Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #7

[LancelotLink]

I have wondered if GA saw (or smelled) something in the trunk on the day that KC came home and she and GA discussed the gas can. He wanted to go in the trunk and retrieve the wedge for the wheel to change CA's tire (IIRC). KC went outside and beat him to her car and said 'here is your f'ing can.' KC did not want him going in her trunk that day. I have wondered if he saw or smelled anything in that trunk and discussed it with her or argued with her about it and isn't admitting it to anyone? That has really bugged me throughout this whole ordeal. :banghead:

I'm beginning to wonder just how much of this really happened and how much is elaborate garbage made up by George. I know the cans were stolen and I know they were returned, I'm just having a problem with the whole tire wedge story. Once again, George's stories and his actions do not match up. He wants everyone to think he was suspicious of her about her job, lying, stealing, etc. and yet there was not one thing that he did that I can see to bolster these claims.
I wonder if he made up the wedge story to steer the investigation away from the trunk of the car.
"Nope. nothing there. Move along."

 

[hannahsnana]

I'm beginning to wonder just how much of this really happened and how much is elaborate garbage made up by George. I know the cans were stolen and I know they were returned, I'm just having a problem with the whole tire wedge story. Once again, George's stories and his actions do not match up. He wants everyone to think he was suspicious of her about her job, lying, stealing, etc. and yet there was not one thing that he did that I can see to bolster these claims.
I wonder if he made up the wedge story to steer the investigation away from the trunk of the car.
"Nope. nothing there. Move along."

Quite possible. If I remember correctly, this was the second story George told about this day. After he had time to 'consult' with Cindy, they came up with this one.

 

[jon_burrows]

I have wondered if GA saw (or smelled) something in the trunk on the day that KC came home and she and GA discussed the gas can. He wanted to go in the trunk and retrieve the wedge for the wheel to change CA's tire (IIRC). KC went outside and beat him to her car and said 'here is your f'ing can.' KC did not want him going in her trunk that day. I have wondered if he saw or smelled anything in that trunk and discussed it with her or argued with her about it and isn't admitting it to anyone? That has really bugged me throughout this whole ordeal. :banghead:

I think GA knew Casey had the gas cans. Actually, I think he admitted that's why he made such a big deal about getting into her trunk. She had been stealing gas for quite some time and GA told her that he didn't mind her taking gas as long she replaced it. In fact, I believe the only reason they started locking the shed was to keep Casey out. This time, she not only stole gas but broke the lock too. GA must have been furious.

He could have just as easily grabbed the spare key and gone into the trunk himself but he wanted to catch Casey with the cans. Perhaps shake some sense into her. He had finally had enough of her stealing. That's when Casey said I'll get it and GA said no, I'll get it. So they both walked toward the car then she blew past him so she could get there first. She did not want GA near the trunk.

I think GA smelled the trunk but probably didn't see anything. He may have relayed this to Cindy and that's why CA and GA were determined to lay eyes on Caylee or speak with her. They needed reassurance that Caylee was OK.

It seems Casey had a habit of taking Caylee from them as a means of emotional punishment if she didn't get her way. Lee asking Casey if this was like the last time may have been in reference to her keeping Caylee from GA/CA. GA said Casey took things to the extreme then pushed it even more.

It makes sense after Mark H said she used Caylee as a form of punishment against CA/GA. They probably assumed she was doing it again but the circumstances changed dramatically once GA got a whiff of the trunk.

IMO

 

[LancelotLink]

And that is another thing. In his interview, he stated he was well aware that she was taking the gas cans, she did it all the time, and yet on this one occasion, he said he was so stunned, he had to go and sit down in the garage.

 

[janine]

Hi Janine :seeya:

The gas can incident happened on June 24th, while the forensics indicate a decomp time of 2.6 days for Caylee's body in the trunk, which would mean KC took her out of the trunk between the 18th/19th. (Which lines up with her borrowing the shovel from Brian Burner.) I will try to find links to some threads where we discuss this.

ETA: Here's the 24th/gas can thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69807

ETA2: Here's a thread where the process of decomposition in general, and the 2.6 days of decomp in specific, are discussed BUT BE WARNED, THERE IS A GRAPHIC B&W PHOTO INCLUDED IN THE VERY FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93024

(Sorry for the yelling in red! I'd forgotten about that post and it gave me a start to pop it open again.)



IMO, you are spot-on here. Having no comprehension or caring for what nature would already have done to Caylee by that time, she probably hoped she could sneak by, scoop up the bag, and deposit it somewhere else. At the very least I believe she wanted to check what the status of the scene was, and hide anything incriminating that was still visible.

Hi there...
Oh thank you for setting me straight on that. So- then given that information, do you think he smelled the trunk that day with the gas can event? What made him give chase? He got the cans back so that couldn't have been it.

So now you bring up another point/question. What's the deal with the shovel and what role will it play in her trial? Did she actually bury her in the backyard at one time and if so, why'd she relocate her? All this moving around of a very decomposed body must have gotten messy- hence the pants needing to be washed. It takes a lot to dig a hole in the hot sun when the earth is really dry. Now try digging a hole big enough for a small child when you are panicked and stressed for time. Curious.
I found her reasoning hilarious as to why she needed the shovel. Been gone from home- but stops by the house to borrow a shovel to dig up roots?
How much you wanna bet that girl never did a single dish, let alone some weird random yard-work in the middle of the day. :loser:

 

[Ssejors]

Question to anyone.

What happens to Cholorine when it mixes with decomp fluids?

 

[LolaMoon08]

I was watching the video of Caylee and Cindy swimming yesterday and there was a clear shot of the ladder that is for the pool. It made me think of the comments that Casey used the neighbors shovel to get the ladder that fell into the pool.

First of all, that ladder could not have accidentally fell into the pool. It had to have had been pushed inside the pool... if there is any truth to the ladder being inside the pool.

Then I got to thinking... did Casey purposely throw the ladder into the pool? Say she duct taped Caylee's mouth so that her cries could not be heard from the back yard... she throws Caylee into the pool... and throws the ladder into the pool to make sure Caylee could have no chance to save her own life? What if she sat there and watched Caylee struggle? Could she have seen that Caylee was fighting with every inch of her soul to make it to that ladder and Casey throws it in to take that chance away from Caylee?

It makes me so sick to even think about it, because I think drowning is probably one of the worst ways to die. It's not a quick death. I think I would much rather think of Caylee being drugged and then the duct tape wrapped around her mouth... then to think about her suffering so much.

 

[ynotdivein]

So now you bring up another point/question. What's the deal with the shovel and what role will it play in her trial? Did she actually bury her in the backyard at one time and if so, why'd she relocate her? All this moving around of a very decomposed body must have gotten messy- hence the pants needing to be washed. It takes a lot to dig a hole in the hot sun when the earth is really dry. Now try digging a hole big enough for a small child when you are panicked and stressed for time. Curious.
I found her reasoning hilarious as to why she needed the shovel. Been gone from home- but stops by the house to borrow a shovel to dig up roots?
How much you wanna bet that girl never did a single dish, let alone some weird random yard-work in the middle of the day. :loser:

There's been lots (and lots and lots) of speculation and sleuthing here about the shovel as it fits into the timeline... These are just my general thoughts about it all (and searching for keywords/tags will bring up lots more for you to ponder):

1. Brian Burner (the neighbor) stated that KC gave "digging up bamboo shoots" as her reason for borrowing his shovel. This excuse is patently ridiculous for the reasons you point out.

2. Some (myself included) speculate that she really borrowed the shovel about 2 days after murdering Caylee because she was having trouble manipulating Caylee's body out of her trunk. Rigor, if it ever fully set in on such a small corpse and in such heat, would likely have released by then, and KC may have needed an implement to help her move the body around, whether that was:

a. To move a blanket-wrapped Caylee out of the trunk and into the garbage bags, or
b. To move a garbage-bagged Caylee out of the trunk and into the laundry bag, or
c. To move an already-triple-bagged Caylee out of the trunk and into the backyard in an effectual attempt to bury her there.

Whatever the real reason she borrowed that shovel, and IMO it did have to do with manipulating Caylee's body, she returned it within about an hour.

 

[Bee Charmer]

Hiya Ynot! If she did use the shovel for the purpose of moving a decompsing body around, where do you think she washed the shovel off; for surely there would have been forensic material on it, wouldn't there?

 

[ynotdivein]

Hiya Ynot! If she did use the shovel for the purpose of moving a decompsing body around, where do you think she washed the shovel off; for surely there would have been forensic material on it, wouldn't there?

Hi Bee! IMO, the obvious choice for spur-of-the-moment KC would have been to dip it in the pool. If Caylee were already in one or both of the garbage bags (as IMO she was--but that is MO right now today and it has and may still change!), this might have limited the amount of material transferred to the shovel to begin with.

My best option two is that she hosed it down. But IIRC Brian Burner did not note that the shovel was wet when she returned it... :waitasec:

 

[Bee Charmer]

Hi Bee! IMO, the obvious choice for spur-of-the-moment KC would have been to dip it in the pool. If Caylee were already in one or both of the garbage bags (as IMO she was--but that is MO right now today and it has and may still change!), this might have limited the amount of material transferred to the shovel to begin with.

My best option two is that she hosed it down. But IIRC Brian Burner did not note that the shovel was wet when she returned it... :waitasec:

I think we're on the same page here Y. I wonder if she wiped the shovel down with papertowels and that's how the adipocere got on them. She could have also wiped the shovel dry with towelling too.

I like the idea of her hosing down the shovel, cuz perhaps that is why the dogs hit in the yard.

 

[janine]

There's been lots (and lots and lots) of speculation and sleuthing here about the shovel as it fits into the timeline... These are just my general thoughts about it all (and searching for keywords/tags will bring up lots more for you to ponder):

1. Brian Burner (the neighbor) stated that KC gave "digging up bamboo shoots" as her reason for borrowing his shovel. This excuse is patently ridiculous for the reasons you point out.

2. Some (myself included) speculate that she really borrowed the shovel about 2 days after murdering Caylee because she was having trouble manipulating Caylee's body out of her trunk. Rigor, if it ever fully set in on such a small corpse and in such heat, would likely have released by then, and KC may have needed an implement to help her move the body around, whether that was:

a. To move a blanket-wrapped Caylee out of the trunk and into the garbage bags, or
b. To move a garbage-bagged Caylee out of the trunk and into the laundry bag, or
c. To move an already-triple-bagged Caylee out of the trunk and into the backyard in an effectual attempt to bury her there.

Whatever the real reason she borrowed that shovel, and IMO it did have to do with manipulating Caylee's body, she returned it within about an hour.

Oh excellent. That makes a ton of sense, actually. The shovel was odd. And yes, seems that the chemicals in the pool could easily destroy evidence of decomp or DNA and in the heat, would dry rather quickly.

I knew the (I said root but you corrected that) bamboo shoots was a ridiculous reason for her to give.

Oh to hear all the details the SA have concluded is going to be riveting. I would like to compare all the analysis done here to what they come up with. I bet a lot will be right on the mark.

Thanks for clearing it up for me.

 

[Bee Charmer]

Oh yes, finally hearing what the Prosecution's theory is, is gonna keep all of us on the edge of our seats.

 

[Ssejors]

is it ludacris to wonder if the cholorform is a side affect of cholrine pool water and decomposition?

 

[debbie0604]

I think GA knew Casey had the gas cans. Actually, I think he admitted that's why he made such a big deal about getting into her trunk. She had been stealing gas for quite some time and GA told her that he didn't mind her taking gas as long she replaced it. In fact, I believe the only reason they started locking the shed was to keep Casey out. This time, she not only stole gas but broke the lock too. GA must have been furious.

He could have just as easily grabbed the spare key and gone into the trunk himself but he wanted to catch Casey with the cans. Perhaps shake some sense into her. He had finally had enough of her stealing. That's when Casey said I'll get it and GA said no, I'll get it. So they both walked toward the car then she blew past him so she could get there first. She did not want GA near the trunk.

I think GA smelled the trunk but probably didn't see anything. He may have relayed this to Cindy and that's why CA and GA were determined to lay eyes on Caylee or speak with her. They needed reassurance that Caylee was OK.

It seems Casey had a habit of taking Caylee from them as a means of emotional punishment if she didn't get her way. Lee asking Casey if this was like the last time may have been in reference to her keeping Caylee from GA/CA. GA said Casey took things to the extreme then pushed it even more.

It makes sense after Mark H said she used Caylee as a form of punishment against CA/GA. They probably assumed she was doing it again but the circumstances changed dramatically once GA got a whiff of the trunk.

IMO

See that makes sense to me. The whole gas can story that GA told just didn't add up with me. I mean when he was telling the story about the car wedge and starting to go toward her car trunk to retrieve it, to me it was like he knew that the gas cans were in her trunk. She bolted past him and opened the trunk and retrieved the cans. However, he never mentioned that he saw anything or smelled anything in the trunk (however, KC didn't want him going anywhere near the trunk).

I'm with you, I think he smelled something too. I have always thought that.

I also agree with you that KC was taking Caylee away as emotional punishment and was doing it once again (which is why CA wrote that Myspace blog). But with GA smelling the trunk that day with KC, and then smelling the car again at the impound lot, that's why he said to himself "please don't let this be Caylee."

 

[debbie0604]

There's been lots (and lots and lots) of speculation and sleuthing here about the shovel as it fits into the timeline... These are just my general thoughts about it all (and searching for keywords/tags will bring up lots more for you to ponder):

1. Brian Burner (the neighbor) stated that KC gave "digging up bamboo shoots" as her reason for borrowing his shovel. This excuse is patently ridiculous for the reasons you point out.

2. Some (myself included) speculate that she really borrowed the shovel about 2 days after murdering Caylee because she was having trouble manipulating Caylee's body out of her trunk. Rigor, if it ever fully set in on such a small corpse and in such heat, would likely have released by then, and KC may have needed an implement to help her move the body around, whether that was:

a. To move a blanket-wrapped Caylee out of the trunk and into the garbage bags, or
b. To move a garbage-bagged Caylee out of the trunk and into the laundry bag, or
c. To move an already-triple-bagged Caylee out of the trunk and into the backyard in an effectual attempt to bury her there.

Whatever the real reason she borrowed that shovel, and IMO it did have to do with manipulating Caylee's body, she returned it within about an hour.

Just a question, did LE check the shovel for DNA/decomp and also soil on the shovel? I can't remember.

 

[cuppy199]

Just a question, did LE check the shovel for DNA/decomp and also soil on the shovel? I can't remember.

Yes I believe they did It was in the first couple of doc dumps not sure which its been along time.

 

[LolaMoon08]

Do we know where the keys to the shed were placed in the Anthony home? I ask this because 1) George states that they had their own shovels in the shed, so why would Casey need to borrow the neighbors shovel? 2) Why did she need to break into the shed for the gas cans?

Did George keeps these keys on him? On his key chain? I know both Cindy and George stated that they kept spare keys in a box in the garage, but I am not sure if that included their keys to the shed?

It just makes me a little suspicious that Casey couldn't (or she chose not to) use the keys to the shed to get what she needed? Did she not want to use the Anthony shovel so that it wouldn't have evidence on it? Did she not want to simply use the keys to the shed, when she took George's gas cans because she wanted to make it look like someone broke in to it... so it looked like she didn't take them?

 

[Tulessa]

Hi Janine :seeya:

The gas can incident happened on June 24th, while the forensics indicate a decomp time of 2.6 days for Caylee's body in the trunk, which would mean KC took her out of the trunk between the 18th/19th. (Which lines up with her borrowing the shovel from Brian Burner.) I will try to find links to some threads where we discuss this.

ETA: Here's the 24th/gas can thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69807

ETA2: Here's a thread where the process of decomposition in general, and the 2.6 days of decomp in specific, are discussed BUT BE WARNED, THERE IS A GRAPHIC B&W PHOTO INCLUDED IN THE VERY FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93024

(Sorry for the yelling in red! I'd forgotten about that post and it gave me a start to pop it open again.)



IMO, you are spot-on here. Having no comprehension or caring for what nature would already have done to Caylee by that time, she probably hoped she could sneak by, scoop up the bag, and deposit it somewhere else. At the very least I believe she wanted to check what the status of the scene was, and hide anything incriminating that was still visible.

I had totally forgot about that thread.

 

[LolaMoon08]

:anguish:

I had totally forgot about that thread.

I remember that thread too...

:anguish: