Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #7

[logicalgirl]

While we will probably never know what really happened, there are certain facts that can be deduced. I have concluded the following:

1. Chloraform was used/made in the trunk of caseys car.
A. Computer searches in March on how to make chloraform
B. Unusually high levels of chloraform found in the trunk, prompting a lab email

2. Pre or post mortem, the duct tape applied was meant to be permanent
A. tape went well into Caylees hair and had to be cut out

3. Casey knew Caylee was decomposing in her trunk and attemped to disguise the odor
A. Conversations and txts to AH claiming an animal was plastered to the car frame
B. Conversation with Lee on 7/15/08 where she claimed it was squirrels in the engine
C. Her placement of a bag of Tony's garbage in the trunk as another excuse

I could go on, but these three facts coupled with her deliberate cover up of Caylee's whereabouts to friends, family and finally law enforcement is enough for me to conclude Casey planned to drug and murder her child and cover up her tracks.

Well, my younger sister ( I also have an older one also LOL) died two years ago very suddenly. Two things I did not do? :waitasec:

I did not rush out and get a tattoo, and I did not go dancing at a nightclub in boots and a short dress. And oh yes, I did not go to the local movie rental place and rent movies about sisters who suddenly drop dead. So do I think I would do that if my own baby girl was missing (or killed by my own hand)? Somehow I think not.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[quadlatte]

Before I begin this theory, I'll begin by saying I haven't thought it all the way through yet but will do once I'm alone later tonight.

What if there was no rage induced killing or accidental incident? Given that Casey didn't pack any clothes for the baby when she left the home (only her own things and claiming the imaginanny already had some), this makes me assume that ICA knew that she wouldn't be needing the babies things.

This may not mean she was already dead, just that ICA knew that she soon would be (cold premeditated murder).

Is it possible that the duct tape and the trunk were actually the murder weapon and scene? Did she just silence her with the tape and put her in the trunk until she passed away?

Depending on what time Caylee was placed in there, and because death would not have been immediate, it would allow for the 2.6 days of decomp and a later date dumping of the body.

Not sure this theory holds water, but I'll give it some more thought once I have refreshed my own memory of the evidence inc phone pings.

After rereading several interviews, this kind of scenario keeps popping into my mind, too. Especially if it was the alleged big fight the night of the 15th, and KC waited all the way until the next afternoon to enact her plan...:furious:

Also, the shovel thing - when I was rereading some of the interviews, the detectives were asking George about the smaller freezer in the garage, which was about 4 cubic feet, according to him, IIRC.

The shovel would have made the perfect implement to slide a small frozen body (I know, sorry) from a freezer into the back of a trunk backed into a garage... That would explain the lack of forensics on the shovel as fluids would not have thawed until in the trunk...:waitasec:

Not necessarily a complete theory, but it fills a few holes for me.

 

[joypath]

After rereading several interviews, this kind of scenario keeps popping into my mind, too. Especially if it was the alleged big fight the night of the 15th, and KC waited all the way until the next afternoon to enact her plan...:furious:

Also, the shovel thing - when I was rereading some of the interviews, the detectives were asking George about the smaller freezer in the garage, which was about 4 cubic feet, according to him, IIRC.

The shovel would have made the perfect implement to slide a small frozen body (I know, sorry) from a freezer into the back of a trunk backed into a garage... That would explain the lack of forensics on the shovel as fluids would not have thawed until in the trunk...:waitasec:

Not necessarily a complete theory, but it fills a few holes for me.

Could I just quietly repost something for many moons ago that might help

Originally Posted by flourish [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4633546#post4633546"]

[/ame]
Makes me wonder if the bones wouldn't hold some sort of trace of being frozen for a period of time...?

and I responded 1-4-2009:

"If I may respond: the inner marrow celluar material could have exhibited definite damage: the normal osmosis of the cell would have been interrupted by crystallization vs osmosis and dehydration. Histiocytes would have been abnormally shaped in the os, the bones themselves MIGHT have exhibited "stress" fractures if they were damaged as the corpse were "banged about" while in a brittle/frozen state (note: this would NOT be a condition similar to the rigor mortis state!). Had Caylee been frozen after death, retained in that state and then dumped at any time other than the end of June date, the entomological and botanical data STILL has to be explained away by the defense! And nope, you can't "transplant" vegetation and pupa on a corpse to upset the TOD/DOD unless you're REALLY REALLY REALLY a genius forensic specialist in EVERYTHING and very very very DARN lucky to all that "faked data" take root and live! "



The additional comments regarding ent. & bot. studies were in reference to another poster's not that smart issues claiming in generalities that all dating of the State's evidence was performed via pictures.:furious:



Now let me just add that: had ANY OF THE abnormalities been noted in the bone it would have been noted, had that been the case, the aforementioned freezer would have been tested and taken into custody by LE. To the best of our knowledge, neither behavior occurred.



CAN WE PUT THIS ONE TO REST?

 

[RainyGirl]

Well, my younger sister ( I also have an older one also LOL) died two years ago very suddenly. Two things I did not do? :waitasec:

I did not rush out and get a tattoo, and I did not go dancing at a nightclub in boots and a short dress. And oh yes, I did not go to the local movie rental place and rent movies about sisters who suddenly drop dead. So do I think I would do that if my own baby girl was missing (or killed by my own hand)? Somehow I think not.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

((((((Hugs, LG)))))) I am so sorry for your loss. You are a terrific asset to WS and to victims worldwide!

 

[SideKick]

I just have to get this off my chest!

Please tell my why on earth anyone would type into Google. 'Shovel' ??
A. does the person not know what it is?
B. does the person not know what a shovel can do?

For any purpose I may add... This one really stumps me big time.

~ If Casey typed this in google with murder in mind, I still don't get the stupidity and meaningless of this act on google.

 

[logicalgirl]

((((((Hugs, LG)))))) I am so sorry for your loss. You are a terrific asset to WS and to victims worldwide!

Thank you RainyGirl - it was a huge shock - massive heart attack - I admit I still grieve terribly and words not spoken in time.
And :blowkiss: for your kind words re WS

 

[quadlatte]

Could I just quietly repost something for many moons ago that might help

Originally Posted by flourish
Makes me wonder if the bones wouldn't hold some sort of trace of being frozen for a period of time...?

and I responded 1-4-2009:

"If I may respond: the inner marrow celluar material could have exhibited definite damage: the normal osmosis of the cell would have been interrupted by crystallization vs osmosis and dehydration. Histiocytes would have been abnormally shaped in the os, the bones themselves MIGHT have exhibited "stress" fractures if they were damaged as the corpse were "banged about" while in a brittle/frozen state (note: this would NOT be a condition similar to the rigor mortis state!). Had Caylee been frozen after death, retained in that state and then dumped at any time other than the end of June date, the entomological and botanical data STILL has to be explained away by the defense! And nope, you can't "transplant" vegetation and pupa on a corpse to upset the TOD/DOD unless you're REALLY REALLY REALLY a genius forensic specialist in EVERYTHING and very very very DARN lucky to all that "faked data" take root and live! "



The additional comments regarding ent. & bot. studies were in reference to another poster's not that smart issues claiming in generalities that all dating of the State's evidence was performed via pictures.:furious:



Now let me just add that: had ANY OF THE abnormalities been noted in the bone it would have been noted, had that been the case, the aforementioned freezer would have been tested and taken into custody by LE. To the best of our knowledge, neither behavior occurred.



CAN WE PUT THIS ONE TO REST?

I guess I would "put it to rest" if I were indeed convinced that the marrow inside the bone would in fact be frozen throughout during the period of time in which she likely would have utilized a freezer.

I realize it takes time for things to completely freeze, especially since we're not talking about liquid nitrogen and such a small freezer would probably only serve to refrigerate...

And I'm not necessarily certain that a freezer couldn't have been replaced.

But again, I was just speculating about my own theory, I'm not married to it but I'm not throwing it away based upon your information either, sorry. Add me to the list of posters with "not so smart" ideas then.:blushing:

 

[joypath]

quadlatte: absolutely no disrespect in my response, I am indicating an answer based on physiological changes that occur within the human body throughout the mortem periods in general and the contracture of the celluar material would be evident under the microscope as the change in fluid dynamics of the osmotic fragility. Total and complete freezing of the marrow would eventually occur as you stated if time and temperature were permitted.

I'm just attempting to provide information based on experience...(nope, I haven't frozen any bodies lately)

 

[countzero]

quadlatte: absolutely no disrespect in my response, I am indicating an answer based on physiological changes that occur within the human body throughout the mortem periods in general and the contracture of the celluar material would be evident under the microscope as the change in fluid dynamics of the osmotic fragility. Total and complete freezing of the marrow would eventually occur as you stated if time and temperature were permitted.

I'm just attempting to provide information based on experience...(nope, I haven't frozen any bodies lately)

Once again, your expertise is spot on ... in more ways than one!:dance:

 

[Horace Finklestein]

While we will probably never know what really happened, there are certain facts that can be deduced. I have concluded the following:

1. Chloraform was used/made in the trunk of caseys car.
A. Computer searches in March on how to make chloraform
B. Unusually high levels of chloraform found in the trunk, prompting a lab email

2. Pre or post mortem, the duct tape applied was meant to be permanent
A. tape went well into Caylees hair and had to be cut out

3. Casey knew Caylee was decomposing in her trunk and attemped to disguise the odor
A. Conversations and txts to AH claiming an animal was plastered to the car frame
B. Conversation with Lee on 7/15/08 where she claimed it was squirrels in the engine
C. Her placement of a bag of Tony's garbage in the trunk as another excuse

I could go on, but these three facts coupled with her deliberate cover up of Caylee's whereabouts to friends, family and finally law enforcement is enough for me to conclude Casey planned to drug and murder her child and cover up her tracks.

I agree. There is NO reason whatsoever for her to lie about squirrels being plastered to the frame of her car (so much for pizza) other than to create something to explain the smell.

Also, the car was tested all over and NO remains of any kind of animal were found.

 

[Gma Kat]

Well, my younger sister ( I also have an older one also LOL) died two years ago very suddenly. Two things I did not do? :waitasec:

I did not rush out and get a tattoo, and I did not go dancing at a nightclub in boots and a short dress. And oh yes, I did not go to the local movie rental place and rent movies about sisters who suddenly drop dead. So do I think I would do that if my own baby girl was missing (or killed by my own hand)? Somehow I think not.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Sorry about your younger sister Logicalgirl. My goodness, something that horrible happened to you right when all this was in full-gear. Just wanted to say so sorry.

 

[LambChop]

One of the things that is so great about WS is that everyone here seeks the truth and facts in any matter. So sometimes when we speculate what could have happened in our minds and someone posts who has far more knowledge about the subject we are speculating on with valid and scientific materialsm, we all benefit from that knowledge and I say all without exception. While speculating can be sleuthing it will never replace tried and true scientific information that comes from those in-the-know here.

So no one should take offense because after 2 years we've just about heard it all and sometimes it's been over and over and over and over. There is a lot of information in the threads and some are well worth the time to read them. jmo

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I think her mother insulted her about her mothering and might have at one point said to her your no mother, your nothing more than a nanny to Caylee. I think they had awful arguments in regards to Caylee. I also think this was in part the reason Caylee died. In Caseys mind getting rid of Caylee would fix everything between her and her mother since the subject was at the center of their troubles. The kidnapping thing was the only way to have that happen and not have her mother turn on her forever. That poor baby was at the heart of an awful tug of war. So to stay on topic I think this played a huge part in Caylees murder. IMO

Plus the amount of importance the shallow Anthonys put on "stuff" (stuffed animals, absurd costumes, other junk, etc) and seeing Casey unable to provide Caylee with said stuff, I bet they did have some arguments!

 

[quadlatte]

quadlatte: absolutely no disrespect in my response, I am indicating an answer based on physiological changes that occur within the human body throughout the mortem periods in general and the contracture of the celluar material would be evident under the microscope as the change in fluid dynamics of the osmotic fragility. Total and complete freezing of the marrow would eventually occur as you stated if time and temperature were permitted.

Snipped & bolded by ql:

With respect, I realize and understand exactly what you were basing your answer on.

The sentence that I bolded above is why I still question whether a freezer could have been temporarily utilized because with such a small space and with such a small window of time, I would argue that the body would NOT freeze solid, i.e. to the bone and therefore the factors that you so eloquently listed above would not come into play...

Further, I'm not convinced that there would have to necessarily be a lot of jostling of the body during the transfer from freezer to car - the shovel would make a perfect tool - so the intracellular shearing and whatnot you described in the last post would not necessarily factor in either...

Again, JMO.

 

[suepitzl]

IMO, there is no way that happened.
She wrapped her in the pooh blanket on the 16th of June, placed her in the trunk and after 2 or 3 days, double bagged her in 2 trash bags and then in the laundry bag to quell the fluid leakage........maybe then placing her in the spare tire compartment to hide her and figure out what to do next.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Bumping the current 'theories' thread to help some other threads stay on-topic. Discuss how you think it all came together here.

 

[LunaticFringe]

IMO, there is no way that happened.
She wrapped her in the pooh blanket on the 16th of June, placed her in the trunk and after 2 or 3 days, double bagged her in 2 trash bags and then in the laundry bag to quell the fluid leakage........maybe then placing her in the spare tire compartment to hide her and figure out what to do next.

That is my thinking as well.I believe when she backed her car up into the garage and borrowed the shovel from the neighbor is when she put her in the trash bags.

 

[starburst]

I have often wondered about Kaylee's bio. mystery father. Why wouldnt the family of the supposed deceased father want to know that Kaylee was their grandchild? Why havent we heard if DNA has confirmed this father was hers? I ask because, there have been some inuendo's concering sexual abuse in the home. I find it interesting that Kaylee's name is a combination of Kay-cee and her brother Lee. His speech at the funeral made me think there might be some dark secret that he was trying to walk around. Perhaps the abuse came from a brother/sister affair? It does happen! This would truly be a secret that the family would not want out, or Kaycee herself. Why would they just "believe" her story of the conveniently deceased one night stand. The family of this man say they do not know her.

I have always believed that Kaycee did not intentionally kill Kaylee, but had begun to use ether as a babysitter. Her at the time boyfriend, admitted that he rarely saw the child, and yet Kaycee was spending the night at his home and Kaycee would tell him the child was at the babysitters. We know there was no babysitter that has been verified, so where was Kaylee all those times when Kaycee was out at the clubs and with her boyfriend spending the night? Could Kaycee have been knocking the child out with ether and either leaving her in a locked car/or trunk while she partied? Boyfriend said she would leave in the morning claiming to go to work and get the child.

Florida weather is hot...if Kaycee got overly intoxicated one night and slept late, logic would tell you the little girl could have gotten overheated in the car/trunk. Or, as the child grew immune to the dose of ether administered, and Kaycee wanted more time with her man, she increased the amount of ether she exposed the child to, and the ether alone could have killed the child. I hope she didnt place the sleeping child in the trunk, but if the child died in the back seat, even, it would make sense that she would put the body in the trunk to figure out what to do.

It is reported that there were numerous phone calls to a parent, one after the other that went unanswered on one particular day. Could that have been the day the accident happened? She may have panicked and tried to call someone, and being unable to reach anyone just decided to handle the situation on her own. Thus, began the lies and all that followed. Would be curious to know what time the phone calls started and what the temperatures were that day in the area.

It was reported that the grandparents had not seen Kaycee or Kaylee for about a month prior due to a fight. If Kaycee started the ether babysitting service about then, she would not have brought Kaylee around because Kaylee probably would have told her grandparents about the icky stuff her mom was putting on her face, etc.

I know there was a search done on the ether, I would be curious to know how far back that was prior to Kaycee leaving home. Perhaps the ether was a good babysitter for her for quite some time.

Whatever the outcome, she is responsible for the death and clearly has no remorse. Something happened to her to make her short on compassion and feelings..incest would be a good answer. The brother Lee has something to hide...I think its shame.

 

[Scamperoo]

I guess my theory on what happened to Caylee is a little out there but here goes anyway.

I believe that on the night of the 15th there was a huge argument that may have turned violent, I think that this happened in front of Caylee and she was extremely traumatized by watching her mother and grandmother fighting.
I think Casey stormed off with Caylee to the bedroom, Caylee, who was by this time probably sobbing and maybe even asking for her grandma. I think Casey was enraged at her wanting her grandma and just wanted to shut Caylee up, so she got the duct tape and taped her mouth.
I think then she went even further, when Caylee tried to pull the tape off her face Casey then taped her hands so she couldn't. She just didn't want Cindy to hear Caylee calling for her, then she put her god knows where (cupboard, under the bed etc.) so she wouldn't have to look at her and ignored any sounds she was making.
At that point I think Caylee was in such overheated distress that she vomited, inhaled it and died. I don't believe this event impacted Casey to any great extent.

I believe Casey found her before morning as she allowed no one to enter her room. Cindy had to telephone her cell from the house phone to try and talk to her. Casey let it go to voice mail and then immediately checked her mothers message.
I think George's claim of seeing Caylee was more creative thinking concocted by Cindy and George to make it seem like everything was normal at the Anthony home. I think Cindy is guilt driven and doesn't want her part in this revealed, so she is doing what she can to obfuscate everything in an attempt to hide her and her daughters dysfunctional relationship and/or the molestation accusations.

I have a feeling Cindy is trying to placate Casey but why I can only imagine, or maybe I'm giving credit where none is due...

 

[AZlawyer]

I guess my theory on what happened to Caylee is a little out there but here goes anyway.

I believe that on the night of the 15th there was a huge argument that may have turned violent, I think that this happened in front of Caylee and she was extremely traumatized by watching her mother and grandmother fighting.
I think Casey stormed off with Caylee to the bedroom, Caylee, who was by this time probably sobbing and maybe even asking for her grandma. I think Casey was enraged at her wanting her grandma and just wanted to shut Caylee up, so she got the duct tape and taped her mouth.
I think then she went even further, when Caylee tried to pull the tape off her face Casey then taped her hands so she couldn't. She just didn't want Cindy to hear Caylee calling for her, then she put her god knows where (cupboard, under the bed etc.) so she wouldn't have to look at her and ignored any sounds she was making.
At that point I think Caylee was in such overheated distress that she vomited, inhaled it and died. I don't believe this event impacted Casey to any great extent.

I believe Casey found her before morning as she allowed no one to enter her room. Cindy had to telephone her cell from the house phone to try and talk to her. Casey let it go to voice mail and then immediately checked her mothers message.
I think George's claim of seeing Caylee was more creative thinking concocted by Cindy and George to make it seem like everything was normal at the Anthony home. I think Cindy is guilt driven and doesn't want her part in this revealed, so she is doing what she can to obfuscate everything in an attempt to hide her and her daughters dysfunctional relationship and/or the molestation accusations.

I have a feeling Cindy is trying to placate Casey but why I can only imagine, or maybe I'm giving credit where none is due...

This is a good theory! Just to clarify, though, Casey did not check any messages after the 7:45 am phone call to her cell phone from the home phone. In fact, it looks like no message was left, as there is no "voicemail waiting" indication in the detailed cell phone records. So the call is still consistent with the possibility that Casey was just calling her own phone to make it ring so she could find it.