Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #7

[SMK]

At our public libraries you have to show and leave picture ID with the desk while using the computer. They keep track of who used which computer when. And it's all documented and kept safe in a ledger. You also have to have a valid library card. So, being anonymous on the computer at the public library is pretty much impossible.

Ah, I see, NOT true at all at our local library here, but I can see why they would take these precautions. Could she have used someone's laptop which they did not check? Or maybe looked in an actual book.....

 

[SMK]

But why would you try to stop leaking fluid with duct tape? She was going to be bagged an thrown out. I don't know how well that would have worked anyway, as the body would swell and the fluids would be unable to seep out naturally.

I've yet to hear a convincing argument for taping Caylee after she's already dead.

I guess the only one would be to make it look like the crazy Zany Nanny did it in the kidnapping?

 

[Tuffy]

I guess the only one would be to make it look like the crazy Zany Nanny did it in the kidnapping?

Why would a kidnapper kill her though? A kidnapper would use duct tape on the mouth only to quiet their victim, not over the mouth and nose, then all the way around the head.

Nope, not buying the kidnapping thing either! lol

 

[Tuffy]

There is no point in duct-taping someone's mouth if they are already dead. That duct tape tells me 2 things. 1. She was alive when she was duct taped and 2. Her hands were tied. You don't duct tape someones mouth without tying their hands also, otherwise they would attempt to pull the duct-tape off.

The tape wouldn't come off the way Casey wrapped the tape almost completely around her head. No need to tie her hands or restrain her in anyway. She'd be unconscious, then dead very shortly. Not to mention the chloroform probably incapacitated her.

 

[lynxofsd]

This is hard for me to write about, but I'm considering a composite theory augmented by a comment that someone made on HLN last week. Pardon me if all of this has been posted before.

First, I doubt that chloroform was involved in Caylee's death. Something suggests to me that there is another explanation for the traces of chloroform found in the trunk of the car--degradation of plastics, maybe, or other bands on the gas chromatograph associated with human decomposition that cause false positivity for (or create small amounts of) chloroform. Don't be surprised if a forensic pathologist/chemist for the defense shows up on the stand to discredit chloroform as a causative agent of Caylee's death.

Furthermore, has anyone offered a plausible explanation where Casey could have bought or otherwise obtained enough chloroform to kill Caylee? (It takes far more than a handkerchief's amount to anesthetize someone--that's a fiction reserved for the silent movie era.) It's not an easy chemical to obtain without a legitimate reason, and I'm sure LE has combed through any associations by which she could have obtained it. (The suggestion that Casey decided one day to become an amateur pharmaceutical chemist to synthesize it from other compounds in order to sedate or kill Caylee is rather unlikely, I think.)

I think Casey killed Caylee at the Anthony home by suffocation or drowning...but why the duct tape? And, how easy would it be to smother a nearly three year old child simply by applying duct tape to their face? That sounds pretty difficult to me. IMO, Casey had to have used brute force to kill her otherwise. I don't think duct tape alone would be enough to smother a toddler struggling to breathe unless they had doses of medication (and, not chloroform, BTW) approaching that of an anesthetized patient in an operating room.

IMO, the duct tape came later when Caylee began to emit fluids from her mouth and nose after she died, probably within 24-48 hours after her death. Casey didn't realize that after Caylee's death, there would be no obstruction to the flow of fluids from her stomach and upper airway that would normally be contained in her body when she was alive. She didn't have an immediate plan for disposing of her, but when the trunk was becoming a bit of a mess she had to find a rapid and effective way of dealing with this problem.

Hence the duct tape: several pieces applied copiously. At least one and possibly two strips were applied over Caylee's nares, the third wound circumferentially around her skull to stop the leak from her mouth. The circumferential segment held Caylee's jaw in place until she was found.

My take is that neither chloroform or duct tape were the primary causes of Caylee's death. It's hard for me to accept that either were the first agents employed to take this poor little girl's life away from her.

 

[Tuffy]

This is hard for me to write about, but I'm considering a composite theory augmented by a comment that someone made on HLN last week. Pardon me if all of this has been posted before.

First, I doubt that chloroform was involved in Caylee's death. Something suggests to me that there is another explanation for the traces of chloroform found in the trunk of the car--degradation of plastics, maybe, or other bands on the gas chromatograph associated with human decomposition that cause false positivity for (or create small amounts of) chloroform. Don't be surprised if a forensic pathologist/chemist for the defense shows up on the stand to discredit chloroform as a causative agent of Caylee's death.

Furthermore, has anyone offered a plausible explanation where Casey could have bought or otherwise obtained enough chloroform to kill Caylee? (It takes far more than a handkerchief's amount to anesthetize someone--that's a fiction reserved for the silent movie era.) It's not an easy chemical to obtain without a legitimate reason, and I'm sure LE has combed through any associations by which she could have obtained it. (The suggestion that Casey decided one day to become an amateur pharmaceutical chemist to synthesize it from other compounds in order to sedate or kill Caylee is rather unlikely, I think.)

I think Casey killed Caylee at the Anthony home by suffocation or drowning...but why the duct tape? And, how easy would it be to smother a nearly three year old child simply by applying duct tape to their face? That sounds pretty difficult to me. IMO, Casey had to have used brute force to kill her otherwise. I don't think duct tape alone would be enough to smother a toddler struggling to breathe unless they had doses of medication (and, not chloroform, BTW) approaching that of an anesthetized patient in an operating room.

IMO, the duct tape came later when Caylee began to emit fluids from her mouth and nose after she died, probably within 24-48 hours after her death. Casey didn't realize that after Caylee's death, there would be no obstruction to the flow of fluids from her stomach and upper airway that would normally be contained in her body when she was alive. She didn't have an immediate plan for disposing of her, but when the trunk was becoming a bit of a mess she had to find a rapid and effective way of dealing with this problem.

Hence the duct tape: several pieces applied copiously. At least one and possibly two strips were applied over Caylee's nares, the third wound circumferentially around her skull to stop the leak from her mouth. The circumferential segment held Caylee's jaw in place until she was found.

My take is that neither chloroform or duct tape were the primary causes of Caylee's death. It's hard for me to accept that either were the first agents employed to take this poor little girl's life away from her.

You think that after Casey searches for recipes for chloroform, and kills Caylee, the chloroform is coincidental? Really? It wasn't just trace amounts. It was the highest amount the guy had seen.

 

[olive]

Furthermore, has anyone offered a plausible explanation where Casey could have bought or otherwise obtained enough chloroform to kill Caylee? (It takes far more than a handkerchief's amount to anesthetize someone--that's a fiction reserved for the silent movie era.) It's not an easy chemical to obtain without a legitimate reason, and I'm sure LE has combed through any associations by which she could have obtained it. (The suggestion that Casey decided one day to become an amateur pharmaceutical chemist to synthesize it from other compounds in order to sedate or kill Caylee is rather unlikely, I think.)




IMO, the duct tape came later when Caylee began to emit fluids from her mouth and nose after she died, probably within 24-48 hours after her death. Casey didn't realize that after Caylee's death, there would be no obstruction to the flow of fluids from her stomach and upper airway that would normally be contained in her body when she was alive. She didn't have an immediate plan for disposing of her, but when the trunk was becoming a bit of a mess she had to find a rapid and effective way of dealing with this problem.


My take is that neither chloroform or duct tape were the primary causes of Caylee's death. It's hard for me to accept that either were the first agents employed to take this poor little girl's life away from her.

I haven't posted on this case here since 2008, but I remember from back then that there was talk that Cindy had access to chloroform- I can't remember how or why. I know she was a nurse.

I agree with you on everything you said about duct tape and cause of death.

 

[lynxofsd]

You think that after Casey searches for recipes for chloroform, and kills Caylee, the chloroform is coincidental? Really? It wasn't just trace amounts. It was the highest amount the guy had seen.

Do you have a link to where "the highest amount the guy had seen" is referenced? Was that in a deposition?

(I would appreciate it.)

 

[Phoebeb]

I think she drugged little Caylee with Chloroform and placed the tape over her mouth and nose after she was unconscious and the poor baby suffocated under that tape in the trunk.

I hate saying this.

Aqua

I agree. She wanted to carry on with AL that night and into the next day. No babysitter? Okay. Now really frustrated with the interference of having Caylee, not wanting to ruin things with AL by having Caylee around. I believe she decided she had had enough- also magnified by the fight she had with CA on the night of the 15th. Give her a nice dose of Chloroform, put her in the trunk, but this time add the duct tape. Spend the night and next day frolicking in the bed with AL, no worries. She didn't want to actually see Caylee die anyway. Just blew off the world, knowing her daughter would have to be dead by the time ICA resurfaced to the world. Now back to the house on the 18th, get the bags, blanket, heart sticker to prepare the body for the dumping.
I hate saying this too.
Still don't get where that shovel comes in, though. ICA is not the type to voluntarily help out by borrowing a shovel to help out in the yard by removing bamboo shoots. Why did she need it? Sand from the sandbox to weigh the body down in case she had originally thought of throwing her in water?
Wonder if either of the rented movies gave her ideas as to how to dispose of the body?

 

[lynxofsd]

...I remember from back then that there was talk that Cindy had access to chloroform- I can't remember how or why. I know she was a nurse.

I agree with you on everything you said about duct tape and cause of death.

She worked for Gentiva--a home healthcare organization. It's pretty unlikely that chloroform would be sitting on a shelf somewhere for Cindy to take home..and for what purpose?

I can't think of any reason chloroform would be sitting around in any outpatient setting in the year 2008, regardless of specialty, but I'm willing to read any reasonable explanations.

 

[Phoebeb]

She worked for Gentiva--a home healthcare organization. It's pretty unlikely that chloroform would just be lying around for Cindy to take home..and for what purpose?

I can't think of any reason chloroform would be sitting around in any outpatient setting in the year 2008, regardless of specialty, but I'm willing to read any reasonable explanations.

Wasn't there evidvece found in the car such as gatorade bottle with a substance and a syringe? Where did I hear this?

 

[ynotdivein]

Just bumped three threads on chloroform, Anthony computer forensics, and Caylee Drowned in Family Pool theory. If we can break out conversation into those topics it would be helpful! I have no idea what would happen in a four-thread merge and don't want to test it out here tonight.

:tyou:

 

[olive]

She worked for Gentiva--a home healthcare organization. It's pretty unlikely that chloroform would be sitting on a shelf somewhere for Cindy to take home..and for what purpose?

I can't think of any reason chloroform would be sitting around in any outpatient setting in the year 2008, regardless of specialty, but I'm willing to read any reasonable explanations.

You can use the search feature on these forums...I'd search "2008" "Cindy Anthony" "chloroform"

 

[SMK]

Something I have wondered, if anyone has time to consider or any ideas, would be greatly appreciated: Autopsy report says body was likely dumped months before discovery, and perhaps even shortly after the disappearance date of June 15/16. So, if Casey wanted her Zanny the Nanny kidnapping story to be believed::waitasec:

1. Why did she not drive at least 3-4 hours away and dump the body (as many killers will do, driving all night to dump the body in another state), making it look as though Zanny tried to escape with the child, but maybe could not take her crying?
2. Why did she say things in jail to her brother Lee which she knew were being recorded such as "I feel she is close to home" and "look in old childhood places"?
3. Did she want the body to be found, and VERY, very close to home, and why???:waitasec:
4. Was she perhaps wanting Lee to move the body, and thus gave him those "clues" which she said were all she felt "comfortable with at the time"? Did she not think someone else would find it, thus turning it over to Law Enforcement?
5. If so, why did Lee not do it? Was he just really bad at following clues, or did he not want the risk, or did he think it was wrong???

 

[jon_burrows]

This is hard for me to write about, but I'm considering a composite theory augmented by a comment that someone made on HLN last week. Pardon me if all of this has been posted before.

First, I doubt that chloroform was involved in Caylee's death. Something suggests to me that there is another explanation for the traces of chloroform found in the trunk of the car--degradation of plastics, maybe, or other bands on the gas chromatograph associated with human decomposition that cause false positivity for (or create small amounts of) chloroform. Don't be surprised if a forensic pathologist/chemist for the defense shows up on the stand to discredit chloroform as a causative agent of Caylee's death.

Furthermore, has anyone offered a plausible explanation where Casey could have bought or otherwise obtained enough chloroform to kill Caylee? (It takes far more than a handkerchief's amount to anesthetize someone--that's a fiction reserved for the silent movie era.) It's not an easy chemical to obtain without a legitimate reason, and I'm sure LE has combed through any associations by which she could have obtained it. (The suggestion that Casey decided one day to become an amateur pharmaceutical chemist to synthesize it from other compounds in order to sedate or kill Caylee is rather unlikely, I think.)

I think Casey killed Caylee at the Anthony home by suffocation or drowning...but why the duct tape? And, how easy would it be to smother a nearly three year old child simply by applying duct tape to their face? That sounds pretty difficult to me. IMO, Casey had to have used brute force to kill her otherwise. I don't think duct tape alone would be enough to smother a toddler struggling to breathe unless they had doses of medication (and, not chloroform, BTW) approaching that of an anesthetized patient in an operating room.

IMO, the duct tape came later when Caylee began to emit fluids from her mouth and nose after she died, probably within 24-48 hours after her death. Casey didn't realize that after Caylee's death, there would be no obstruction to the flow of fluids from her stomach and upper airway that would normally be contained in her body when she was alive. She didn't have an immediate plan for disposing of her, but when the trunk was becoming a bit of a mess she had to find a rapid and effective way of dealing with this problem.

Hence the duct tape: several pieces applied copiously. At least one and possibly two strips were applied over Caylee's nares, the third wound circumferentially around her skull to stop the leak from her mouth. The circumferential segment held Caylee's jaw in place until she was found.

My take is that neither chloroform or duct tape were the primary causes of Caylee's death. It's hard for me to accept that either were the first agents employed to take this poor little girl's life away from her.

BBM - Extremely easy. I have an older sister and we did not get along when we were teenagers. We were only two years apart but she was bigger than me. She used to throw me to the ground, sit on me, then pin my arms over my head while holding my wrists together while she screamed nasty stuff right into my face. I could feel her breath on my face. She would also pin my arms by digging her knees into the inside of my upper arms (very painful) and threaten to spit in my face. I could not move any part of my body above the point where she was sitting on me. My arms/hands were useless. I tried kicking as hard as I could to knock her off but to no avail. Once she had me pinned I was at her mercy. My sister is not a murderer but if she had placed three long pieces of duct tape over my mouth and nose she could have suffocated me very easily.

Contrast that with the size difference between Casey and Caylee. Caylee would have been no match against Casey. I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm just trying to explain how my sister could pin me and we were much closer in size than Casey/Caylee. A toddler is no match against any adult, no matter how small the adult may be.

Also, there was a third piece of duct tape at the dump site that had fringe hairs. From what I understand, fringe hairs cannot be traced back to a person and they can come from arms. It would have been extremely easy for Casey to pin Caylee down and duct tape her wrists together then duct tape her face. She could have also pinned Caylee down holding her arms very close to her body with her knees so she couldn't move. She could have also pinned her arms the same way my sister did by digging her knees into Caylee's little arms.

I hate to type all this but since I know what it feels like to be pinned to the ground on many occasions, I can see how Casey could have easily duct taped an alive, fully conscience child.

IMO

 

[joypath]

She worked for Gentiva--a home healthcare organization. It's pretty unlikely that chloroform would be sitting on a shelf somewhere for Cindy to take home..and for what purpose?

I can't think of any reason chloroform would be sitting around in any outpatient setting in the year 2008, regardless of specialty, but I'm willing to read any reasonable explanations.

Totally agree especially since it had been banned for "routine" purpose since 1976. To purchase CHCl3 LEGALLY one has to go thru MANY "hoops" and sign more than a few documents demonstrating that it will be used for legal (in my case, scientific) purposes.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Maybe Casey stole the Chloroform from somewhere. She did meet Cindy at her work place when she told her she was pregnant. I would not put Casey above stealing something

I do not believe it was an accident. If that was true then the state would not be seeking the death penalty. I think the state will bring out factual evidence to prove Caylee was murdered.

 

[Tuffy]

Do you have a link to where "the highest amount the guy had seen" is referenced? Was that in a deposition?

(I would appreciate it.)

http://3dposernow.com/Steel_Blue/?p=78

Arpad Vass, senior research scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory testified for hours Thursday about his extensive research in buried body decomposition as well as surface decomposition. Anthony’s team wants to stop Vass’ air-sample and decomposition odor evidence used in her murder trial.

Vass said in hundreds of such samples he’d collected through the years he’d never seen chloroform levels that high. His reaction, he said, was “surprise.”

 

[Tuffy]

Maybe Casey stole the Chloroform from somewhere. She did meet Cindy at her work place when she told her she was pregnant. I would not put Casey above stealing something

She had been to Cindy's work a lot. Cindy said her coworkers had seen Caylee grow up because Casey brought Caylee up there so much. I doubt the facility had chloroform there though. I hasn't been used medicinally since the 70's.

I can be made easily at home with rubbing alcohol, ice, and acetate (aka nail polish remover.)

 

[cluciano63]

I believe she was killed at home, due to the items found with Caylee. I think the duct-taping came after the killing, in an effort to "stage". If she did it right away, it would adhere.

She could have shaken her to death; she could have smothered her, giving her the idea for the duct tape afterward. Maybe she put a cloth with chloroform on her face to make her sleep/be quiet and when she saw she had killed her, she taped her up instead.

I am not quite convinced her intent was to kill her, yet anyway. I think she wanted her sleeping, quiet, not bothering her, and whatever she did that day, she had done before.

But of course, she may have done it on purpose, but if she did, I think she would have done it someplace else and been ready to leave the body there where she killed her.