TH's emails shed light on Horman split

[Schmerty_Jones]

As it has been said,the lack of compassion & anxiety for the missing stepson shows...".there is ICE in them there veins!! I care only for my own feelings."

 

[stmarysmead]

Terri made a lot of assertions in these emails and that might have been a big mistake.

There are times when lying is especially reckless and one of those times is when there is a criminal investigation swirling around you. Of all times, that's a time to be cautious to be very accurate...so I would think anyway.

Was she?

For example, someone might have overheard the conversation between the teacher and Terri about the Dr.s appointment and supports the teacher's version.

Perhaps they can find no one who told Terri anything about "a male chaperone and two girls with Kyron after she leaves." No one at all claims to be the source.

It's clear Terri wasn't driving just "minutes" with Baby K.

Did the gym story actually check out?

Can anyone else verify weeks of strange behavior from Kyron? Something THIS serious is obvious to teachers and to the others parenting the child. There should also have been some worried conversations. Why would Terri keep it hidden?

To me, there were already a Big Reckless Lie or two out there even before Kyron disappeared ...that if Terri did not start...sure do go to her benefit. Someone was telling others that Terri was Desiree's dear friend, the good-hearted soul who just moved in with Kaine to unselfishly care for a sick woman's baby. Then there is the "Angry Mom Story"...Terri is upset because Kaine threw her teenage son out of the house.

These are reckless lies...easily disproved...the first by Desiree and Kaine; the second by her own son. Maybe Terri has a pattern like this.

There may be other reckless lies in these emails...that started to add up and make LE suspicious.

 

[Jules71]

Oh hey, kind of off topic, but still related. I went to Fred Meyer yesterday to buy some Children's Tylenol, but guess what??? They didn't have any!!! I about flipped out (because we had a very scary accident yesterday and my son needed it). I would have gone to another store to look for it, not to a different FM if something else was closer, but decided since it was urgent to get the Children's Ibuprofen. I even asked the manager about it (usually a store will have the Children's name brand Tylenol and also the store brand Children's Acetaminophen - but they didn't have either). The mgr said they pulled them off the shelf due to a recall. The weird thing is, I have other store brand Children's Acetaminophen that I just bought (but didn't have with me) - so apparently the recall was just name brand Tylenol and FM store brand.

 

[krowdkat]

The problem I have with the argument that her e-mail is about establishing alibis is that LE was interviewing her with that as their primary goal, and not once, not twice, not three times, not four times, but going on five times in the span of two days. If LE is having her go over and over and over her day, then of course she's going to be obsessed with it, she's going to know it inside and out, she's going to be increasingly focused on times, where she was, what she did, and not necessarily because she's guilty, but because LE is drilling her and drilling her and drilling her about where she was that morning. It's going to be at the forefront of her mind because she's being rigorously and repeatedly questioned about it. In these edited e-mails, she may not be directly expressing concern for Kyron, but ultimately, that could be the root of her frustration along with having a negative reaction to indirect suspicion (at that time) that she may have been involved in Kyron's disappearance.

Also, Kaine and Desiree, especially Desiree, have said that obviously Terri was a phenomenal actress prior to Kyron's disappearance. What happened? If she's a sociopath, if she's such a great actress, if she's adept at fooling everyone, then why did she suddenly lose that ability to continue being a great actress? If she's a sociopath, expertly picking up clues about how to behave, then how do you explain her problematic, self-destructive behavior in the aftermath of Kyron's disappearance?

cypress, TH's self destructive behavior began months before Kyron went missing if we are to be believe the MFH took place. Desiree and Kaine not knowing that TH had plotted this until AFTER Kyron went missing explains why they think she was a phenomenal actress prior to Kyron's disappearance.

TH suddenly lost that ability because LE turned their focus on her (based on her own behaviors) prior to AND after Kyron's disappearance. That's why she lawyered up and stopped talking. She couldn't fool anyone anymore. IMHO.

 

[debs]

cypress, TH's self destructive behavior began months before Kyron went missing if we are to be believe the MFH took place. Desiree and Kaine not knowing that TH had plotted this until AFTER Kyron went missing explains why they think she was a phenomenal actress prior to Kyron's disappearance.

TH suddenly lost that ability because LE turned their focus on her (based on her own behaviors) prior to AND after Kyron's disappearance. That's why she lawyered up and stopped talking. She couldn't fool anyone anymore. IMHO.

But we DON'T know that the MFH took place. We DON'T know if Terri plotted this, and we DON'T know if she was acting prior to his disappearance. She lawyered up because people were accusing her of attempted murder and kidnapping. I'd have gotten a lawyer, too! Who has she attempted to fool? She hasn't said much since June 5 when she was giving a friend of hers a timeline in an email.

 

[gardeness]

But we DON'T know that the MFH took place. We DON'T know if Terri plotted this, and we DON'T know if she was acting prior to his disappearance. She lawyered up because people were accusing her of attempted murder and kidnapping. I'd have gotten a lawyer, too! Who has she attempted to fool? She hasn't said much since June 5 when she was giving a friend of hers a timeline in an email.

Agree. And, investigators say the "plot never went beyond talk", which makes me question the validity of any "plot"...

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story_2nd.php?story_id=128293469651541900

 

[gitana1]

The problem I have with the argument that her e-mail is about establishing alibis is that LE was interviewing her with that as their primary goal, and not once, not twice, not three times, not four times, but going on five times in the span of two days. If LE is having her go over and over and over her day, then of course she's going to be obsessed with it, she's going to know it inside and out, she's going to be increasingly focused on times, where she was, what she did, and not necessarily because she's guilty, but because LE is drilling her and drilling her and drilling her about where she was that morning. It's going to be at the forefront of her mind because she's being rigorously and repeatedly questioned about it. In these edited e-mails, she may not be directly expressing concern for Kyron, but ultimately, that could be the root of her frustration along with having a negative reaction to indirect suspicion (at that time) that she may have been involved in Kyron's disappearance.

Also, Kaine and Desiree, especially Desiree, have said that obviously Terri was a phenomenal actress prior to Kyron's disappearance. What happened? If she's a sociopath, if she's such a great actress, if she's adept at fooling everyone, then why did she suddenly lose that ability to continue being a great actress? If she's a sociopath, expertly picking up clues about how to behave, then how do you explain her problematic, self-destructive behavior in the aftermath of Kyron's disappearance?

Sociopaths/narcissists are known to present as extraordinarily charming. Sometimes it takes years for even those close to them to notice that something is off. The opposing party I had in a case (mother), was like that. Oh, she could really snow everyone around her with her sincerity and earnestness. She came across as a very loving mother who maybe made a couple of mistakes way back but who was being railroaded by a cruel ex and whose life was all about her little girl. She almost had me convinced for a few minutes once. And I already knew the truth about her.
It took us two years to get the truth revealed to the court. We had to search for witnesses from old jobs, do extensive criminal background checks, get a comprehensive child custody evaluation (with psych testing) and hire a PI to trail her before we could prove how dangerous this mother was. It turned out she was diagnosed with anti-social, borderline, histrionic and narcissistic personality disorders. Basically all of them.
Here's the thing. If a person like that is mated with someone who is not that emotionally perceptive, or not that bright, or so desperate for a mate that they ignore red flags, it could take years for that mate to realize something is wrong, if ever. But these people often easily reveal themselves in times of crisis like a death, a medical emergency, etc. Because it is then that their "otherness" really comes out. They are usually pretty good at mimicking the way normal people feel and I bet that they often feel a lot like normal people do. But if they have enough narcissistic or sociopathic traits in them, they will not feel normal at such a time and it will be hard for them to be able to quickly figure out how to act because crises do not happen every day around any one person, normally, so the disordered personalities have not had enough practice mirroring how normal people act in such situations. They have usually not had enough examples.
So, when those moments do come, you have the disordered personalities acting oddly, sometimes chillingly so. Like by dismissing the seriousness of the situation, or revealing a coldness about the suffering of others, or laughing and smiling and having fun at inappropriate moments, or focusing too much on their own feelings and needs, or going on with life as if nothing bad had happened (like starting an affair or heating one up, etc.). This is usually when people who thought they knew them realize something is dreadfully wrong. Two examples: 1. casey anthony's first jailhouse call home and her friend Christina's horrified incredulity at how casey didn't seem to care about her missing kid, but instead about speaking with her boyfriend. Christina apparently thought of casey as a great mom before this. 2. scott peterson's in-laws having misgivings as they noticed off things about how scott and his parents reacted to the disappearance of Lacy. But they loved scott so much up to that point and thought they knew him so well, that even with those misgivings, they refused to believe he had anything to do with Lacy's disappearance until the affair came out.
I am not sure if TH has a personality disorder or if she does, how extensive it is. But if so, this is how I would explain her lifelong ability to be charming and wonderful and her self-destructiveness now.

 

[PDXMom]

I have another concern I need to express. Hopefully, this is the right thread to address this, since the info is from her emails.

Here's Terri, with a baby who's feeling bad enough for her to go to two different stores looking for a particular medication.

Yet, what does she do afterward? Does she try a third store, maybe a regular drugstore, or something other than Fred Myers, to locate the much desired medication? Or does she go home, so she can sooth the baby in their own environment?

No, after a period of driving around, (a few minutes or an hour or more?) she takes the baby to a gym.

Would you take a fussy, uncomfortable baby to a gym? Even if the baby wasn't really ill, as in running a fever, would you be able to concentrate on exercising for a whole hour if your baby was being fussy?

This doesn't ring true for me. Even with knowing that driving can indeed sooth a baby (I know, I remember, I raised three children), the "fact" is, according to Terri, is that it didn't work this time. So why not go home then? Why at that point take this unhappy baby - who you were trying to find meds for - to a noisy GYM for a whole hour?

The feeling I get from her email is that the sole purpose of her activities (at least the ones she tells about) was to establish alibis for her day. That's really the way I see it.

If some other emails surface that show another side to her feelings on that day after Kyron disappeared, I'll be open to revising my opinion. But that won't change the fact that I think taking an unhappy baby to a gym for an hour is a normal thing to do.

You exercise buffs can correct me if I'm wrong.

As I was reading your post, it occurred to me that if they don't have anything more than what we know about her timeline, and it checks out, it's going to be the burden of the prosecutor to tease out what may be plain old irresponsible parenting (taking sick baby to the gym) and what contributes to a profile of a kidnapper and/or murderess.

 

[manybooks]

I mentioned this in another thread and thought i would also post it as relevant here - It is *very* likely that when Kaine first began to be suspicious he had a good look at emails on the home computer before LE did (and maybe he even alerted LE to them) and that is why he seems to be talking about other emails (other than the released emails). And wasn't Desiree staying in town then, at the very beginning? Possible that Kaine showed them to her also, even if LE isn't talking to them about other emails.

 

[krowdkat]

But we DON'T know that the MFH took place. We DON'T know if Terri plotted this, and we DON'T know if she was acting prior to his disappearance. She lawyered up because people were accusing her of attempted murder and kidnapping. I'd have gotten a lawyer, too! Who has she attempted to fool? She hasn't said much since June 5 when she was giving a friend of hers a timeline in an email.

I agree with you debs, we DON'T know that the MFH took place. I wouldn't be typing about a MFH plot if it hadn't been reported. Who hires someone to kill their spouse?!? People do, but divorce seems more logical to me.

That Kaine requested a RO using this information provided to him (seemingly) by LE, and that a judge granted the RO...And that TH hasn't seen baby k since the end of June, I have to assume that the MFH plot is a very real probability.

I'm only basing my opinion on what's been reported in MSM. The only source I have to formulate an opinion since I'm not related to the case and live several states away.

It's all just my own speculation based on what I've read.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Agree. And, investigators say the "plot never went beyond talk", which makes me question the validity of any "plot"...

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story_2nd.php?story_id=128293469651541900

I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree. I put myself in the position of the one whom the "talks" had as the target.(which would be Kaine). I put myself in his position. Then I think about the "talks" that took place with me as the "target" of these "talks". Then it is more than apparent there was a MFH plot.

There are"talks" between two people(with one of those two being my spouse). MY spouse "discussing" the matter of having the target(which would be me) killed by the person other than my spouse. "Talks" that included IMO an amount of what it would cost(either an amt given by the person which has been asked my spouse to kill me) or (an amt offered by my spouse to the person whom they are "talking" with about murdering me).

The one tiny paragraph above is more than enough for the vast majority of human beings that I know to not only be extremely disturbed about but way more than enough for me to say there was a murder for hire plot discussed by my spouse about having me killed.

Is that above enough to have someone charged with MFH, NO. But no one has been charged with MFH.(But is skating on razor thin ice of meeting "conspiracy" to commit MFH)

But I am only speaking with regards to the question of is there enough to say there was a plot?

And yes, just as it has been called a "plot" since the first week of July when this news broke there was such. It is a MFH plot and just from tiny, tiny bit we know, more than qualifies as a MFH plot

 

[Etilema]

BBM
I think one of the other big things that she originally said that was refuted later by DY, was how DY and TH met and when TH began caring for Kyron.

Yes, and I interpreted any and all discrepancies between what TH's mother said and reality to be the result of her repeating what TH had told her, because she believed it.

ETA: Well, maybe with a tad of "older person getting second-hand facts a little mixed up" thrown in.

JMO

 

[Etilema]

Is the "90 minute ride" supposed to have been right after leaving the school?
Is it supposed to be on Sauvie Island? TIA!

It was supposed to have occurred after 10:00AM (since she spent the time between 9 and 10 going to two different Fred Meyer stores) and was supposed to have been on rural roads (as far as I know, a more specific location of the roads has not been released to the public, although we could speculate that the roads the police asked about in the last press conference might be where she claims to have been).

 

[Michael25]

One thing I can be sure of in this case, and there aren't many, is that this supposed drive to cure baby K will be key and subject to a lot of murky water speculation. And something tells me that with her apparently frequent e-mailing that very subject could be referenced a number of times electronically.

 

[sorrell skye]

I respectfully disagree with that we cannot extrapolate anything from her emails. I find that there are several things quite pertinent to the case that can be extrapolated that do not hinge on if they were edited, taken out of context, nor does it matter what was asked or stated in previous or following emails to these in question.

First email in question~begin~

We learn straight from the horse's mouth exactly when the "mix up", "mess up", "confusion"[as described by Terri]occurred, the morning of the 4th.
(whereas before this email it had been speculated as occurring on both Thurs. and Friday the 4th)

We learn that there was a chaperone list that day. We also learn that there were no males signed in on that list that day, yet Kyron was seen[after Terri had already left from the school property] with a .
man[assumed to have been chaperone] and 2 girls.
(Though we DO NOT KNOW who relayed this specific info to Terri[maybe that part was edited out])

We learn from Terri that she left the school at 9 a.m.
(Though I am only extrapolating the info gleaned from this first of four emails, she does however follow up this statement with she has a time stamped receipt for exactly 912 a.m. exactly 7 miles away, in one of the the 3 remaining emails)

This is just a very few important and very pertinent details that we can extrapolate from the emails and as I said this info is not affected by in or out of context, edited portions, or whether a question or statement was preceded or was followed by these 4 emails..

I stand by my opinion, since it is impossible to cross-examine an e-mail nor is it possible to ask the e-mail itself for clarification as to what was meant when such & such was said, therefore anything we extrapolate from an edited e-mail in a news article is subject to inference, IMO.

 

[Billylee]

I agree with you debs, we DON'T know that the MFH took place. I wouldn't be typing about a MFH plot if it hadn't been reported. Who hires someone to kill their spouse?!? People do, but divorce seems more logical to me.

That Kaine requested a RO using this information provided to him (seemingly) by LE, and that a judge granted the RO...And that TH hasn't seen baby k since the end of June, I have to assume that the MFH plot is a very real probability.

I'm only basing my opinion on what's been reported in MSM. The only source I have to formulate an opinion since I'm not related to the case and live several states away.

It's all just my own speculation based on what I've read.

Just wondering, if TH divorced KH, as far as custody of Kyron goes, her being step mother, she would have none, is that correct?

If, KH demised, would TH have custody or would Kyron be immediately sent to his mother DY?

Probably should be asking this in the legal thread, but the answer may just possibly have to do with why not just divorce KH.

Anyone know the answer to this?

 

[gardeness]

I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree. I put myself in the position of the one whom the "talks" had as the target.(which would be Kaine). I put myself in his position. Then I think about the "talks" that took place with me as the "target" of these "talks". Then it is more than apparent there was a MFH plot.

There are"talks" between two people(with one of those two being my spouse). MY spouse "discussing" the matter of having the target(which would be me) killed by the person other than my spouse. "Talks" that included IMO an amount of what it would cost(either an amt given by the person which has been asked my spouse to kill me) or (an amt offered by my spouse to the person whom they are "talking" with about murdering me).

The one tiny paragraph above is more than enough for the vast majority of human beings that I know to not only be extremely disturbed about but way more than enough for me to say there was a murder for hire plot discussed by my spouse about having me killed.

Is that above enough to have someone charged with MFH, NO. But no one has been charged with MFH.(But is skating on razor thin ice of meeting "conspiracy" to commit MFH)

But I am only speaking with regards to the question of is there enough to say there was a plot?

And yes, just as it has been called a "plot" since the first week of July when this news broke there was such. It is a MFH plot and just from tiny, tiny bit we know, more than qualifies as a MFH plot

I am at the point where I am very, very skeptical of the entire MFH "plot". I am doubting that an amount was ever discussed. IMO, what I suspect is that a frustrated housewife vented to someone who would listen--and it was so mundane that the someone (LS) did not even report it to the police. If evidence surfaces of specifics such as amount, date, time, when, where, and how, I will believe it. However, at this point, I just find it hard to believe. moo

 

[rnmif]

Just wondering, if TH divorced KH, as far as custody of Kyron goes, her being step mother, she would have none, is that correct?

If, KH demised, would TH have custody or would Kyron be immediately sent to his mother DY?

Probably should be asking this in the legal thread, but the answer may just possibly have to do with why not just divorce KH.

Anyone know the answer to this?

As long as Desiree's parental rights are intact (to my knowledge they are) given the amount of visitation she'd had with Kyron, it's very likely she and Tony would be able to get custody even if TH put up a fuss. But you never know. I've seen judges do some.... ahem..... *bleep* things in custody cases.....

Judges are people too, with all the attendant flaws, faults, and lack of omniscience.

 

[gitana1]

Just wondering, if TH divorced KH, as far as custody of Kyron goes, her being step mother, she would have none, is that correct?

If, KH demised, would TH have custody or would Kyron be immediately sent to his mother DY?

Probably should be asking this in the legal thread, but the answer may just possibly have to do with why not just divorce KH.

Anyone know the answer to this?

DY appears to have a joint custody agreement with Kaine with Kaine having primary custody. If TH had filed for disso, custody would stay with him unless he modified it with DY. If he did not want primary custody after a divorce from TH, custody would go to DY.
TH is not a party to that case. TH could, however, petition to join that case and file a motion requesting visitation rights with Kyron. In the state of OR, given how much time she has spent with Kyron, she would likely get visitation.
Of course, this is based on what would have happened had TH filed for disso and Kyron had NOT disappeared. At this point, I think it would be highly unlikely now, that TH would be granted any rights whatsoever to Kyron, no matter the outcome of his disappearance.

 

[Donjeta]

I wonder if they're talking about two different sets of emails, DY and KH that is. KH seems to be talking about what was released in the news but I wonder if DY isn't being made feel sick by something that Terri wrote to her before Kyron going missing that looks suspicious now in retrospect. It seems unlikely to me that LE would have given them access to any of Terri's emails to other people that they consider evidence.