Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

[Devon]

We have mountains of testimany regarding KC before the crime?
Lying, hopping from bed to bed. Not working. Living a pretend life. Several pretend lives. If she were face suddenly with Caylee dead from an accident. I think she would have easily and readily spun a story showing not only was it not her fault, it was somebody elses fault and in fact she would paint here self as a hero having done here best. Just like the nutty claim by CA about "Mothert of THe Year Award". An accident would have suited KC just fine.

But the fact is, she did spin a story ( 2 to be precise), she just didn't include a 'dead' Caylee in them. I personally think this is quite possibly because she just couldn't face the eternal blame, loathing and rejection that would come from CA if she admitted that she had been negligent - she would be the 'bad, irresponsible, useless mother' that I think she was continually being told she was. IMO, regardless of how Caylee actually died, her main fear (even over and above what society will do to her for her crimes) is losing her mother's love and approval. I think this is why she has remained silent about what really happened, and probably will continue to do so.

 

[Devon]

*respectfully snipped*
this in itself is another problem for me regarding the accident theory.
imagine casey is in fact in pain. torn apart by the loss of her child but somehow able to hide it completely - is there any more private moment than the one in which she disposed of her daughter's earthly remains?
would a mother suffering unthinkable grief, having to finally say goodbye, forever, to her baby girl, choose to do so by putting her in a trash bag and dropping her decomposing body at the local dump?
this tells me all i need to know about what she was thinking in her private moments.
i'm not arguing with you - just explaining why i see things differently.

Bolded by me

This is one interpretation of the manner in which Caylee's body was hidden. However, just as plausible is an interpretation that she wrapped Caylee in a blanket or other covering, put her in a bag so that she was not only contained, but also protected to a certain degree from the elements, bugs etc, (think psychological substitution for 'safe' and 'warm') and then placed her close to home. At the moment, it all depends on what we want to think and believe. There is no evidence that she was 'dumped' rather than gently placed, no evidence as yet as to whether she may have initially been buried in a shallow grave, no evidence of why she chose the site that she did. Your point seems to be that she showed Caylee's body no respect, but we do not know that.

 

[Jr_Detective]

What evidence do we have that hair was found on the duct tape?

It would be nearly impossible for someone to wrap duct tape around another person's head without having hair folicals inadvertently attached to the tape. Just my theory.

Otherwise, it was widely reported that hair matching the color and texture of Caylee's was found at the scene.

 

[eddeva]

Bolded by me

This is one interpretation of the manner in which Caylee's body was hidden. However, just as plausible is an interpretation that she wrapped Caylee in a blanket or other covering, put her in a bag so that she was not only contained, but also protected to a certain degree from the elements, bugs etc, (think psychological substitution for 'safe' and 'warm') and then placed her close to home. At the moment, it all depends on what we want to think and believe. There is no evidence that she was 'dumped' rather than gently placed, no evidence as yet as to whether she may have initially been buried in a shallow grave, no evidence of why she chose the site that she did. Your point seems to be that she showed Caylee's body no respect, but we do not know that.

i'm a real loving mother, not pretend. she ditched her baby's body in a trash bag at the dump - regardless of what else she put there ... or why (???). i couldn't do that. i don't mean i'd have a rough time making myself do it, i mean i couldn't do it.
i couldn't do it b/c i am a loving mother. loving mothers do not, cannot act as casey did. it's not about respect, it's about love. when i hear excuses for her actions they, to me, are so implausible that they only serve to reinforce my beliefs.
i respect the fact that you're so commited to the idea of an accident though. it shows you are a far more trusting soul than i.

 

[reeseeva]

What evidence do we have that hair was found on the duct tape?

Last night on Nancy G, News reporter Jessica D., stated that it is confirmed that the hair in the trunk & the hair found at the crime scene are a match to Caylee. What keeps going thru my mind lately is George stating:

"The person that was in the trunk of my daughter's car is not my grand-daughter" :waitasec::waitasec:

 

[Nelliebell]

What evidence do we have that hair was found on the duct tape?

I don't think we have seen the actual evidence of hair on the duct tape yet. However, to me, when the ME stated that there was evidence of homocide, I could only draw the conclusion that she found both hair prior to death on the tape and obviously, decomp. hair. She was making her finding based not only on the circumstantial evidence of homocide prior to the discovery of Caylee, but from what she observed during her examination.

 

[BondJamesBond]

I'm beginning to wonder 'bout Casey's tale of leaving Caylee at the bottom of the stairs @ Sawgrass...perhaps the pool stair = Sawgrass stair in Casey-world.

Perhaps Casey simply placed the steps on the edge of the pool for Caylee to do herself in. Then the flurry of calls was intended to be something like, "Dad/Mom! Casey climbed into the pool! Mom musta left the steps there last night [i.e. It's Cindy's fault!]!!"...then no one answers her 'flurry' of call AND she remembers that she's supposed to be @ work...oh crap...didn't plan this out very well...need to figure out Plan B...and into the trunk with Caylee she goes.

Perhaps the cadaver dog hits in the backyard & the elevated chloroform are from Casey taking the decomp-stained spare tire cover mat into the back yard, spraying it with pesticide to kill maggots on her clean-up trip 6/18. I hadn't seen info on chloroform used as a pesticide before...(link below). One of the Google results actually returned and Orlando dealer. :bang:

https://www1.fishersci.com/wps/portal/PRODUCTDETAIL?productId=685311&catalogId=29104&=25&catCode=RE_SC&fromCat=yes&keepSessionSearchOutPut=true&brCategoryId=null&hlpi=y&fromSearch=Y

FWIW, after talking to George during the hour before the flurry of calls it started to rain ~3:45PM IIRC, then, heavily around 4PM. Perhaps Casey left the gate open after getting the wet body into a duffle and carrying it through the gate into the garage through the mandoor on the west side of the house....in the pouring rain.

Fits Casey's 10-minutes-@-a-time m.o. and avoiding responsiblity @ all costs. And would explain the pool ladder still being hooked up Tuesday morning, the gate being unlocked, and Casey's appearance in the Blockbuster security video as if she didn't take much time to get 'date-ready'.

Plenty of holes in this...just thought I'd throw it out there to noodle on.

 

[BellaPhia]

I'm beginning to wonder 'bout Casey's tale of leaving Caylee at the bottom of the stairs @ Sawgrass...perhaps the pool stair = Sawgrass stair in Casey-world.

Perhaps Casey simply placed the steps on the edge of the pool for Caylee to do herself in. Then the flurry of calls was intended to be something like, "Dad/Mom! Casey climbed into the pool! Mom musta left the steps there last night [i.e. It's Cindy's fault!]!!"...then no one answers her 'flurry' of call AND she remembers that she's supposed to be @ work...oh crap...didn't plan this out very well...need to figure out Plan B...and into the trunk with Caylee she goes.

Perhaps the cadaver dog hits in the backyard & the elevated chloroform are from Casey taking the decomp-stained spare tire cover mat into the back yard, spraying it with pesticide to kill maggots on her clean-up trip 6/18. I hadn't seen info on chloroform used as a pesticide before...(link below). One of the Google results actually returned and Orlando dealer. :bang:

https://www1.fishersci.com/wps/portal/PRODUCTDETAIL?productId=685311&catalogId=29104&=25&catCode=RE_SC&fromCat=yes&keepSessionSearchOutPut=true&brCategoryId=null&hlpi=y&fromSearch=Y

FWIW, after talking to George during the hour before the flurry of calls it started to rain ~3:45PM IIRC, then, heavily around 4PM. Perhaps Casey left the gate open after getting the wet body into a duffle and carrying it through the gate into the garage through the mandoor on the west side of the house....in the pouring rain.

Fits Casey's 10-minutes-@-a-time m.o. and avoiding responsiblity @ all costs. And would explain the pool ladder still being hooked up Tuesday morning, the gate being unlocked, and Casey's appearance in the Blockbuster security video as if she didn't take much time to get 'date-ready'.
Plenty of holes in this...just thought I'd throw it out there to noodle on.

:clap::clap::clap:
I said this a few weeks ago....I felt she either placed the ladder to the pool so Caylee could climb in herself....or she assisted Caylee in drowning while in the pool with her. Tried to make it look like an accident....but definitely a deliberate act. As for the Blockbuster video...I also mentioned it looks as if she may have been wearing a bathingsuit under that men's athletic shirt with open sides....what else would she have have on???

 

[Rumpole]

I'm beginning to wonder 'bout Casey's tale of leaving Caylee at the bottom of the stairs @ Sawgrass...perhaps the pool stair = Sawgrass stair in Casey-world.

Perhaps Casey simply placed the steps on the edge of the pool for Caylee to do herself in. Then the flurry of calls was intended to be something like, "Dad/Mom! Casey climbed into the pool! Mom musta left the steps there last night [i.e. It's Cindy's fault!]!!"...then no one answers her 'flurry' of call AND she remembers that she's supposed to be @ work...oh crap...didn't plan this out very well...need to figure out Plan B...and into the trunk with Caylee she goes.

Perhaps the cadaver dog hits in the backyard & the elevated chloroform are from Casey taking the decomp-stained spare tire cover mat into the back yard, spraying it with pesticide to kill maggots on her clean-up trip 6/18. I hadn't seen info on chloroform used as a pesticide before...(link below). One of the Google results actually returned and Orlando dealer. :bang:

https://www1.fishersci.com/wps/portal/PRODUCTDETAIL?productId=685311&catalogId=29104&=25&catCode=RE_SC&fromCat=yes&keepSessionSearchOutPut=true&brCategoryId=null&hlpi=y&fromSearch=Y

FWIW, after talking to George during the hour before the flurry of calls it started to rain ~3:45PM IIRC, then, heavily around 4PM. Perhaps Casey left the gate open after getting the wet body into a duffle and carrying it through the gate into the garage through the mandoor on the west side of the house....in the pouring rain.

Fits Casey's 10-minutes-@-a-time m.o. and avoiding responsiblity @ all costs. And would explain the pool ladder still being hooked up Tuesday morning, the gate being unlocked, and Casey's appearance in the Blockbuster security video as if she didn't take much time to get 'date-ready'.

Plenty of holes in this...just thought I'd throw it out there to noodle on.

I wonder if the "we always remove the ladder" was just bs? Where did they keep it?
Sort of thing you might plan to do, but after a while nobody bothers? I have asked before about laws governing fencing private pools. Does Fl have any? (Where I am there are laws, not reccommending it.) With a small child I think I would consider a pool fence?

 

[BellaPhia]

I wonder if the "we always remove the ladder" was just bs? Where did they keep it?
Sort of thing you might plan to do, but after a while nobody bothers? I have asked before about laws governing pooling private pools. Does Fl have any? (Where I am there are laws, not reccommending it.) With a small child I think I would consider a pool fence?

My sister has almost the same type of pool ladder....you basically move it to and from the pool on a "in use" basis. My sister usually moves it and lies it down on the ground or leans it up against the fence or shed. I on the other hand, have an inground pool that has a safety mesh fence around it.

 

[bessie]

I'm beginning to wonder 'bout Casey's tale of leaving Caylee at the bottom of the stairs @ Sawgrass...perhaps the pool stair = Sawgrass stair in Casey-world.

Perhaps Casey simply placed the steps on the edge of the pool for Caylee to do herself in. Then the flurry of calls was intended to be something like, "Dad/Mom! Casey climbed into the pool! Mom musta left the steps there last night [i.e. It's Cindy's fault!]!!"...then no one answers her 'flurry' of call AND she remembers that she's supposed to be @ work...oh crap...didn't plan this out very well...need to figure out Plan B...and into the trunk with Caylee she goes.

I'm working on a similar theory, Bond, but haven't posted it because I'm still working out the kinks. But here it is. Any ideas?

• KC is agitated by the events of the previous night, and likely the previous week beginning on or about June 9th.
• She's frustrated because she wants to rendevous with TL (AL) that night, but no babysitter. The A's are fed up.
• At least three times in the past several weeks, her plans with TL were thwarted by babysitting problems. CA either refused to babysit or called KC home early.
• Using an artificial babysitter, i.e., sedation -- if that theory's true -- is risky and not a viable longterm solution.
• In short, the situation has come to a head. She's having a really bad day.
• GA calls her and says something like, "I'm not sure we put the ladder away last night. You'd better check." (According to phone log analysis, per JGW, there was a 26 second call to KC from GA on the 16th. It was one of only two such calls in the time period for which we have phone records.)
• Light bulb moment for KC. Stage a drowning. Blame it on the A's.

The problem with this theory is GA's statement about seeing them leave that morning and KC's claim that she'd be working late and Caylee would be staying with the nanny. If that's true, he wouldn't expect her to be at home. So...

• GA's recollection is innacurate. The event he described actually took place on another day prior to June 16th. Or he lied. I've never quite believed that story.
• Or, he knew she was lying about going to work and suspected she was at home or would be going home that day, and was worried about Caylee getting into the pool. So, he says, "If you happen to go home today, check the ladder."

I'm focusing on the 24 hour period from the evening of June 15th through the evening of the 16th, and I have a hunch the call from GA is significant.

On the other hand, you might be right. She came up with the staged drowning idea on her own. GA's call is irrelevant. His story was accurate, and the tart mom had a customary lapse of memory.


Regarding the flurry of calls, I doubt they were cries of help. Why? She would've left voice messages. Of course, if she did leave vm's, the A's knew something happened that day and they've been lying ever since. Unless she lied her way out of that, too. "I thought she had drowned. But, no, no, she was okay. I gave her mouth-to-mouth. Really, mom."

 

[Forensic fan]

I'm beginning to wonder 'bout Casey's tale of leaving Caylee at the bottom of the stairs @ Sawgrass...perhaps the pool stair = Sawgrass stair in Casey-world
Fits Casey's 10-minutes-@-a-time m.o. and avoiding responsiblity @ all costs. And would explain the pool ladder still being hooked up Tuesday morning, the gate being unlocked, and Casey's appearance in the Blockbuster security video as if she didn't take much time to get 'date-ready'.

Plenty of holes in this...just thought I'd throw it out there to noodle on.

I had been hoping something like this was true, then we heard that it was done intentionally. I wish we knew what made them say that. Anyway, I have a question that may be rather OT. What would happen in the courts if she just said "OK, it was an accident, she drowned in the pool and I just put duct tape on her to make it look like a kidnapping so Mom wouldn't hate me." ?

 

[MarleneM]

Bolded by me

This is one interpretation of the manner in which Caylee's body was hidden. However, just as plausible is an interpretation that she wrapped Caylee in a blanket or other covering, put her in a bag so that she was not only contained, but also protected to a certain degree from the elements, bugs etc, (think psychological substitution for 'safe' and 'warm') and then placed her close to home. At the moment, it all depends on what we want to think and believe. There is no evidence that she was 'dumped' rather than gently placed, no evidence as yet as to whether she may have initially been buried in a shallow grave, no evidence of why she chose the site that she did.

Your point seems to be that she showed Caylee's body no respect, but we do not know that.

I know that reports confirmed this week there was duct tape on Caylee's little mouth, I also know that forensics report that there is evidence that Caylee was dead in the back of KC's car trunk for at least 2 days. I know that her toddler sized bones were found wrapped in garbage bags and left in a littered neighborhood woody area around the corner from the A home.

My vote, regardless of how unfounded some may believe, is that KC showed nothing but disregard for Caylee's body when she was done with her.

 

[Devon]

I've just been having some further thoughts about the events of June 16. After looking at the house floor-plan thread (huge thanks to Hercule/Steve etc. for this work) it's possible to get a clearer picture of access in/out of the house/garage/back yard.

I am assuming that the A's garage door can't be remotely operated from outside, and so they have to first enter by the side garage entrance door and then open the main garage door from inside before driving their car(s) in. So, on June 16, KC returned to the house after GA had left for work and most likely used her own key to gain entry to the house via the garage entrance door (the A's have stated that this is the normal/usual way they enter the house). She most probably also left her car on the driveway as she was not supposed to be there (told GA she was off to 'work') and so would be leaving again at some point.

I will also assume that the account (from CA/GA) of the pool ladder being up and the gate being left open on one particular day is true, and that the day this occurred was June 16. I had previously thought that the gate they referred to was a gate for an enclosure that contained the pool for safety reasons, but have now seen in the available pics that there is no such enclosure and so the gate they referred to must be the one in the side fence of their yard, next to the garage, that leads to the front of the property.

Since it doesn't make sense to have the latch of this gate on the outside of the fence, it must be that the gate can only be opened, and fastened shut again, from the inside, so it's feasible to assume that the reason it was not fastened shut was because the person who had last used it had exited the back yard and did not go back via the house and backyard to refasten it from the inside. I think the reason for this was because that person was in a hurry to leave the property.

But, according to CA/GA, the gate was not only unfastened, but was left open. I think this is because whoever used the gate on that occasion was a) carrying something using both hands/arms, and b) in a hurry to get that 'load' into the car and away.

So, if Caylee died inside the house, I would expect KC to have carried her straight out through either the main front door, main garage door or side garage entrance door and to the car– there would be no reason to exit through the side yard gate, thus leaving herself unable to refasten it. Conversely, if she died in the back yard, would it make sense for KC to then carry her in through the house and out to the car via any of the exits as above, when the shortest, quickest route was through the side gate? This leads me to believe that Caylee did indeed die in the back yard. I think just after deciding to flee, KC may have gone into the house to get a covering and bag to wrap the body with and to collect her things. She probably then went out the side garage door, put her things into the car (possibly also anything else that she needed to take away from the 'scene'), and then opened the trunk. I think she then returned to the house, locking the side garage door from the inside, and then went out to wrap Caylee's body in the back yard. She then carried her through the side gate, into the trunk and away as fast as possible – no time to close the gate, and impossible now to refasten it.

Finally, if June 16 was indeed the day that the gate was left open, it was also the day that the pool ladder was left in place. Why was this? I'll leave that for others to theorise on, but I'm sure by now it's clear what I think the answer is!

 

[feddup]

I wonder if the "we always remove the ladder" was just bs? Where did they keep it?
Sort of thing you might plan to do, but after a while nobody bothers? I have asked before about laws governing fencing private pools. Does Fl have any? (Where I am there are laws, not reccommending it.) With a small child I think I would consider a pool fence?

In FL I am not sure what the pool laws are. My brothers has a fence around the inground pool, it was there when they bought the house.
Frankly, most of the pools Ive seen here are INground pools.
The pool behind me is in a fenced yard but there is no fence around the pool. Its a rental house and when tenants move out they sometimes leave the fence gate wide open which seems to me it would put whoever owns the property/pool at a liability.
I would think that with a 2 almost 3 yr old being around, they wouldve moved that ladder. Seems dangerous as they can climb at that age but maybe not know how to swim/ alot of people start their kids young in swimming when they have a pool. Dont know about the Anthonys.

 

[Rumpole]

I've just been having some further thoughts about the events of June 16. After looking at the house floor-plan thread (huge thanks to Hercule/Steve etc. for this work) it's possible to get a clearer picture of access in/out of the house/garage/back yard.

I am assuming that the A's garage door can't be remotely operated from outside, and so they have to first enter by the side garage entrance door and then open the main garage door from inside before driving their car(s) in. So, on June 16, KC returned to the house after GA had left for work and most likely used her own key to gain entry to the house via the garage entrance door (the A's have stated that this is the normal/usual way they enter the house). She most probably also left her car on the driveway as she was not supposed to be there (told GA she was off to 'work') and so would be leaving again at some point.

I will also assume that the account (from CA/GA) of the pool ladder being up and the gate being left open on one particular day is true, and that the day this occurred was June 16. I had previously thought that the gate they referred to was a gate for an enclosure that contained the pool for safety reasons, but have now seen in the available pics that there is no such enclosure and so the gate they referred to must be the one in the side fence of their yard, next to the garage, that leads to the front of the property.

Since it doesn't make sense to have the latch of this gate on the outside of the fence, it must be that the gate can only be opened, and fastened shut again, from the inside, so it's feasible to assume that the reason it was not fastened shut was because the person who had last used it had exited the back yard and did not go back via the house and backyard to refasten it from the inside. I think the reason for this was because that person was in a hurry to leave the property.

But, according to CA/GA, the gate was not only unfastened, but was left open. I think this is because whoever used the gate on that occasion was a) carrying something using both hands/arms, and b) in a hurry to get that 'load' into the car and away.

So, if Caylee died inside the house, I would expect KC to have carried her straight out through either the main front door, main garage door or side garage entrance door and to the car– there would be no reason to exit through the side yard gate, thus leaving herself unable to refasten it. Conversely, if she died in the back yard, would it make sense for KC to then carry her in through the house and out to the car via any of the exits as above, when the shortest, quickest route was through the side gate? This leads me to believe that Caylee did indeed die in the back yard. I think just after deciding to flee, KC may have gone into the house to get a covering and bag to wrap the body with and to collect her things. She probably then went out the side garage door, put her things into the car (possibly also anything else that she needed to take away from the 'scene'), and then opened the trunk. I think she then returned to the house, locking the side garage door from the inside, and then went out to wrap Caylee's body in the back yard. She then carried her through the side gate, into the trunk and away as fast as possible – no time to close the gate, and impossible now to refasten it.

Finally, if June 16 was indeed the day that the gate was left open, it was also the day that the pool ladder was left in place. Why was this? I'll leave that for others to theorise on, but I'm sure by now it's clear what I think the answer is!

I like your thinking, except........
Caylee could have been killed in the house, then the body taken to back yard. Perhaps layed down while KC considered what to do next. My "guess" is that she considered faking a pool accident. Perhaps got as far as placing the body in the pool (I don't know). From that point everything you say makes sense. When she decided to leave, she exited as you say via the side gate.

 

[Devon]

In FL I am not sure what the pool laws are. My brothers has a fence around the inground pool, it was there when they bought the house.
Frankly, most of the pools Ive seen here are INground pools.
The pool behind me is in a fenced yard but there is no fence around the pool. Its a rental house and when tenants move out they sometimes leave the fence gate wide open which seems to me it would put whoever owns the property/pool at a liability.
I would think that with a 2 almost 3 yr old being around, they wouldve moved that ladder. Seems dangerous as they can climb at that age but maybe not know how to swim/ alot of people start their kids young in swimming when they have a pool. Dont know about the Anthonys.

We know that Caylee did go in the pool often with close supervision and loved it. She apparently had special swimmers with inbuilt bouyancy aids (like a life jacket) and also arm bands I think, but does a toddler of her age understand what this special equipment is actually doing for them? I seriously doubt it. IMO it's quite likely that she would expect the same experience if she climbed into the pool, whatever she was wearing!

 

[Nelliebell]

I just don't subscribe to this fake pool or accidentally drowning theory at all. IIRC, both GA and CA state that they cannot remember which day they found the gate open and the stairs not where they should be. CA postulated this early on thinking that maybe there had been an accident but quickly dismissed it. In GA interviews with LE, he even states that he cannot remember when the pool/gate event happened.
My theory is simple. KC killed her daughter. She put duct on her mouth while she was still alive and put her in the trunk with chloroform. but again JMO

 

[Rumpole]

I just don't subscribe to this fake pool or accidentally drowning theory at all. IIRC, both GA and CA state that they cannot remember which day they found the gate open and the stairs not where they should be. CA postulated this early on thinking that maybe there had been an accident but quickly dismissed it. In GA interviews with LE, he even states that he cannot remember when the pool/gate event happened.
My theory is simple. KC killed her daughter. She put duct on her mouth while she was still alive and put her in the trunk with chloroform. but again JMO

I'm not adamant about the pool having to be involved. I more or less agree with you. I am just trying to account for the bits of "evidence" about the pool. I have said before that KC would have no trouble in explaining and spinning an accident. That is her forte. I don't think it was an accident so her plan A might have been faking an accident. Pool is obvious, but who knows what she might of considered? I think plan B was to bury the body (borrowed spade), but too hard and obvious. Plan C was dump the body.

 

[Devon]

I like your thinking, except........
Caylee could have been killed in the house, then the body taken to back yard. Perhaps layed down while KC considered what to do next. My "guess" is that she considered faking a pool accient. Perhaps got as far as placing the body in the pool (I don't know). From that point everything you say makes sense. When she decided to leave, she exited as you say via the side gate.

Yes, I agree that she could have died in the house, but it doesn't seem logical to me that KC would move the body from one location to another while she 'considered what to do next'. It's more logical to do the thinking first, and then the moving, so in your scenario I would think she would carry the body straight from the house to the pool. Also I don't think the cadaver dogs had any positive hits inside the house did they? Of course I guess it would all depend on how long the body actually lay in any particular location.