it up for some nebulous reason.
Im curious I mean we could all come up with possible scenarios involving an accident no matter how implausible.
What is it in the knowledge of this case that we have that indicates to you that it was an accident?
There must be something for you to feel as strongly as you do about it.
Please share.

Wow Babe, I see the "Oranges" are circling your wagon again.

Deja-vu much eh? :bang:

At this point with all of the overwhelming evidence that points to pre-meditation, I would find it vastly more intriguing if those who think Caylee's death an accident would list any and all of the facts/evidence that support that theory for us. We have listed our reasons til our wee little fingers are blue, it's only fair that the opposing views share their reasons for feeling the way they do about the case.

Any takers?

 

[Whisperer]

A few thoughts come to mind...

1. kc was not driving her car much after Jun 15th. She borrowed TL's on the 17th or so Hers was parked somewhere or out of gas, she borrowed Amy's too even before Amy's vacation. She avoided the pontiac..claiming various problems. I bet she was in it only a matter of a few hours for a few days...she was done with it within 10 days.

2. If the book in the woods was the same book that Caylee had at the rest home on Father's Day, how did it get from Cindy into kc's car? When did this transfer happen? People ask why didn't she leave "Mama doll" with Caylee. I think she put Mama doll in Caylee's carseat and derived some sort of sick comfort from it.

3. If there is a bathing suit found at the scene, does that mean Caylee could have drowned the night before?..I wish there was more info on the beautiful nightly "swim" Cindy alluded to....and let's not forget the "tucking in of the children"..(GaG)

4. What purpose was the ladder at the pool on the 17th when CA insists she replaced it on the evening of the 15th after their swim.? Was CA setting up a defense? or was the question justified?

5. On the night of the 15th till the wee hrs, kc was on phone for 8 hrs with TL, non-stop. The calls were bouncing evenly between 2 towers the whole time. I had not seen that pattern before. Does this mean she was moving around in the house or was she parked some place else talking to him?

I am guessing something horrible happened at that house on the 15th before GA got home and Cindy knows what it is. I don't think that big fight was over money. CA had been thru that stuff for years...Maybe Cindy saw kc strike Caylee or worse and became furious. We know kc did not go to TLs ;but we don't know if she stayed at the house or left with Caylee...only CA knows what was missing from house and exactly what belongings of Caylees were with kc. CA has not been truthful on this....if she didn't believe kc harmed Caylee, she would have given a list of what was taken and what Caylee was wearing....she did no such thing. I think she fed GA what to say about the clothes and the next day. He probably thought it was the 9th (that was the day kc slept at RMs) kc told her dad she was going to work late so Caylee would be with the 'nanny'. There is a possibility that GA has the dates mixed or was fed info.

I find it strange that C&G never questioned the "nanny"...the conculsion is because "They both knew there wasn't any Nanny" and they played along to avoid an outburst from kc. She was a screamer and high-strung and scared them, I bet.

What they are guilty of is not ever confronting the daughter and her lies. Didn't they ever wonder what they did all day? I am sure kc stayed at the house most of the time...there was most likely evidence of that but she was never confronted....my guess is Cindy is terrified of kc....not the other way around.

I imagine they have seen the wrath of kc many, many times. It bothers me that they entrusted Caylee with her at all. Let's face it, for all general purposes, Cindy was really the mother of Caylee...kc resented her for it too. She was not appreciative, just jealous.

I contend that anyone who really knew kc would have a pretty good idea of what she did to Caylee and how she did it. She appears to be a creature of comfort; never wandered far at all; had a pretty good routine going (according to the first 2 weeks of pings). It appears that many of us thought the child was close to home. I used to say the resovior area in back of her house, but changed when I heard it was cleared. Anyway her family should have had an idea, IMO. We came up with ideas and we didn't know her. All they say in ZG took Caylee....everyone go look!...Keep th "focus" on Caylee, IOW don't question kc!...:boohoo:

 

[eddeva]

I'm with you 100% here. I believe though, that in KC's fantacy, there was some money... That is where the kidnap plot comes in I think.

i wouldn't argue with that at all. i also think it possible that in casey's fantasy world caylee was not the only person who was absent.

Something has always bothered me in all this, forgive me if this was already talked about but I didn't have the patience to go through the 45 pages in this thread...

Where was Caylee during all the times that she wasn't with Casey or her GP? I'm not saying I buy the Zanny the Nanny story, but something doesn't add up. I don't believe that she was drugged in her car, only because I would think that someone would have seen her in broad daylight. I guess it would depend on where did Casey park her car when she was with friends? Anyway, it isn't like she just started saying the Nanny, she has used that excuse for months, just never a name.

i have the same question as you and casey wouldn't bother to acquire an inflatable matress unless she was using it (jmo)

 

[eddeva]

that she could not find the strength to face her mother and admit responsibility for her death. If, God forbid, a similar tragedy should ever happen to my own granddaughter while in my daughter's care, I trust she would have the courage to act more responsibly, but in a crisis she could and would need to draw strength from her faith--something KC has never had. JMO
:rose:

this is a small point, but still - i am a person of faith, however i do not believe it to be the vital component necessary in choosing to call for help when you find your child dead or close to it. even if you are scared of your mother.