Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #4

[Marina2]

Doesn't make much sense to me.
I like Mark F. He does often seem to have good sources and tie info together well. Here he seems to be having a bad day? In fairness to him, it was early on and we have all learnt a lot since.

Thanks. I thought it was just me missing something. I can't go along with the fairness to Fuhrman though as this was taped only five days ago!

 

[Rumpole]

Thanks. I thought it was just me missing something. I can't go along with the fairness to Fuhrman though as this was taped only five days ago!

I missunderstood?
I thought it was older clip. That is bad!
What in heavens name is he on about?

 

[BondJamesBond]

I didn't know whether to put this in the GVS thread, Questions thread, or the Theory thread. Opted for Theories.

I was reading through some GVS transcripts and came across this part where Mark Fuhrman is discussing KC text messages from July 16th.
I don't understand how he comes to the conclusion he does. He feels the body was moved. Why? For one, his math is wrong when he counts back 32 days from the 16th. When I count back, I come to the 14th. How does he arrive at his conclusion that the body was placed in the trunk after GA saw it on the 24th? For some reason he thinks KC's text stating that Caylee has been missing for 32 days supports that her body was moved between the 24th and 30th?
Sorry to bring up an old show but I want to understand how he arrives at this since he is an investigator and should be able to give good insight. If anyone can explain his thought process, please do.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, as you go through these text messages, what do you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, I think the most disturbing one, Great, for Casey Anthony, as she says on the morning of the 16th, Caylee has been missing for 32 days.

That means that the child has been missing, and we know the child is dead. That places the time of death squarely on June 16. There is no doubt now that that is the date of the death, and this is a corroboration.

And now you can go from that timeline, the 16th, and start putting together the body, the body that was already in the putrification stage of decomposition, was placed in that vehicle after George Anthony saw it on the 24th.

So between the 24th and the 30th, the child was moved from its original location after death. That's what the most important in this text message is to me.

Link to transcript 01/22/09:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481851,00.html?sPage=fnc/ontherecord/caylee

You know, marina, I had an offline discussion on this very point.

I think my subject line was somethin' like "WTF!?!?!?!?"

Mark's usually on the mark, IMHO [pun thoroughly intended :bang:] He seemed very uneasy puting these comments out there. 90% of me wants to think he was expecting a different question and sorta morphed his answer and muffed it...10% of me wants to think...What if?...:waitasec:

 

[Rumpole]

I re_read and I think what good ole buddy Mark is saying is simply: he thinks GA saw the body in the trunk on 24th (That is debatable), and it must then have been moved (Dumped) before the car was towed on 30th. Apart from GA actually seeing the body, which is contentious, that is not an unreasonable scenario?

 

[Marina2]

I missunderstood?
I thought it was older clip. That is bad!
What in heavens name is he on about?

Like you, I've always afforded Mr Fuhrman a good amount of weight in what he says. He was either having a bad day as you said or he knows something we don't. :waitasec:

 

[Steely Dan]

From the very beginning the family and defense have been trying to pin Caylees death on anyone else. Remember GA brought up Jessie G's name during questioning by police. Of course theres Zanny the Nanny, Now Ricardo, also under suspicion have been the uitility worker who called police about the garbage bag and I think LP took a lie detector test for the FBI-
There have also been a list of former friends of Caseys who suspicion has been cast on because of their association with Casey and other ficticious persons Casey has made up.

What I would like to know is how JB is going to pull getting his client off. It's been established that Jeff who worked at Universal only knew Casey in passing and never had a son let alone one named Zachary! Theres no such person as Juliette Lewis that worked at Universal that Casey spoke of. Of course we all know about Zanny and her gang that Casey blamed- No such people- no occupied apartment by a nanny- Caseys lies about working at Universal plus the other lies she has given....

Another thing Cindy and George Have got to know that Casey is lying just by police investigating the information that Casey has given them so far, finding it false.

This case is a fraud and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon for their five minutes of fame.
Keep Baez down in Florida. We already have enough incompetant shifty lawyers up here in NY. We don't need any more.

For the record I am surprised Mark Garagos hasn't jumped on the Casey Bandwagon the way he did the Scott Peterson Bandwagon.
Maybe he is waiting for an invite.

I think Geragos would offer his assistance to JB but I think this case is too hinky for even him to take.

snipped

The lies will not get her convicted of murder, nor should they. We hope the forensic evidence will get her convicted, but you ask how is Baez going to get his client off (or attempt to). Let's not forget, he has a dream team working for the defense. Their job is to poke holes in the evidence presented. Huge police errors came to light in the OJ Simpson case, and the world was shocked when he was acquitted amid such strong evidence. Let's hope and pray the same thing doesn't happen here. A smart jury will look at what the evidence says, regardless of the smoke and mirrors presented by Baez and friends.

I disagree a little. I would be willing to convict of at manslaughter based on her statements alone. She was obviously trying to derail the investigation with her lies.

I didn't know whether to put this in the GVS thread, Questions thread, or the Theory thread. Opted for Theories.

I was reading through some GVS transcripts and came across this part where Mark Fuhrman is discussing KC text messages from July 16th.
I don't understand how he comes to the conclusion he does. He feels the body was moved. Why? For one, his math is wrong when he counts back 32 days from the 16th. When I count back, I come to the 14th. How does he arrive at his conclusion that the body was placed in the trunk after GA saw it on the 24th? For some reason he thinks KC's text stating that Caylee has been missing for 32 days supports that her body was moved between the 24th and 30th?
Sorry to bring up an old show but I want to understand how he arrives at this since he is an investigator and should be able to give good insight. If anyone can explain his thought process, please do.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, as you go through these text messages, what do you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, I think the most disturbing one, Great, for Casey Anthony, as she says on the morning of the 16th, Caylee has been missing for 32 days.

That means that the child has been missing, and we know the child is dead. That places the time of death squarely on June 16. There is no doubt now that that is the date of the death, and this is a corroboration.

And now you can go from that timeline, the 16th, and start putting together the body, the body that was already in the putrification stage of decomposition, was placed in that vehicle after George Anthony saw it on the 24th.

So between the 24th and the 30th, the child was moved from its original location after death. That's what the most important in this text message is to me.

Link to transcript 01/22/09:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481851,00.html?sPage=fnc/ontherecord/caylee

I have believe the body was moved after the cadaver dogs cleared the area. I don't know how that works with Fuhrman's timeline though.

 

[Marina2]

HP, BJB, and SD, thanks for your thoughts on the Fuhrman theory.

How he thinks that text message is good for KC's defense I'll never know.
Even if everything he said is true and the body was moved from the original place of death between the 24th and 30th it doesn't exonerate KC. She wasn't incarcerated at this time and would be the likely one to have moved it to where it was found.

At first reading I thought there is no way the body was in the trunk and moved that late in the month. But, I guess the body could have been in the trunk from the TOD until the 18th, 19th then taken out and put somewhere else. Between the 24th and the 30th I suppose it could have been bagged well enough to contain the more advanced stage of decomposition, put back in the trunk and taken for a quick trip to the end of the road. I've had it firmly in my mind that the body was dumped on the 18th to 20th.

 

[Steely Dan]

HP, BJB, and SD, thanks for your thoughts on the Fuhrman theory.

How he thinks that text message is good for KC's defense I'll never know.
Even if everything he said is true and the body was moved from the original place of death between the 24th and 30th it doesn't exonerate KC. She wasn't incarcerated at this time and would be the likely one to have moved it to where it was found.

At first reading I thought there is no way the body was in the trunk and moved that late in the month. But, I guess the body could have been in the trunk from the TOD until the 18th, 19th then taken out and put somewhere else. Between the 24th and the 30th I suppose it could have been bagged well enough to contain the more advanced stage of decomposition, put back in the trunk and taken for a quick trip to the end of the road. I've had it firmly in my mind that the body was dumped on the 18th to 20th.

I think LA moved the body for her. JMO.

 

[Indigo]

HP, BJB, and SD, thanks for your thoughts on the Fuhrman theory.

How he thinks that text message is good for KC's defense I'll never know.
Even if everything he said is true and the body was moved from the original place of death between the 24th and 30th it doesn't exonerate KC. She wasn't incarcerated at this time and would be the likely one to have moved it to where it was found.

At first reading I thought there is no way the body was in the trunk and moved that late in the month. But, I guess the body could have been in the trunk from the TOD until the 18th, 19th then taken out and put somewhere else. Between the 24th and the 30th I suppose it could have been bagged well enough to contain the more advanced stage of decomposition, put back in the trunk and taken for a quick trip to the end of the road. I've had it firmly in my mind that the body was dumped on the 18th to 20th.

I'm still fixed on the 18th. I think the chloroform was trapped in the trunk environment early on before it had much of a chance to dissipate. It may even have eaten through the plastic bag--causing decomp leakage into the trunk.

The sodium levels (indicating less than 2.6 days), Casey borrowing the shovel and her cell phone pings all make this day stand out to me.

 

[Rumpole]

Outline: What happened to Caylee.
Going back thru this thread, I like the scenario that BondJamesBond proposes, combined with some of the additions by JWG, but I do not consider it likely that KC would rearrange the body away from the A’s, and so did not bag or dump it on 19th. I accept the need to test various aspects of any theorised scenario against the details we do know, especially from ping details and computer forensics, and other known facts as well. I hope my scenario does not have any aspects that the known facts exclude.
The suggestion that KC was using Lee’s place is compelling, as is the likelihood that critical phone calls involved seeking, but failing, to find willing baby sitters. I wont concede that there is compelling evidence to support the use of chloroform, but misuse of patent or prescription medicine is a possibility (a possibility, but not essential for my scenario to work).

I think, on the afternoon of 16th, before KC arrived at AL’s, Caylee did end up in the trunk of KC’s car (drugged or not), gagged and bound. KC had been repeatedly thwarted in her efforts to arrange a baby sitter. She finally “lost it” and decided to throw Caylee in the trunk and do without a sitter. Drugs may, (or may not), have been administered as Bond suggests, but if KC did THINK she found Caylee dead at 7:20 pm 16th, then she misdiagnosed, and Caylee was still alive. Perhaps in a coma, and close to death, but alive. I think Caylee’s actual TOD was close to mid-day 17th. I do not think KC rearranged, or dumped the body on 19th. I think KC was keeping away from her own car. Perhaps sussing out a dump site or establishing an alibi with CS?
I think the visits to the Anthony house and backing in on 17th and 18th were to possibly bury Caylee, or perhaps fake a drowning or whatever. KC could see nothing was really practical or believable. At some stage the body was placed in a laundry bag, but that did little to help with decomposition leakage, smell etc. Finally on her third visit (20th), KC decided that the body needed to be bagged in plastic to contain decomposition. She may have dumped the body as she left that day, or just left it in the trunk until dumping it 23rd or 24th. I can not decide. I also have a sneaking feeling that she may have been contemplating some sort of incineration of the body, or even the car with the body inside, but that’s a guess. If that was a thought then the thought went when GA nearly caught her and took the gas cans back. She would have dumped the body immediately after that incident if she still had it.

 

[TxMother67]

Outline: What happened to Caylee.
Going back thru this thread, I like the scenario that BondJamesBond proposes, combined with some of the additions by JWG, but I do not consider it likely that KC would rearrange the body away from the A’s, and so did not bag or dump it on 19th. I accept the need to test various aspects of any theorised scenario against the details we do know, especially from ping details and computer forensics, and other known facts as well. I hope my scenario does not have any aspects that the known facts exclude.
The suggestion that KC was using Lee’s place is compelling, as is the likelihood that critical phone calls involved seeking, but failing, to find willing baby sitters. I wont concede that there is compelling evidence to support the use of chloroform, but misuse of patent or prescription medicine is a possibility (a possibility, but not essential for my scenario to work).

I think, on the afternoon of 16th, before KC arrived at AL’s, Caylee did end up in the trunk of KC’s car (drugged or not), gagged and bound. KC had been repeatedly thwarted in her efforts to arrange a baby sitter. She finally “lost it” and decided to throw Caylee in the trunk and do without a sitter. Drugs may, or may not, have been administered as Bond suggests, but if KC did THINK she found Caylee dead at 7:20 pm 16th, then she misdiagnosed, and Caylee was still alive. Perhaps in a coma, and close to death, but alive. I think Caylee’s actual TOD was close to mid-day 17th. I do not think KC rearranged, or dumped the body on 19th. I think KC was keeping away from her own car. Perhaps sussing out a dump site or establishing an alibi with CS?
I think the visits to the Anthony house and backing in on 17th and 18th were to possibly bury Caylee, or perhaps fake a drowning or whatever. KC could see nothing was really practical or believable. At some stage the body was placed in a laundry bag, but that did little to help with decomposition leakage, smell etc. Finally on her third visit (20th), KC decided that the body needed to be bagged in plastic to contain decomposition. She may have dumped the body as she left that day, or just left it in the trunk until dumping it 23rd or 24th. I can not decide. I also have a sneaking feeling that she may have been contemplating some sort of incineration of the body, or even the car with the body inside, but that’s a guess. If that was a thought then the thought went when GA nearly caught her and took the gas cans back. She would have dumped the body immediately after that incident if she still had it.

Interesting!!! When did the duct tape come in and why? Like my Granny would say "You have a good 'thinker'!"

 

[suspicious1]

I think LA moved the body for her. JMO.

I think so too. BUT when would he have had the chance to do it. My guess was after her first arrest. What are your thoughts?

 

[Steely Dan]

I think so too. BUT when would he have had the chance to do it. My guess was after her first arrest. What are your thoughts?

IMO, it would have been after the cadaver dogs swept the area. I don't know when that was though.

If the witness' that claim to have seen a man and woman by the airport are to be believed then I would put it in between those times.

My theory is that they did originally bury her by the airport but when those witness' came forward they became concerned that a search would be done in that area and decided to move the body to a place that had already been searched.

I believe it was one day very early in the morning that LA transported the body and just threw it a little away from the road because he was afraid of being seen. He figured that since the area had been swept already nobody would look there anyway.

The only problem with this theory is if cadaver dogs were taken to the spot by the airport and they didn't hit out there then the body was probably never there. I don't know if cadaver dogs ever went by the airport or not.

I think LA became nervous about somebody finding the bag when the vegetation started to thin in the fall and he hired DC to go out and get the bag and move it to the empty house formerly owned by a Gonzalez family. I believe it was LA on the phone with DC. Just my theory.

 

[txsvicki]

Spot on, Lanie! (haha, that's the new trendy thing to say.) I also remember the former homicide detective that's always on NG, the bald guy, saying don't mess with chloroform unless you want to kill someone. KC used a potent and lethal amount of chloroform to off her daughter. In the past (around March when the searches first started), she may have seriously thought about offing her parents too, but didn't have the guts to do it back then.

I agree. So far, the chloroform is a big part of the evidence.

 

[natsound]

I think LA moved the body for her. JMO.

I disagree. I think LA, GA and CA love Caylee. Their behavior defending KC right now is an instinctive reaction to protect family. None of them are evil like KC. None of them are heartless enough to dig up the dead body of their niece/granddaughter and move it, and go on with life. None of them would risk spending life in prison to help KC in such a manner either.

I believe the body was dumped where it was found, and due to a series of oversights it wasn't found until December 11. KC acted alone, and there was no daisy chain leading RK to the remains.

If LE are really preparing to charge LA with obstruction, I believe it's borne out of the jailhouse conversations he had with KC... asking her to use hand signals to elude the camera. JMO!

 

[natsound]

Outline: What happened to Caylee.
Going back thru this thread, I like the scenario that BondJamesBond proposes, combined with some of the additions by JWG, but I do not consider it likely that KC would rearrange the body away from the A’s, and so did not bag or dump it on 19th. I accept the need to test various aspects of any theorised scenario against the details we do know, especially from ping details and computer forensics, and other known facts as well. I hope my scenario does not have any aspects that the known facts exclude.
The suggestion that KC was using Lee’s place is compelling, as is the likelihood that critical phone calls involved seeking, but failing, to find willing baby sitters. I wont concede that there is compelling evidence to support the use of chloroform, but misuse of patent or prescription medicine is a possibility (a possibility, but not essential for my scenario to work).

I think, on the afternoon of 16th, before KC arrived at AL’s, Caylee did end up in the trunk of KC’s car (drugged or not), gagged and bound. KC had been repeatedly thwarted in her efforts to arrange a baby sitter. She finally “lost it” and decided to throw Caylee in the trunk and do without a sitter. Drugs may, (or may not), have been administered as Bond suggests, but if KC did THINK she found Caylee dead at 7:20 pm 16th, then she misdiagnosed, and Caylee was still alive. Perhaps in a coma, and close to death, but alive. I think Caylee’s actual TOD was close to mid-day 17th. I do not think KC rearranged, or dumped the body on 19th. I think KC was keeping away from her own car. Perhaps sussing out a dump site or establishing an alibi with CS?
I think the visits to the Anthony house and backing in on 17th and 18th were to possibly bury Caylee, or perhaps fake a drowning or whatever. KC could see nothing was really practical or believable. At some stage the body was placed in a laundry bag, but that did little to help with decomposition leakage, smell etc. Finally on her third visit (20th), KC decided that the body needed to be bagged in plastic to contain decomposition. She may have dumped the body as she left that day, or just left it in the trunk until dumping it 23rd or 24th. I can not decide. I also have a sneaking feeling that she may have been contemplating some sort of incineration of the body, or even the car with the body inside, but that’s a guess. If that was a thought then the thought went when GA nearly caught her and took the gas cans back. She would have dumped the body immediately after that incident if she still had it.

So do you believe Caylee was intentionally murdered?

Interesting theory, HP. I've long believed the backing into the garage was to try to clean the trunk, but since dirt was found in the trunk I'm wondering if she tried to clean it at all. Perhaps the backing in was, at first, to try to bury Caylee, then on the last day to gather the bags, the tape, and the sticker.

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

I disagree. I think LA, GA and CA love Caylee. Their behavior defending KC right now is an instinctive reaction to protect family. None of them are evil like KC. None of them are heartless enough to dig up the dead body of their niece/granddaughter and move it, and go on with life. None of them would risk spending life in prison to help KC in such a manner either.

I believe the body was dumped where it was found, and due to a series of oversights it wasn't found until December 11. KC acted alone, and there was no daisy chain leading RK to the remains.

If LE are really preparing to charge LA with obstruction, I believe it's borne out of the jailhouse conversations he had with KC... asking her to use hand signals to elude the camera. JMO!

Totally agree!!!

I think the A's may be charged for giving false statements or OJ but I don't think they ever laid eyes on the trash bag that had Caylee inside.

 

[Marina2]

Outline: What happened to Caylee.
Going back thru this thread, I like the scenario that BondJamesBond proposes, combined with some of the additions by JWG, but I do not consider it likely that KC would rearrange the body away from the A’s, and so did not bag or dump it on 19th. I accept the need to test various aspects of any theorised scenario against the details we do know, especially from ping details and computer forensics, and other known facts as well. I hope my scenario does not have any aspects that the known facts exclude.
The suggestion that KC was using Lee’s place is compelling, as is the likelihood that critical phone calls involved seeking, but failing, to find willing baby sitters. I wont concede that there is compelling evidence to support the use of chloroform, but misuse of patent or prescription medicine is a possibility (a possibility, but not essential for my scenario to work).

I think, on the afternoon of 16th, before KC arrived at AL’s, Caylee did end up in the trunk of KC’s car (drugged or not), gagged and bound. KC had been repeatedly thwarted in her efforts to arrange a baby sitter. She finally “lost it” and decided to throw Caylee in the trunk and do without a sitter. Drugs may, (or may not), have been administered as Bond suggests, but if KC did THINK she found Caylee dead at 7:20 pm 16th, then she misdiagnosed, and Caylee was still alive. Perhaps in a coma, and close to death, but alive. I think Caylee’s actual TOD was close to mid-day 17th. I do not think KC rearranged, or dumped the body on 19th. I think KC was keeping away from her own car. Perhaps sussing out a dump site or establishing an alibi with CS?
I think the visits to the Anthony house and backing in on 17th and 18th were to possibly bury Caylee, or perhaps fake a drowning or whatever. KC could see nothing was really practical or believable. At some stage the body was placed in a laundry bag, but that did little to help with decomposition leakage, smell etc. Finally on her third visit (20th), KC decided that the body needed to be bagged in plastic to contain decomposition. She may have dumped the body as she left that day, or just left it in the trunk until dumping it 23rd or 24th. I can not decide. I also have a sneaking feeling that she may have been contemplating some sort of incineration of the body, or even the car with the body inside, but that’s a guess. If that was a thought then the thought went when GA nearly caught her and took the gas cans back. She would have dumped the body immediately after that incident if she still had it.

Hp, I've had similar thoughts as yours. The thought of Caylee being misdiagnosed weighed heavily on my mind for awhile. I don't even remember why I discarded it now. I think I was trying to use it as a way to extend the disposal date to the 27th and realized Caylee would have died of hyperthermia within hours in that trunk. Still, it could have happened that way and extended the TOD further into June, maybe a day as you propose. Something to think about. The gas and incinerating the body was a thought I had for awhile. After reading the latest documents I can believe she contemplated this since her gas gauge worked fine.

As far as being repeatedly thwarted in her efforts to find a babysitter I don't see the flurry of calls this way. It seems KC would have called many more people to find a sitter before giving up to the point of killing Caylee. I know, we're not talking about a normal person but still... KC had a lot of friends and it seems she could have found a sitter with a little more effort.

It's amazing how all of us can take the same data and come up with theories that are so different. Most of them are very workable too.
Bond has managed to include the chloroform in his theory, something I badly want to include with mine but I haven't found a way to work it in, yet! JWG's theory is so simple and normal. I could totally adopt it if I weren't hopelessly married to mine!

FWIW, I want to tell everyone how incredibly smart I think you all are.
I love reading the theories thread. :clap:

 

[ibyoungr]

I do not think LA went back and moved the body. Why?

Because he would have buried it. Why just lay it on top of the ground. Also LE believes the body has been there before Faye because the bones were scattered with the pattern from the water flow as the water receded in that area.

Lee is in trouble for sending out the PI. I believe he was talking to him on the phone. Lee had info he did not share with the police.

 

[BondJamesBond]

OK...some fascinating reading on the "All about chloroform.." thread.

Based on what I'm reading there. I hafta change my mind to Rx o.d. aggravated by heat-stress/dehydration, and/or asphyxiation due to the tape & vomiting brought on by same as the contributing cause(s) of death unless/until we get more info released to suggest otherwise.

In a nutshell...the elevated chloroform in the trunk was the result of the oxygen-defficient environment it created as decomp gasses being produced displaced the air. This had the effect of increasing the level of chloroform naturally occuring from human decomposition above typical levels. Chloroform searches on the pc were coincidental.

IMHO, Casey used OTC(s), as JWG has suggested, and/or Rx left from her bruised rib prescription in May to sedate Caylee and leave her in the Pontiac (or, plausible, albeit less likely, Amy's totalled car under a car cover) outside Tony's Apt. The duct tape was necessary owing to the not-fast-enough acting OTC/Rx and Casey's desire to get it done covertly. :furious: