Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich chgd w/Murder; Christina Noudga, Accessory #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #441
I find that quote interesting as well. IMO, the accused shouldn't be too worried about what's being reported in MSM but rather focus on the disclosure documents since that's really the evidence the Crown has to proceed with the case. The disclosure is what the AG saw to proceed with her direct indictment ruling.
I find it interesting that DM's concerned about MSM reports-perhaps simply an ego thing?

Since DM is not telling his story, MSM is. However it’s apparent DM wants to be in charge of it (no doubt why he did the Star jailhouse interview, and writes so prolifically to groupies). He really, really, really wants to show off his perceived strength, his personality and charm, IMO but his lawyer won’t let him, and the press isn’t singing the song he wants to hear.

Remember, “My tongue’s the only muscle on my body that works harder than my heart”, that lyric from the song he so adored that he had some of it tattooed on his body? IMO DM is a cunning linguist. Surely he is used to being able to talk his way out of things. It must be a tremendous irritant to be tongue-tied by DP.

Interestingly the reason that the Bathtub Murderers were caught is that dozens of people knew what went down: the girls told many, many, people that they had killed their mother, including boys they were trying to impress. You wonder, with DM’s hard-working tongue and large circle of friends, if the truth ever did get out among them, or if he simply said too much.

DM now has the right to remain silent: does he have the capacity? Nooo…now was this always a problem? Hmm…

IMHO, LE have done an incredible job keeping things under wraps with this case and MSM articles have been few and far between. This isn't a case that we hear on the news everyday. DM does make an interesting point though. He does seem to be viewing MSM articles as "facts" and then goes onto say the MSM articles don't line up with the evidence that LE have collected and disclosed to him. So, MSM obviously have a few things wrong?

Isn’t it strange to be doing battle against the papers instead of railing that the disclosure has a few things wrong? I mean, only people on the outside make the papers their primary source of information. DM, being in on what is going on, has the real goods--the disclosure of the evidence that is going to be used against him in court--in his hands. You’d think that was what is important.

Here you can make the case that he is a manipulative person, because his focus is on the media other people are seeing and other people’s perceptions of him and a day when “people will again smile and say good things about me”, and not on the problem at hand, his legal case.

OTOH, you could say that the strongest thing in his favour is lawyer-seeded reputation as a humble prep-school kid who has never been in any kind of trouble. IMO DM needs to do a lot of reputation management to make sure people sing like a choir with the same tune. Maybe he is working on his case, in his own way, knowing that. I want to help you out and buy you things, honest! Perhaps he is honestly worried about people testifying against him, and so has put people’s perception of him as his priority. I will give you driving lessons and take you to Jamaica, just listen to meeeee!

No doubt MSM has some details wrong. They are after all lacking a lot of them. But what does the Crown know?

IMO, DM should be more concerned with those disclosure documents than anything reported in MSM.
"the facts" that keep getting repeated in MSM? OK, what are the facts that MSM keep saying?
TB put his truck for sale on kijiji and auto trader
DM called TB with a burner phone
DM and MS went to TB's house
There wasn't a 3rd person
The Yukon made the trip
TB was found at the farm
TB was burnt
There was an incinerator
TB's truck was found in a trailer at DM's mothers house.
DM was the youngest person to get a helicopter and fixed wing pilots license in one day.
DM went to Toronto French School
DM has a tattoo
DM took another truck for a test drive

IMHO, these are the recurring so called "facts" that MSM keep reporting and that DM insists don't match up with the disclosure documents he's been given. Interesting. Feel free to add more "MSM facts". MOO

Another:

DM is a millionaire.

Maybe that’s what he’s bristling at: he never got a chance to play with the money the way he truly wanted.
 
  • #442
IMHO, DM's treatment in jail may be telling of his ability to manipulate his environment. Perhaps DM knows exactly what to do and when to do it to make the most of every situation. CM for example was a crusty old aviator, who probably didn't tolerate fools easily, yet he was more than willing to give DM free reign of the hangar at Pearson. Just seems to go against the grain with who CM was in business. IMO, DM's raves would have drawn a bit of attention. Seems to me that DM had WM and MB wrapped around his finger as well, so it doesn't surprise me that he's able to play his cards very well at Barton. After all, he's getting a lot more with sugar than with vinegar...isn't he?
Eddie Haskell? Isn’t it charming that he writes oh bother I’ve lost my Rolling Stones rather than dropping an F-bomb as happens every few seconds in the kind of shops and garages in which he was raised? I think that’s delightful and shows great adaptability.

As far as the guards liking him? IMHO, DM probably looks like a golden child as compared to the druggies and thugs that line the corridors, so why wouldn't they like him? He would look a lot more like a "white collar crime" type of guy than a serial killer. Unfortunately for DM, the jail guards aren't the jury. JMHO

From a guard’s point of view, well, DM writes of being a spectator and not a participant in the madness in Barton. Additionally DM is a high school grad and you have to have high school to be a guard, so they are peers educationally. What’s not to like?

I am sure the guards make enough to hit the tourist traps like the Parthenon. I’m sure enough of them are second generation Canadians that have gone “home” to visit family in Croatia, or the like. Most people have made it to the Caribbean, even going as a kid counts. DM’s never made a long-haul trip to Japan or Australia or Thailand or India, or made it to Africa like some of his peers, despite his wealth. (Hmmm, speaking of widening his experience while in jail, I am impressed that he has given up On War (no doubt DP buys these buy the case to dish out to clients) in favour of the doctrines of non-violence of Mahatma Gandhi. Good for the image.) Anyway, the golden age of flying is long gone, in the US and Europe airfare rivals bus fare prices, and everybody’s been on a plane. DM’s travel experiences aren’t even special.

In a lot of respects, he is just a regular guy with a life little different from the guards (but with big, big aspirations (not to be mistaken for ambition)). He’s got a plan for every cent he believes he has. In his future, he sees spend, spend, spend. (And not in WM’s style, I’ll buy anything you want in the whole Zellers…nice things, pretty things, high status things and experiences, and bought friends.) DM writes like he’s hanging on to a winning Lotto Max ticket.
As for DM convincing other prisoners and guards of his innocence, what, with magic? Charm? Because he can’t get into the FACTS of the case. He can’t provide EVIDENCE. All he’s got is, as reported, a pair of doe eyes. Maybe he should get on CBS and show the jury pool how they work.

So DM spends hours talking to a prisoner or guard. At the end of it DM is convinced the prisoner/guard is convinced DM didn’t do it. In reality the prisoner/guard goes away thinking holy **** this guy’s either innocent or a real freaking psychopath. Remember, context is key ;) and everybody is in jail here. DM is the star of Project Capella…I doubt they would sell the whole show on him if they hadn’t truly identified the headliner.

Of course how often do you meet some friendly guy who would throw money at you and party with you if only he weren’t in jail? I’m sure his endless promises to spend money on people influences their opinion of him somewhat.
 
  • #443
DM is the star of Project Capella…I doubt they would sell the whole show on him if they hadn’t truly identified the headliner.

Slightly o/t, but it's a misnomer that Capella is the brightest star in its constellation - it's actually comprised of two stars that are nearly identical, as well as a binary of smaller stars. So basically, Capella has not one, but two 'headliners'.

http://earthsky.org/brightest-stars/capella-is-the-stellar-beacon-of-auriga-the-charioteer
 
  • #444
Snooper, I'm a bit perplexed by the detailed psychological analysis. Are these your professional opinions? Are you a WS certified insider, by any chance?
 
  • #445
  • #446
Nothing personal, but you probably shouldn't put something in quotation marks if you're going to misquote it. That can be misleading. Kind of like quoting letters and pretending that three dots (...) will make it clear to the readers that one is quoting completely different letters, thereby nudging the readers to the same opinion as the author's.

JMO

Thanks for the correction. I obviously misremembered, and it should have read:

“I am heaven sent” and “Don’t you dare forget.”

from:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...didnt_kill_tim_bosma_exclusive_interview.html
 
  • #447
Since DM is not telling his story, MSM is. However it’s apparent DM wants to be in charge of it (no doubt why he did the Star jailhouse interview, and writes so prolifically to groupies). He really, really, really wants to show off his perceived strength, his personality and charm, IMO but his lawyer won’t let him, and the press isn’t singing the song he wants to hear.

Remember, “My tongue’s the only muscle on my body that works harder than my heart”, that lyric from the song he so adored that he had some of it tattooed on his body? IMO DM is a cunning linguist. Surely he is used to being able to talk his way out of things. It must be a tremendous irritant to be tongue-tied by DP.

Interestingly the reason that the Bathtub Murderers were caught is that dozens of people knew what went down: the girls told many, many, people that they had killed their mother, including boys they were trying to impress. You wonder, with DM’s hard-working tongue and large circle of friends, if the truth ever did get out among them, or if he simply said too much.

DM now has the right to remain silent: does he have the capacity? Nooo…now was this always a problem? Hmm…



Isn’t it strange to be doing battle against the papers instead of railing that the disclosure has a few things wrong? I mean, only people on the outside make the papers their primary source of information. DM, being in on what is going on, has the real goods--the disclosure of the evidence that is going to be used against him in court--in his hands. You’d think that was what is important.

Here you can make the case that he is a manipulative person, because his focus is on the media other people are seeing and other people’s perceptions of him and a day when “people will again smile and say good things about me”, and not on the problem at hand, his legal case.

OTOH, you could say that the strongest thing in his favour is lawyer-seeded reputation as a humble prep-school kid who has never been in any kind of trouble. IMO DM needs to do a lot of reputation management to make sure people sing like a choir with the same tune. Maybe he is working on his case, in his own way, knowing that. I want to help you out and buy you things, honest! Perhaps he is honestly worried about people testifying against him, and so has put people’s perception of him as his priority. I will give you driving lessons and take you to Jamaica, just listen to meeeee!

No doubt MSM has some details wrong. They are after all lacking a lot of them. But what does the Crown know?



Another:

DM is a millionaire.

Maybe that’s what he’s bristling at: he never got a chance to play with the money the way he truly wanted.

Welcome back SD! I always enjoy reading your well thought out, in depth posts. :)

Woah! Maybe the point you added to MsSherlock's list is one of the "facts" DM is referring to. Many of the write ups in the MSM make reference to DM/WM having millions of dollars. The huge question from day one, why would someone who could afford to go out and buy a Dodge Ram, if he wanted one, murder someone for theirs?

I've had my doubts for a long time as to whether WM and DM had a fortune until CM passed away. Did WM invested his inheritance in the hangar? Did DM feel bitter about his father's investment, something he had no interest in? Did WM give DM the $800,000 to invest in the farmland property from CM's estate and wanted to make sure the money was going to be invested wisely (WM visiting the farmland with DM)? It may have been WM's suggestion that DM buy the property, build his own house, an initiative to get DM to leave his house. Could it be WM had good reason to be frugal, the money just wasn't there? MOO.

But this ******** news is really beginning to bother me. It’s not the frequency of the articles. It’s the content … and I can’t even tell you, because it’s directly about the case… but what I will say, is that “the facts” they keep repeating, don’t match the disclosure I am given. I thought by now some, even one, of those so called ‘investigative’ journalists would have picked up on some of discrepancies in what police are telling them. I thought the public might have noticed some of the things that are out of place in the news articles.
 
  • #448
There are those of us who have been repeating that something doesn't pass the sniff test in this case. Maybe we will keep digging and looking as our minds are open to finding the truth, I know I will.

Just a thought, if DM was driving the Yukon and the Yukon followed the truck, I wonder if that means that DM was the chauffeur. We know its not likely he needed a truck. Did he even stay once test drive began? How many people were there? How many people showed up at some place to view the truck? Was money paid for the truck? Did someone offer TB ride home after money was paid? Who was going to drive him home if thats the case? Was he then robbed of the money he had been paid?

All of these questions and many more are not answered. IMO

BBM - Huh? :thinking: We know it's not likely he needed a truck?? :thinking: Says who? LE believe the motive was the truck. The perps test drove another Dodge Ram the day before, plus apparently had interest in another truck owned by another guy who just so happened to have slept in, a test drive could not be arranged. Maybe they didn't need the truck but just wanted it? Maybe it just seemed like a good excuse for luring a victim to murder and incinerate? Did he even stay once the test drive began?? :thinking: Why bother to call from a burner phone and set up test drives for a few trucks and then show up at their business or place of residence then? Myself I would let those people interested do their own leg work. Interesting point, IF there were others involved, they haven't been caught and no one has come forward claiming to be an innocent bystander. I highly doubt money exchanged hands...very unprofessional and not the way most adult men would handle a sales transaction of a vehicle involving a large sum of money. TB was a business man, I'm sure he had more common sense then that. MOO.
 
  • #449
Not naming the other accused doesn't mean he didn't try to tell his side of the story, no matter what his side was at the time. If I recall correctly, they had him in there for quite a while before charging him. But yes, once DP was on the scene, he was maintaining his right to remain silent.

(Too late to edit and correct, but the news conference was from May 14th, not May 10th as I indicated in my previous post. Just to note my error.)

Yes they did have DM in there for quite some time...almost 24 hours IIRC. They also had MR in for questioning for quite some time and from what I've seem of his interrogation, he didn't say much more than "I didn't do anything", "Terri Lynn's a liar" and "I want to speak with a lawyer". He coward under his blankie, sniffling, sipping his tea and acted like the wimp that he is. We all learned the truth in the end though in that case. He was the motivator/instigator who planned Tori's abduction and murder for his own warped, sexual satisfaction.

I provided another link stating DM had maintained his right to remain silent. I believe so far and maintain are the ultimate words. Believe what you like. MOO.

Millard has so far maintained his right to remain silent, but his lawyer said the public “will likely hear his side of the story” when the case goes to trial a few years from now.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/15/tim-bosma-murder-suspect-dellen-millard-in-hamilton-court
 
  • #450
I believe Abro is now only posting on her own blog. She has only taken a pounding here when needed IMO. She is quite capable of pounding others even when not needed so I agree with you journalists have to be very thick skinned. Truth is based on perspective and not all journalists have the right one but that is just my opinion. When people write for profit there is IMO a different perspective. Each journalist having their own. Posters here are not writing for any profit, many of us seek the truth and also have a desire for justice not simply a desire to pound anyone with charges.

And some are grateful to have more information and perspective into who the accused are to help them understand and get a clearer, more precise, picture about the accused. Many people are interested in knowing what type of people do such horrific things such as murder, rape, torture, abduction and paedophilia. I guess those who know the accused couldn't care less as they already know the accused and wouldn't see anyones information as insightful. They would deter anyone from leaking information. They would view it as a form of digging up dirt or bashing. Personally I haven't seen bashing of the accused in ABro's writings. She is just stating facts and remaining neutral. If she implies she believes DM and MS are guilty of these murders, I tend to believe she has been privy to information (obviously which she cannot share at this time) to base her statements on. And no I don't follow the sheeple, I have my own train of though to ride. :D We all have the choice in what we read and the choice of what to ignore in the media. JMO.
 
  • #451
Yes they did have him in there for quite some time...almost 24 hours IIRC. They also had MR in for questioning for quite some time and from what I've seem of his interrogation, he didn't say much more than "I didn't do anything", "Terri Lynn's a liar" and "I want to speak with a lawyer". He coward under his blankie, sniffling, sipping his tea and acted like the wimp that he is. We all learned the truth in the end though. He was the motivator/instigator who planned Tori's abduction and murder for his own warped, sexual satisfaction.

I provided another link stating DM had maintained his right to remain silent. I believe so far and maintain are the ultimate words. Believe what you like. MOO.

Millard has so far maintained his right to remain silent, but his lawyer said the public “will likely hear his side of the story” when the case goes to trial a few years from now.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/15/tim-bosma-murder-suspect-dellen-millard-in-hamilton-court

Huh? Respectfuly, may I ask what you're referring to? Who is Terri Lynn? Is it a reference to some other case? Another Ancaster thing or ??? Maybe there are enough riddles in this situation, IMO, without introducing another one. MOO. Are you saying there may have been a sex motivation for the Bosma abduction? I've never heard that before. Do you have a link?
 
  • #452
Even if there was no one else who showed up later, there is still the possibility that DM was the one following in the Yukon and, as Kavanaugh said when they first found out about the Yukon, only played a minor role. We will have to wait until the trial to find out what role the Yukon played and who was driving it. All we know at this point is that Kavanaugh suggested that MS could have got out of TB's truck and into the Yukon and there may not be a third suspect. He could very well have based that assumption on the fact that it was said the tall one was driving the truck when they left. Kavanaugh also said that they did not know who was driving or how many were in TB's truck when it was seen in Brantford.

JMO

IIRC MS did not have a valid driver's license. If it was only MS and TB that night wanting to do the test drive, wouldn't you assume TB would ask to see the driver's license before he would let someone drive his truck? I know I would, otherwise they would not be getting behind the steering wheel of my vehicle.

Could this have been why TB was murdered? Because he had at least one of the names of the accused and if they just stole his truck and let him go, good chance TB could identify him by name? Did the business owner demand DM show him his license the day before and this is why MS and DM didn't carry out their assumed intended plan of stealing his truck and murdering him? Car dealerships do it that way and I'm sure TB had test drove may vehicles in his past, had that knowledge and would want to make sure the driver of his truck was a valid licensed driver. Same with the business owner. If you take a vehicle out on a test drive, the agent always photocopies your license. Did the business owner take a copy of DM's license at the office? Did DM know this? DM and MS were already in the thick of things and decided to follow through on the test drive anyhow, not to seem suspicious but trashing the rest of their plan? Did DM have fake license? Was LE able to go to some of these joints with the fake license (photocopy from business owner's business) and find out who the real person was on the fake license? Did LE find the fake license on one of the accused computers? DM was the first to be arrested. Why? Because someone was able to identify his picture on the license along with his tattoos? TWT and MOO.
 
  • #453
Huh? Respectfuly, may I ask what you're referring to? Who is Terri Lynn? Is it a reference to some other case? Another Ancaster thing or ??? Maybe there are enough riddles in this situation, IMO, without introducing another one. MOO. Are you saying there may have been a sex motivation for the Bosma abduction? I've never heard that before. Do you have a link?

I was replying to AD and she is familiar the case involving MR, Terri Lynn and Tori. I was certain all regular posters on TB's forum were familiar with these people as some have referred to them numerous times on TB's forum. Would you like a link to the case I am referring to? Where did you get the notion that I was saying TB's murder may have been sexually motivated? MOO.
 
  • #454
And some are grateful to have more information and perspective into who the accused are to help them understand and get a clearer more precise, picture about the accused. Many people are interested in knowing what type of people do such horrific things such as murder, rape, torture, abduction and paedophilia. I guess those who know the accused couldn't care less as they already know the accused and wouldn't see anyones' information as insightful. They would deter anyone from leaking information. They would view it as a form of digging up dirt or bashing. Personally I haven't seen bashing of the accused in ABro's writings. She is just stating facts and remaining neutral. If she is states that she believes DM and MS are guilty of these murders, I tend to believe she has been privy to information (obviously which she cannot share at this time) to base her statements on. And no I don't follow the sheeple, I have my own train of though to ride. :D We all have the choice in what we read and what we can ignore in the media. JMO.

Respectfully, this is why healthy people engage in what is known as a "willing suspension of disbelief" to enjoy movies, operas, theatrical performances, videos, pageants and even the occasional religious celebration. All of these feature imaginary events or dramatic reenactments presented by actors in a highly controlled environment. The point is that through experiencing such fictitious events and entertainments, viewers may come to a greater understanding of themselves and the world around them.

That is a disturbingly far cry removed from transferring oneself into the minds and emotions of real life murderers or their victims, IMO. I can see why such an exercise might be useful in the field of psychology or criminology. IMO. MOO. But for instance, as a non-professional I see little point in trying to imagine why a crazy person carries out a crazy act. Spoiler alert. Because they're having a manic episode? What can I, as a disinterested observer learn from imagining what a crazed person must be thinking? Just MHO.

Incidentally, and marginally OT, why does it matter to know how much money, or how little, the Millard family had or has?
 
  • #455
I was replying to AD and she is familiar the case involving MR, Terri Lynn and Tori. I was certain all regular posters on TB's forum were familiar with these people as some have referred to them numerous times on TB's forum. Would you like a link to the case I am referring to? Where did you get the notion that I was saying TB's murder may have been sexually motivated? MOO.

I see. I hadn't noticed and no, I'm not interested in following some other case, but tnx anyway. Your msg suggested this other case had some kind of sexual motivation component so that's why I presumed it was being mentioned. Sorry for the mistake.
 
  • #456
Respectfully, this is why healthy people engage in what is known as a "willing suspension of disbelief" to enjoy movies, operas, theatrical performances, videos, pageants and even the occasional religious celebration. All of these feature imaginary events or dramatic reenactments presented by actors in a highly controlled environment. The point is that through experiencing such fictitious events and entertainments, viewers may come to a greater understanding of themselves and the world around them.

That is a disturbingly far cry removed from transferring oneself into the minds and emotions of real life murderers or their victims, IMO. I can see why such an exercise might be useful in the field of psychology or criminology. IMO. MOO. But for instance, as a non-professional I see little point in trying to imagine why a crazy person carries out a crazy act. Spoiler alert. Because they're having a manic episode? What can I, as a disinterested observer learn from imagining what a crazed person must be thinking? Just MHO.

Incidentally, and marginally OT, why does it matter to know how much money, or how little, the Millard family had or has?

UBM - More interested in the life a crazy person, such as their background, the opinions/views about them self, their interests, likes, dislikes, the way they view others, the world, coping mechanisms, etc. When the information is almost limitless and there is interest, one shouldn't cut themselves short and have tunnel vision. To determine ones guilt or innocence, as armchair detectives, wouldn't it be advisable to be playing with a full deck as opposed to half a deck? No? MOO.

BBM - Motive for murdering his father? Motive for wanting to steal someone's truck?
 
  • #457
UBM - More interested in the life a crazy person, such as their background, the opinions/views about them self, their interests, likes, dislikes, the way they view others, the world, coping mechanisms, etc. When the information is almost limitless and there is interest, one shouldn't cut themselves short and have tunnel vision. To determine ones guilt or innocence, as armchair detectives, wouldn't it be advisable to be playing with a full deck as opposed to half a deck? No? MOO.

BBM - Motive for murdering his father? Motive for wanting to steal someone's truck?

Being that DM already had several vehicles that he used or could sell if needed, do we really need to ascertain whether or not he had money to buy a truck? We already know that the farm was in his name, so I presume he could have sold that too. He also bought things for his friends, so IMO I don't see why we need to know that he had millions when it's apparent he has enough to buy cars, gifts and real estate. JMO
 
  • #458
Correction to post 452, If it was only MS and TB that night wanting to do the test drive,
Should be MS and DM...
 
  • #459
Being that DM already had several vehicles that he used or could sell if needed, do we really need to ascertain whether or not he had money to buy a truck? We already know that the farm was in his name, so I presume he could have sold that too. He also bought things for his friends, so IMO I don't see why we need to know that he had millions when it's apparent he has enough to buy cars, gifts and real estate. JMO

Typically, what is the purpose of thugs stealing vehicles? I always thought it was to make money. :thinking: Drug dealers sell drugs to make money. Could it be DM made the money to buy those cars, gifts and real estate you mention, by stealing, chopping and selling vehicles? Dealing drugs? Guns? TWT. And the "thrill kill" theory, it's still a possibility in my mind. JMO.
 
  • #460
Respectfully, this is why healthy people engage in what is known as a "willing suspension of disbelief" to enjoy movies, operas, theatrical performances, videos, pageants and even the occasional religious celebration. All of these feature imaginary events or dramatic reenactments presented by actors in a highly controlled environment. The point is that through experiencing such fictitious events and entertainments, viewers may come to a greater understanding of themselves and the world around them.

That is a disturbingly far cry removed from transferring oneself into the minds and emotions of real life murderers or their victims, IMO. I can see why such an exercise might be useful in the field of psychology or criminology. IMO. MOO. But for instance, as a non-professional I see little point in trying to imagine why a crazy person carries out a crazy act. Spoiler alert. Because they're having a manic episode? What can I, as a disinterested observer learn from imagining what a crazed person must be thinking? Just MHO.

Incidentally, and marginally OT, why does it matter to know how much money, or how little, the Millard family had or has?
<bbm>

Whoa, more than a tch of class distinction peaking through? Healthy (more sophisticated?) persons with an interest or involvement in the arts vs those with an interest in psychology or criminology.

I'm sure there are many professionals, non-professionals, and interested observers here who would like to understand and explore the psychology of crime. By contrast, what does a "disinterested observer" wish to explore on a crime sleuthing forum?

Personally, I would rather reach a greater understanding of myself and the world around me through reality as opposed to fantasy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
116
Guests online
2,197
Total visitors
2,313

Forum statistics

Threads
632,524
Messages
18,627,895
Members
243,177
Latest member
jc1216
Back
Top