TH's friends claim LE "has probable cause to arrest TH"

[Mrs G Norris]

I'm thinking LE may have told this friend that they have probable cause to arrest TH to scare her & put pressure on her to cooperate i.e. answer any & all questions & take a poly. It sounds like an LE tactic to me. Looks like it worked, because the friend cooperated fully. MOO

I agree....here's a link to something that we were discussing in another thread about police interrogation techniques...

http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation1.htm

 

[TxLady2]

Well.... if they already have probable cause.... what's the holdup?

Scare tactic. "You better tell us all you know or we might arrest you for withholding information."

 

[TxLady2]

I agree....here's a link to something that we were discussing in another thread about police interrogation techniques...

http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation1.htm

That is interesting, thanks.

 

[Tink56]

I'm thinking LE may have told this friend that they have probable cause to arrest TH to scare her & put pressure on her to cooperate i.e. answer any & all questions & take a poly. It sounds like an LE tactic to me. Looks like it worked, because the friend cooperated fully. MOO

IIRC LE can "legally" lie to individuals they are "questioning" in order to illicit the "truth" of an investigation. (This has always been a very scary aspect of LE IMO. The Michael Crowe case is an extreme example of the result of this "right" to misrepresent during questioning. http://citysearch.signonsandiego.com/news/reports/crowe/index.html)

 

[BeanE]

I think it might have been a coercion tactic to make the friend cooperate, to imply that LE has more than they actually do, but I HOPE that it is true and they're moving towards an arrest.

But IMO what the friend stated and what Kaine stated are different. Kaine never said that LE have probable cause to arrest Terri, he said he has probable cause to believe she's into something shady.



http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/judge_releases_restraining_ord.html

It has been some time since the restraining order was petitioned for and I suppose it is possible that LE could have more evidence to support an arrest now than they used to have then.

Kaine did not say he has probable cause to believe Terri's into something shady. Kaine said:

The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true.

The statements were:

- I believe respondent is involved in the disappearance of my son Kyron who has been missing since June 4, 2010.

- I also recently learned that respondent attempted to hire someone to murder me.

http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/e/1/2/e12f2287-ce0b-48e0-8d85-e3955216ae1b/FULLORDER.pdf

The friend, according to the reporter said LE told him/her they had probable cause:

to arrest Terri Horman on the alleged murder for hire plot and for Kyron's disappearance.

The exact same two things.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Kaine did not say he has probable cause to believe Terri's into something shady. Kaine said:

The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true.

The statements were:

- I believe respondent is involved in the disappearance of my son Kyron who has been missing since June 4, 2010.

- I also recently learned that respondent attempted to hire someone to murder me.

I don't understand your point? Aren't those two things extremely shady or worse than shady - dangerous and also probably cause?

 

[BeanE]

I don't understand your point? Aren't those two things extremely shady or worse than shady - dangerous and also probably cause?

My point was that there is a direct correlation between what the reporter says the friend says LE says they has probable cause for, and what Kaine says LE says they have probable cause for, and that gives us a reference point for determining believability. It's the exact same two things for probable cause.

Had Kaine said LE said they had probable cause for "shady things", there would have been no correlation, and no opportunity for cross referencing to weight believability.

 

[ThoughtFox]

My point was that there is a direct correlation between what the reporter says the friend says LE says they has probable cause for, and what Kaine says LE says they have probable cause for, and that gives us a reference point for determining believability. It's the exact same two things for probable cause.

Had Kaine said LE said they had probable cause for "shady things", there would have been no correlation, and no opportunity for cross referencing to weight believability.

Oh, okay - I see what you're saying now.

 

[BeanE]

Oh, okay - I see what you're saying now.

My tendency initially was to think LE was lying to the friend to get them to cooperate, or to talk to them more, or to take a poly, but when I realized that Kaine said the same thing about probable cause (although LE seems to deny saying it to him), I'm considering more that LE may indeed have said this, and may indeed have been sincere. I dunno. Still mulling it over.

 

[cluciano63]

They may have probable cause to arrest her but for what? Anything to do with Kyron, and if so, what would be the charge? I think they may have probable cause regarding the RO, if they want to push that, so maybe they were only sort of lying...

 

[Donjeta]

Kaine did not say he has probable cause to believe Terri's into something shady. Kaine said:

The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true.

The statements were:

- I believe respondent is involved in the disappearance of my son Kyron who has been missing since June 4, 2010.

- I also recently learned that respondent attempted to hire someone to murder me.

http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/e/1/2/e12f2287-ce0b-48e0-8d85-e3955216ae1b/FULLORDER.pdf

The friend, according to the reporter said LE told him/her they had probable cause:

to arrest Terri Horman on the alleged murder for hire plot and for Kyron's disappearance.

The exact same two things.

Sorry I was being misleading, I used "shady things" as shorthand for the murder for hire plot and involvement in Kyron's disappearance. I don't disagree that they were referring to the same crimes.

My point was that Kaine says KAINE has probable cause to BELIEVE Terri has done this. The friend says LE has probable cause to ARREST Terri for doing this.

Entirely different. IMO. LE needs to convince the DA and probable cause is legally defined for them, Kaine only himself and what constitutes probable cause for him may be different than LE.

 

[BeanE]

They may have probable cause to arrest her but for what? Anything to do with Kyron, and if so, what would be the charge? I think they may have probable cause regarding the RO, if they want to push that, so maybe they were only sort of lying...

In regards to Kyron, at this point, I think kidnapping and/or custodial interference, but I don't think they have enough evidence to satisfy the DA in order to arrest her. I don't think they have anything showing she took Kyron from the school, and I think they need that to charge either of those charges.

Otherwise the DA's not going to like having to deal with the great numbers of other people at the school that could have taken Kyron from the school, and the lax security that opens the door to opportunistic predators.

IANAL :cow:

 

[BeanE]

Sorry I was being misleading, I used "shady things" as shorthand for the murder for hire plot and involvement in Kyron's disappearance. I don't disagree that they were referring to the same crimes.

My point was that Kaine says KAINE has probable cause to BELIEVE Terri has done this. The friend says LE has probable cause to ARREST Terri for doing this.

Entirely different. IMO. LE needs to convince the DA and probable cause is legally defined for them, Kaine only himself and what constitutes probable cause for him may be different than LE.

Ah okay. Yes, I see that distinction definitely between believe and arrest. Hmmmm... I wonder if LE actually said to the friend 'probable cause' but not arrest, and the friend or reporter made an interpretation to 'arrest'. That would make sense to me.

 

[gardeness]

In regards to Kyron, at this point, I think kidnapping and/or custodial interference, but I don't think they have enough evidence to satisfy the DA in order to arrest her. I don't think they have anything showing she took Kyron from the school, and I think they need that to charge either of those charges.

Otherwise the DA's not going to like having to deal with the great numbers of other people at the school that could have taken Kyron from the school, and the lax security that opens the door to opportunistic predators.

IANAL :cow:

I suspect that the surveillance videos are a huge stumbling block to LE~they need to find something that "trumps" the parts of her alibi that she can factually prove...

(ETA: and I guess they haven't found anything in DS' cell records or computer, or they would have arrested Terri by now?)

 

[thinkofwicker]

I'd be more nervous if they DID arrest TH now re: Kyron..unless they can place him with her leaving the school,,,without a body , they could not convict her,IMO. Too many other possibilities. Hopefully they have lots more evidence than they are letting on.

 

[cluciano63]

In regards to Kyron, at this point, I think kidnapping and/or custodial interference, but I don't think they have enough evidence to satisfy the DA in order to arrest her. I don't think they have anything showing she took Kyron from the school, and I think they need that to charge either of those charges.

Otherwise the DA's not going to like having to deal with the great numbers of other people at the school that could have taken Kyron from the school, and the lax security that opens the door to opportunistic predators.

IANAL :cow:

Can a parent living in the home be charged with kidnapping or custodial crimes?

And even if yes, they would have to have pretty solid proof she left with him and after all of this time I am guessing they don't have it. I don't think they got what they hoped for after all the interviews and flyers, etc. If they cannot prove she took him from school, I don't know how they can charge her for anything related to Kyron.

And those statements from people who claim they saw Kyron later (at least the one from TP) will always be handy for the defense.

 

[BeanE]

I suspect that the surveillance videos are a huge stumbling block to LE~they need to find something that "trumps" the parts of her alibi that she can factually prove...

(ETA: and I guess they haven't found anything in DS' cell records or computer, or they would have arrested Terri by now?)

Yes, we can put ourselves in the DA's shoes, and envision explaining how we know Terri took Kyron from the school as opposed to *all* those other people at the school or a random walk-in predator. It's daunting. Really daunting. And when a DA takes that before the judge for charging within the 72 hour requisite after arrest, the judge is going to be looking for something sensible he can hang his hat on from the DA. Or he will let Terri walk, as he should.

 

[BeanE]

Can a parent living in the home be charged with kidnapping or custodial crimes?

And even if yes, they would have to have pretty solid proof she left with him and after all of this time I am guessing they don't have it. I don't think they got what they hoped for after all the interviews and flyers, etc. If they cannot prove she took him from school, I don't know how they can charge her for anything related to Kyron.

And those statements from people who claim they saw Kyron later (at least the one from TP) will always be handy for the defense.

BBM. Yes. Reference Gabe Johnson's case. I'm not confident they could charge kidnapping because I *think*, and it may depend on the state's statutes, but I *think* they would have to say Kyron crossed state lines. But the custodial interference definitely. Kaine and Desiree have custody. Terri does not. As soon as there was a date and time at which Kyron was to be with one or the other of them per court order, custodial interference kicked in.

 

[KeyboardCat]

I think what happened with both Kaine and the unnamed friends is that LE stated "We have reason to believe" that Terri is involved somehow.

Of course they believe its possible. They have been unable to move past her yet.

The term "probable cause" is probably just their interpretation of what they heard from LE.

I believe Kaine has been privy to some of the information obviously, as he filed for a RO with the knowledge they provided him.

It would be very interesting to hear questions they asked the two unnamed friends.

I'd also love to learn what LE would define as "probable cause" in case it was a term used by LE in reference to Terri. I don't think the lack of a solid alibi constitutes probable cause. Obviously they had enough to conduct search warrants on Terri and her friends. And yes, LE can look for a more "lenient" judge to sign the warrants, BUT all judges are held to the same standard. I highly doubt LE would risk losing any evidence by having items obtained in a search warrant thrown out, because that is what would happen if its later determined that they did not have the necessary "probable cause" to search. Its a high profile case, they will make sure their bases are covered because any slip ups will be magnified.

 

[Day Dreamer]

Here is my take (if I am wrong please correct me) ...

Once they name Terri as a POI (or arrest her) they will have to provide Terri's attorney w/ discovery (what they have on her to charge her). That will give Terri and her attorney the upper hand. At this point, they can only speculate on what all LE has been able to uncover. LE may have something else explosive that they are holding close to vest. In this case nothing would surprise me.

Right now, I feel that LE is still gathering information, especially since Kyron has not been found, and making sure their case is air tight. None of us want them to jump the gun. IF Terri is responsible I want LE to have all of their t's crossed and i's dotted to make sure she will not walk.

I actually agree w/ LE not arresting Terri at this point ... it gives LE the upper hand. While Kyron is still missing and LE still needs more tips and information to find him then he has to remain priority #1. I am sure that Terri's every move and every communication is being monitored. I am also sure Kaine is working closely w/ LE as well as probably having someone watch him for his and baby K's safety.

Yes, LE could have probable cause to arrest Terri. Would it be the right move at this point? I'm comfortable leaving that decision up to LE and the DA. I do not want to see anything come up to cause her to get off on a technicality. I want the guilty person to face responsibility and be properly punished ... whether that be Terri or Terri & a friend, or someone completely different.