Tiger kills man at San Francisco Zoo

[Littledeer]

DS:

Actually my post was not for defending you, or disputing you.

Just my thought.

I am an animal lover, and Titania was a beautiful "wild" animal in a cage that many, many, childen and adults enjoyed seeing while she was there.

I am sure, that to the Zoo employees that she was considered "tame". As I said before, you can never take the "wild" of out an animal. It is "Inbred".

If the surrounding fence was lower than the regulations called for, then people will wonder, why now would Titania jump??

Was it the "inbred" instinct of freedom? Was it a little taunting? Was it a mistake the keepers?

So far, the facts are that, one 17 year old is dead, 2 have been maimed, and Titania was shot to death.

The brothers seem to be involved somehow with the above post by Buzz. Maybe one of them taunted Titania.............???

DS: I'd give you hugs and kisses...........but don't know how!

 

[dark_shadows]

To my very dearest JanetElaine,:blowkiss:
I appreciate your support with all of my heart.
It really means alot to me.

So very much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

 

[Littledeer]

Seems, according to the above news releases, that possibly one of the brothers was involved in the reason of how and/or why Titania got loose.

I can understand their apprehension on being totally honest if one or both might go to jail...........but, I am also hoping that the one that Carlos saved.............relives that time in his dreams or even during the day, and comes forward with the truth.

 

[colomom]

DS:

~snip~

I am sure, that to the Zoo employees that she was considered "tame". As I said before, you can never take the "wild" of out an animal. It is "Inbred".

~snip~

Considering that she attacked her keeper and then "methodically ate her arm", I doubt that the keepers (or employees) considered her "tame".

In fact, it is amazing to me that they did not consider her extremely dangerous....

 

[LionRun]

Because of the varying information in the many reports we have read it has become confusing as to what the facts were involving all things about this case. Add to that the fact that even our own speculations and theories sometimes take on a life of their own to almost become pseudo-facts. So I understand Buzz's frustration in trying to keep facts straight--if that is what Buzz and others were trying to do. (Sorry folks if I am mistaken about your efforts).

On the other hand, we are all pretty much on the same team, even if our opinions and beliefs vary somewhat. We want justice, and it hurts us when others have been hurt or killed, and for some of us this may include the tiger. Shadows was simply reporting what she had read as accurately as she could. Let's not bark at each other and instead work together on this. The reports, speculations, theories, and, "facts" from LE, Zoo officials, animal experts and the media have gone seven ways to sideways. But, we are just trying to discern fact from all of this, "stuff".

Lion

 

[Pharlap]

Just heard on Nancy Graces's show, that Zoo sells beer and wine.
Woow.:waitasec:

Both zoo's in Chicago don't.
I don't think they should...
JMO

 

[Buzz Mills]

Buzz, you are ignoring the fact that the zoo employee of the photo booth at the Terrace Cafe stated it was pitch black there after 5:00. You live further south and probably have good lighting at your house. Why would the police need flood lights brought in, if it was sufficiently light?

He is wrong. It's 5:20PM and I can easily see 600 yards down my street.

They began their investigation after dark.

 

[Buzz Mills]

Why are you so adamant that it wasn't dark out when the officers came across the body of Souza? The attack happened shortly after 5 pm, now depending on what your view of 'shortly' is, let us say that is beteen 5:05-5:10 pm (15 minutes after sunset). The police were there not at the time of the attack, they came in later. How much later? I'd say 10 minutes at least to get to the zoo. That makes it 5:15-5:20 (25 minutes after sunset and 10 minutes before when you say it's completely dark). Give them a couple of minutes to reach the tiger grotto and find the body, and it's pretty darn close to 'fully dark' if you ask me.... at which point in time a shade below fully dark probably did not make much of a difference. I'm thinking too that your argument needs filed under 'semantics'.

Begging your pardon, but it wasn't pitch dark at 5:00PM, and it isn't yet dark at 5:20PM.

They had all of the times, and everything was over by 5:20PM if I read it correctly.

Sunset: 4:55pm
Twi: 5:25pm
Twi N: 5:58pm Nautical twilight if you are on the water.
Twi A: 6:29pm

 

[LionRun]

On Nancy Grace right now they are talking about this case. It is reported that both young men have separate cases where they resisted arrest. It is also reported that both of them are and have been uncooperative with not just LE, but hospital staff. They reportedly swore at one or more of the medical staff, they refused to give their real names to LE, and they refused to name the 17 year old boy who was killed. I also read a report where the resisting of arrest in at least one case involved the chasing of two other men. It is on this thread somewhere, IIRC.

Pat Brown, criminal profiler stated that this is not normal behavior for these two young men that were innocent victims of a tiger attack. I completely agree. However, I would like to learn all of the facts, and I hope they will be made public.

This does not take away from the fact that the enclosure was not secure. The enclosure should have been built like a fortress allowing not even the most driven of animals to be able to escape.

It doesn't have to be all the zoo's fault or all of the young men's fault. It may instead be a complete breakdown in security resulting from several factors where more than one party was responsible for this tragedy. And, this is not a 50/50 thing. Each party, if found responsible is responsible for 100% of their own actions and/or failures.

Lion

 

[LinasK]

On Nancy Grace right now they are talking about this case. It is reported that both young men have separate cases where they resisted arrest. It is also reported that both of them are and have been uncooperative with not just LE, but hospital staff. They reportedly swore at one or more of the medical staff, they refused to give their real names to LE, and they refused to name the 17 year old boy who was killed. I also read a report where the resisting of arrest in at least one case involved the chasing of two other men. It is on this thread somewhere, IIRC.

Pat Brown, criminal profiler stated that this is not normal behavior for these two young men that were innocent victims of a tiger attack. I completely agree. However, I would like to learn all of the facts, and I hope they will be made public.

This does not take away from the fact that the enclosure was not secure. The enclosure should have been built like a fortress allowing not even the most driven of animals to be able to escape.

It doesn't have to be all the zoo's fault or all of the young men's fault. It may instead be a complete breakdown in security resulting from several factors where more than one party was responsible for this tragedy. And, this is not a 50/50 thing. Each party, if found responsible is responsible for 100% of their own actions and/or failures.

Lion

I agree Lion, I think it's a tragic combination of factors. The zoo relied on 40-year-old insufficiently high fencing and these guys have a history of combativeness, so I think it's highly probable that the brothers taunted and agitated the tiger and got more than they bargained for. The brothers also flat out lied about Souza's whereabouts when his father called them at 4:00 to ask where his son was. Souza had poor choices for friends, it got him killed. I want the zoo director fired for lying about the height of the fences and not taking sufficient measures with a tiger known to bite humans only 1 year ago! Also there was an article by a woman last year who said the tigers were trying to climb the walls of the enclosure!
These guys have wrecked the zoo for all of us. If it even re-opens, I don't know that I'll be taking my daughter like I had planned in the spring. I only hope that it leads to better, safer, and more naturalistic zoo enclosures for animals, not cages.

 

[LionRun]

Just heard on Nancy Graces's show, that Zoo sells beer and wine.
Woow.:waitasec:

Both zoo's in Chicago don't.
I don't think they should...
JMO

I couldn't agree more, Pharlap! How much sense does it make? Okay, the zoos need funding and need to make money, and I understand and want for that to happen. I believe in zoos so long as the animals are happy in a natural habitat, it benefits the species, educates and teaches people to care and conserve wildlife, and all are kept safely. But, surely there must be better ways to make money.

Lion

 

[Buzz Mills]

San Francisco Zoo to Reopen January 3 Following Tiger Attack

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318709,00.html

 

[LionRun]

Did the zoo director lie? Or was he misinformed? There is sooooo much to know about what is going on in a zoo. He may have been told this or it may be falsely recorded. It may be that only once it was measured after this tragedy that even the zoo director learned the true height. The zoo director may be responsible for not knowing the correct height, thereby knowing it should have been fixed. But, the zoo director is not necessarily a liar. Who knows, maybe he did lie. But we simply don't know that.

Lion

 

[southcitymom]

Did the zoo director lie? Or was he misinformed? There is sooooo much to know about what is going on in a zoo. He may have been told this or it may be falsely recorded. It may be that only once it was measured after this tragedy that even the zoo director learned the true height. The zoo director may be responsible for not knowing the correct height, thereby knowing it should have been fixed. But, the zoo director is not necessarily a liar. Who knows, maybe he did lie. But we simply don't know that.

Lion

I agree, Lion. The good news is that now the fence inadequacy is known and can be addressed, though it goes without saying that it is tragic a person had to die for this information to come to light.

I too am more and more curious at the wounded brothers' odd behavior.

 

[boody]

Sounds like Tatiana was just trying to distribute a little natural selection.

 

[LionRun]

I agree, Lion. The good news is that now the fence inadequacy is known and can be addressed, though it goes without saying that it is tragic a person had to die for this information to come to light.

I too am more and more curious at the wounded brothers' odd behavior.

Hi ssmom:blowkiss:. If we learn from this tragedy and make changes that effect other's, including the wildlife, positively, then the death of this 17 year old boy was not all in vain. So, cliche, but hindsight is 20/20.

Lion

 

[Fermi]

Considering that she attacked her keeper and then "methodically ate her arm", I doubt that the keepers (or employees) considered her "tame". In fact, it is amazing to me that they did not consider her extremely dangerous....

Colomom, I respectfully disagree here.

I have read this entire thread and also all of the news reports concerning this tragedy. I disagree that this tigress "attacked her keeper" and then "methodically ate her arm".

This keeper was feeding her, dropped a chunk of meat - which Tatiana was trying to retrieve herself. Why the keeper, who should have known better, would reach into her enclosure to retrieve the meat is beyond me. She may have thought she was "helping" but the first rule she should have learned when feeding wild animals is to NEVER, EVER get between them and their food.

This keeper most assuredly incited a very normal reaction from T. She did not see this woman as her keeper or friend, she saw her, at this moment, as competition for her food.

T did not "methodically" eat her arm, she merely reacted to someone, a predator, trying to "steal" her dinner.

I do not see this as an "attack" at all. This was a reaction to the action.

 

[southcitymom]

Hi ssmom:blowkiss:. If we learn from this tragedy and make changes that effect other's, including the wildlife, positively, then the death of this 17 year old boy was not all in vain. So, cliche, but hindsight is 20/20.

Lion

It's always lovely to see you, Lion. :blowkiss: You are right - all we can really do is try to figure out what happened and learn from it.

 

[Nova]

Did the zoo director lie? Or was he misinformed? There is sooooo much to know about what is going on in a zoo. He may have been told this or it may be falsely recorded. It may be that only once it was measured after this tragedy that even the zoo director learned the true height. The zoo director may be responsible for not knowing the correct height, thereby knowing it should have been fixed. But, the zoo director is not necessarily a liar. Who knows, maybe he did lie. But we simply don't know that.

Lion

Great--I repeat, GREAT--job of summing up the issues here and the state of our knowledge. Not just in this post, but in several. :clap:

 

[Nova]

Colomom, I respectfully disagree here.

I have read this entire thread and also all of the news reports concerning this tragedy. I disagree that this tigress "attacked her keeper" and then "methodically ate her arm".

This keeper was feeding her, dropped a chunk of meat - which Tatiana was trying to retrieve herself. Why the keeper, who should have known better, would reach into her enclosure to retrieve the meat is beyond me. She may have thought she was "helping" but the first rule she should have learned when feeding wild animals is to NEVER, EVER get between them and their food.

This keeper most assuredly incited a very normal reaction from T. She did not see this woman as her keeper or friend, she saw her, at this moment, as competition for her food.

T did not "methodically" eat her arm, she merely reacted to someone, a predator, trying to "steal" her dinner.

I do not see this as an "attack" at all. This was a reaction to the action.

Yes, but it's hardly accurate to call the tiger "tame." I think that's what the poster was saying. Few if any of us are blaming the tiger, really, but "tame" goes too far.