Timeline Discussion

[tehcloser]

Just stopping by to question, Hi I can prove where I was, except the 1.5 hour I was driving around on "rural" roads :waitasec:

Great timeline and alibi, she's got us there. :angel:

And see, here's another thing. She was supposed to be so good at "doing the deed", that LE is having a wee bit of trouble proving it and finding Kyron, but this "mastermind" couldn't come up with anything better than - Oh yeah, I was driving around on "rural" roads for an hour and a half???? :banghead:

 

[ami]

I guess what I can't get past is how anyone could have a drugged or worse child in their truck, go into grocery stores like nothing was wrong, be missing for 90 minutes (presumably disposing of the child), then go into the gym and work out like nothings wrong. We are not talking about Bundy or Manson here, how, if God forbid, the worse had happened was she able to pull that off? Wouldn't the people in the gym notice if she had been acting strange that day? Or, maybe they did and we just don't know. I just can't wrap my mind around it.

I feel exactly the same. I can't connect the dots here. I know there are sociopaths out there that would feel no remorse, no compunction. But they rarely lead completely normal lives until age 40 and then do something horrific. Usually there are red flags, and not "I felt she was dishonest"... but more of a stream of people with stories that showed she had no empathy, no human connection.

You know how when you read about the Ted Bundys and the Scott Petersons of the world, there are often missing or dead women that were in their sphere at a previous time in their lives. Missing persons cases. Mysterious deaths they were never connected to or charged with, though in retrospect seem to fit the profile of their later crimes. They had a pattern, even if it was secret for a long stretch.

I think TMH's DUI is significant because she had her child in the car and while driving around she could have killed others, but... that doesn't really feel like a premeditated evil pattern. I can't wrap my head around someone committing murder in the first place - a child no less - THEIR child, their charge even less than that. I am scared to think evil could be disguised behind a normal mom-face.

 

[tehcloser]

Look at Casey. She looked happy as Larry walking into the video shop that night and that was most probably just a few hours after killing her baby

I can't compare TH to Casey...Casey was a train wreck waiting to happen. Look at all the things she did before Caylee. From everything we know, TH had lived a fairly stable life up to this point.

 

[Tuffy]

I'm not completely ready to call this story fabricated, although it is suspicious, if true. If she was bound and determined to get in her work-out and maybe was planning on working out with a friend at a certain time (11:30) she may have not wanted to bring the baby home in-between for fear she would not be able to her back out of the house, if baby fell asleep, for example. So she wasted the time, driving and maybe called Dede at 11:15 and said "meet me now, I am going crazy". This is all if she is innocent of course. But when assuming or suspecting she is guilty, this story sounds ludicrous.

As far as feeding her, she could have baby snacks with her and fed her, and either told LE that or didn't or it did not make it into this timeline as it happened between the 10:10-11:30 period for example.

All of this could work, if not for the rumor/info about her cell pings (that could be a rumor started by LE to try to get Terri to tell the truth-except why search SI then?)

So all in all, it may well come down to pings...hope they are very accurate and convincing and defense does not round up a bunch of people who show their phones pinging on SI while they are in rural areas.

This story may have made more sense, if she hadn't thrown in the part about the baby being sick. Why would you drag baby all over town, purposely try to keep her awake, and not feed her lunch (a snack in the car?)

Maybe if we knew that this type of behavior was normal for her. Did she usually treat the baby as an after thought?

Also, on a different thought, 8:45 is when they dropped of Kyron right? What time did they actually leave the house that morning, do we know?

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I might just believe the story of driving baby around to soothe her IF she hadn't already taken her to the science expo and the grocery store and then on to the gym. You only drive your child around for that amount of time if they're truly miserable and she obviously wasn't. Would be interesting to know if she relayed this story to Kaine when he arrived home because I guarantee any parent who has to do that is going to tell the other. Especially since, logically, Kaine would have asked how the baby was. Maybe even "how was your day?" or "What did you do today?"

And the fact they threw in the "rural roads" is a red flag. Who describes the roads they drove on? Having had to drive sleepless babies around, I wouldn't even be able to tell you exactly where I drove. It was just aimless driving.

I'm thinking TH did go to the grocery store and then went back for Kyron. I bet that was her plan all along. That kid that said he saw Kyron in the gym later and also saw the white truck may have been correct. TH leaves the school, telling Kyron to meet her outside the gym at a certain time. She runs to the grocery store to grab a quick alibi and heads back for Kyron.

The grocery thing is hinky, too -- not only did she drive around with whatever she bought for 4 hours, but when she gets home, she said she got on the pc to upload photos, NOT put groceries away. What ever happened to what she bought?

 

[sleuthy sleutherson]

And see, here's another thing. She was supposed to be so good at "doing the deed", that LE is having a wee bit of trouble proving it and finding Kyron, but this "mastermind" couldn't come up with anything better than - Oh yeah, I was driving around on "rural" roads for an hour and a half???? :banghead:

Well look at Haleigh, got some real masterminds there and no one knows where she is and what happened to her, just sayin.

 

[ThoughtFox]

I feel exactly the same. I can't connect the dots here. I know there are sociopaths out there that would feel no remorse, no compunction. But they rarely lead completely normal lives until age 40 and then do something horrific. Usually there are red flags, and not "I felt she was dishonest"... but more of a stream of people with stories that showed she had no empathy, no human connection.

You know how when you read about the Ted Bundys and the Scott Petersons of the world, there are often missing or dead women that were in their sphere at a previous time in their lives. Missing persons cases. Mysterious deaths they were never connected to or charged with, though in retrospect seem to fit the profile of their later crimes. They had a pattern, even if it was secret for a long stretch.

I think TMH's DUI is significant because she had her child in the car and while driving around she could have killed others, but... that doesn't really feel like a premeditated evil pattern. I can't wrap my head around someone committing murder in the first place - a child no less - THEIR child, their charge even less than that. I am scared to think evil could be disguised behind a normal mom-face.

OK, but people do snap and commit crimes.

And lots of times "normal" people are not as normal as they appear. The BTK killer was a deacon of his church and a scout leader. The man in Germany who kept his daughter locked in the basement having babies was a pillar of his community and didn't abuse his other children. Many serial killers are married and their wives don't suspect a thing until they find out the truth.

And there were some charges against her weren't there? Even if these previous charges fall under "normal" also, they also show a pattern of reckless behavior.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/kyron-hor...d-explosive-court-documents/story?id=11050953

A records search of Terri Horman under her current, maiden and previous married names turned up a DUI conviction in 2005 in which she pleaded guilty not only to driving under the influence, but also to "reckless endangerment of another."

Oregon State Police Lt. Gregg Hastings told ABCNews.com that the endangerment charge stemmed from the fact that her son, who was 11 at the time, was in the vehicle when she was stopped.

A spokeswoman for the court in Marion County, Ore., said Horman was sentenced to 12 months probation, a 90-day suspension of her driver's license and she had to attend alcohol counseling programs and attend a victim impact statement.

In addition, she wracked up nine traffic infractions, including several for speeding and one for driving with an expired license, between 1988 and 2004.

 

[cluciano63]

I don't think it matters where she was or what she was doing if LE cannot prove she left the school with Kyron...unless his body turns out to be near a place her phone pinged.

 

[seeking truth]

So it sounds like from about 10:10 until 11:40, there is nothing to verify her story? Is that about it?

I am wondering what is true, from the time Kaine said good-bye to Kyron that morning until whatever time Terri (and Kyron) were last seen by anyone at the school that morning.

Did Terri ACTUALLY leave Skyline Elementary at 8:45 am?

My answer: NO, she left earlier and she was able to either just walk out with Kyron, or as some have suggested, told him to come out separately and meet her at the truck. I go with her walking out with Kyron. Really, what stands out about that? Nothing; not like a stranger walking out of the school with him. Even a friend of the family's would have stood out much more than Teri and be remembered.

OR, the time of 8:45am was supplied to Terri because someone at the school saw her (and maybe also Kyron) very close to that time, so she molded her story to say that, soon after this person (or persons) saw her (and maybe Kyron), she waved good-bye to Kyron, and Kyron headed off down that long hallway to his classroom, never to be seen again.

As for the rest of her story for that morning and afternoon, there are probably bits of truth thrown in amongst the horror of the TRUTH: The truth being that it is most probable that this step-mother killed Kyron that morning after the science fair and disposed of his body. She tried establishing some alibis by shopping so she would have time-stamped receipts, and and then...this woman was able to go the gym, go home and post on facebook and probably other stuff on her computer (again for selfish, alibi reasons), maintain some sort of normalcy and just lie to her husband when he came home, and then meander down to the bus stop with Kaine and Baby K, to meet a bus that she knew would not be carrying her step-son home that afternoon.

{No real ideas regarding how and if this friend of hers (D. S.) was involved; though her leaving her job and not responding to calls from the people she was working with/for raises some harsh questions, along with her refusal to answer them now}.

That takes a real lack of humanity and a whole lot of self-interest and a missing conscience.

All my thoughts and all my OPINIONS.

 

[SurfieTX]

Also, on a different thought, 8:45 is when they dropped of Kyron right? What time did they actually leave the house that morning, do we know?

Zimmerman, the PTA president, saw Kyron and TH at his project at 8:15. I don't know how far the school is from their house. I'd guess they left at around 7:50 a.m. or so? I forget what time the fair started, 8:00? Anyone know?

 

[angelmom]

Okay, devil's advocate here:

Terri switches cars, planning to bring the science fair project home. Yes, it might fit in the mustang, but maybe not in the back with 2 kids, and maybe not in the trunk with the stroller and groceries she needed.

They go to the IB Expo, walk around for a bit, and Baby K starts fussing and tugging her ear. Ear infection or tired? You just never know. So she decides to head out before the fair is even over, waving goodbye to Kyron at the door instead of going all the way back up the stairs to the classroom, and leaving the project behind. She'll just get it later, right?

The baby calms down in the car, so Terri's thinking maybe she was just tired of the stroller at school, and maybe it is okay to grab the diapers or whatever she absolutely had to have for the day. Runs to the store (or two). Now the baby is fussing again.

ETA: the very specific time could be that she heard the bell as she left the school (8:45) and there is a time stamp on the last store she went to (10:10). That is how she "can prove it."

So she heads home and Baby K starts to drift off to sleep. Knowing that she will wake up if Terri tries to move her to her crib, she just drives a bit to let her sleep. Maybe chats on her cell with friends or listens to the radio. Who knows, who cares? She might have even pulled in somewhere and just sat with the radio on or called a friend while Baby K slept.

I have done some desperate things with a fussy baby. Rural roads? Maybe Baby K loved the horses or cows or whatever and that would make her happy. Maybe she was trying to avoid a lot of traffic and red lights that would wake the baby. Who knows? I think if this had been even moderately planned by someone who has managed to elude police for nearly 2 months, she would have come up with a better alibi than this!

Oops! About 11 something K wakes up, seems perfectly happy now that she's napped. Terri thinks maybe she can get her workout in after all. (PS...my ped has always told me that ear infections are not contagious, so if the baby was happy she's not the worst mother ever for bringing her to the gym.) Off to the gym and then home.

Upload pics, put Baby K down for a real nap OR what I sometimes did when they didn't get enough rest, put them in front of a movie on the couch with a blanket and pillow and hope they at least get some rest. No plans to go back to the talent show because either A) they didn't even know about it (per Kaine) or no interest in taking a fussy toddler back to school during her normal nap time.

I have no idea if Terri is guilty or not. I am on that fence with a bunch of you. But none of the above sounds irrational, abnormal, or suspicious from my days with babies and toddlers.

 

[cluciano63]

I don't know how much before 8:45 she could have left with Kyron...if the school only opened the door at 8:00, she was seen taking photos, and perhaps by other people, etc. and if the boy who claims he saw Kyron in the gym was at all correct (the older boy)...

I think LE has a huge handful of conflicting statements from the people at the school and badly wanted at least one that said Terri left with Kyron and they don't have it. That would be probably be enough, after 7 weeks, to charge her with murder, since we are talking about a child who could not have "gone away to start a new life", like Stacy Peterson did...

 

[liz b.]

yep yep and yep!!! Maybe LE has statements from people at the gym about her behavior and demeanor.

That's why I think the deed was done and over before the 10:10 timemark. The 90 minutes of "driving around" was TH trying to get her head together. Stop the shaking, THINK THINK AND THINK, get the story straight - get her act together. Once she thought she had it together - contact friend to meet at gym and really work-out hard to pump the adrenaline back out.

I wonder if the Kelly sighting at 3 (white truck - red hair) was DeDe. If you look at the maps that "lane" is just "down the street" from the Horman house. Was she watching out? And then again at 2AM? Have to wonder what DeDe's timeline and her whereabouts at those times show.

" THINK,THINK AND THINK,get the story straight. " But, IMO if TH did this,it was premeditated.She would already have the story straight.

A couple of things are troubling to me :

1. Driving around for 90 minutes because the baby had an earache. Does not sound viable. And then taking the baby to the gym.... I've driven around with a baby with colic, but an earache ?

2. Buying groceries,and leaving them in the car for 3 hours. Unlikely,unless she bought no perishables at all. Just barely possible I guess...


I am amazed that TH has not been arrested. I was not convinced that she had anything to do with Kyron's disappearance, but if her alibi is really this flimsy... I'm thinking that there is more,much more that isn't known at this point. Because,IMO, TH rally HAS no alibi for that 90 minute period.

I just don't believe that TH premeditated,and carried out the murder of this child. And I also don't understand the "handing him off " theory. Why,and who would be that foolish to aid and abet kidnapping ? To what end ? It makes very little sense. IMO


All JMO

 

[eyes4crime]

This is the most bizarre story - if Terri did kill Kyron and disposed of him, it's one of those murders we wouldn't expect from a mom - really twisted and sick. I doubt he's in the water or anything mom-like. Think of pedophile child predator, only with motive for making sure the body is never found. moo mho

What the heck is this story about going on rural roads to sooth an earache? The earache story doesn't fit in and I fear it's to cover for something she bought at the store - like Benadryl (diphenhydramine) to put Kyron to sleep. Wonder what she bought that would need a cover-up story? moo

Wonder if Terri went to her friend's house to clean up? Surely she needed to change clothes after murdering and disposing of Kyron. Maybe that's where De was useful. moo

This would be a ruthless, brutal murder of a child by a woman without a psychopathic history. Either signs and patterns were missed by all those close to her or she snapped. A person doesn't just become a murderous psychopath at the age of 40 - there are signs along the way..were they missed by everyone or is she being falsely accused? moo mho :waitasec:

 

[PaulaF513]

Talk about a "red herring". K's reputed earache has absolutely nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance. Nor does it have anything factual to prove TH's whereabouts during a supposedly crucial time.

More to the point, this "timeline" gives no insight into Kyron's whereabouts during the period of 8:45 and roughly 10:10. Where was he? It is dismaying and inconceivable to me that a 7 yo child can leave his school and noone noticed.

 

[cluciano63]

But the flimsy alibi hardly speaks to the premeditation theory, unless she is just one of those dumb criminals who do everything except one thing, like leave their glove behind...

If she had plotted and planned this with the so-called doctor appointment, the truck, etc. why would she not have had someplace she could have been for those 90 minutes? She could have driven to whereever she meant to leave Kyron and bought something nearby, to prove why she went there. Why leave a 90-minute gap of nothingness, if all so plotted?

I always thought something happened as a reult of an accident or a temper on Terri's part and this alibi makes me think so even more. She doesn't know what to say she what she was doing, as she did probably did drive around aimlessly if she had just killed and buried or dumped Kyron and then went to the gym to make her day seem more normal, to have another place on record. She probably even when to the store after killing him, if she did, to have some things on record. But she must not have been driving when and where she said she was if her phone records don't match.

It is a very dumb alibi for a calculating pre-planned crime.

And I still do not know what anyone means by "handing off." Who is out there with hands open to accept a 7-year old boy? To involve themselves in a felony? To do this for Terri? She did not seem to have access to large amounts of money and not too many tried and true criminals are going to take the kid and wait months, or years for the money until child is declared dead or Terri can get a settlement from the school. It might fit with this bizarre case, but I see it as wishful thinking.

 

[ami]

This is the most bizarre story - if Terri did kill Kyron and disposed of him, it's one of those murders we wouldn't expect from a mom - really twisted and sick. I doubt he's in the water or anything mom-like. Think of pedophile child predator, only with motive for making sure the body is never found. moo mho

What the heck is this story about going on rural roads to sooth an earache? The earache story doesn't fit in and I fear it's to cover for something she bought at the store - like Benadryl (diphenhydramine) to put Kyron to sleep. Wonder what she bought that would need a cover-up story? moo

Wonder if Terri went to her friend's house to clean up? Surely she needed to change clothes after murdering and disposing of Kyron. Maybe that's where De was useful. moo

This would be a ruthless, brutal murder of a child by a woman without a psychopathic history. Either signs and patterns were missed by all those close to her or she snapped. A person doesn't just become a murderous psychopath at the age of 40 - there are signs along the way..were they missed by everyone or is she being falsely accused? moo mho :waitasec:

BBM. That's a really interesting point! Because why WOULD she say "earache" when she could have said, "Baby K fell asleep and so I drove around and let her nap for an hour or so."

As a parent, I get that. I've never driven an earache around, but I've driven around to facilitate a nap in progress, that's for sure!

Some kids are picky sleepers and tricky nappers and you feel like you've hit the jackpot when they fall asleep while driving around. You can't do anything like shop or run errands because they're in the car and you can't leave them there alone, so you just meander around until they're done with their nap. Rural roads would make sense for that because there's less traffic.

But instead she said "earache" - so you're right, I wonder if she did say that to create an excuse for buying something medicinal at the store.

 

[seeking truth]

Not even her husband noticed anything wrong. Either she's not involved, or she's Bundy/Manson/Duncan level beyond evil. But if that's the case, you would think at her age, there would be a trail of dead people in her life.

Or... she didn't murder Kyron, but handed him off. You would think she'd still be at least a wee bit nervous or jittery or something about that.

But, BeanE, where has it eve been said that Kaine did not notice that anything was wrong? It may have taken hours or days, especially when her stories weren't adding up, but surely Kaine came to realize that something was off with Terri that afternoon.

Even if Kaine didn't notice, that still doesn't mean much. Your comparison to Bundy is a good one, I think, as they both appear to have most (if not all) of the traits of a psychopath. (Terry and Ted, I mean). One classic trait of a psychopath is a lack of nervousness and any signs of stress. Even when caught in the most horrendous of lies. They just don't feel these emotions and physical reactions; or if they do, they are not processed the way the average person processes these things. This type of personality has also been found to be poor at recognizing (or maybe just not caring about) the long-term consequences of their actions and their lies.

Most will continue to create stories to cover for new information that keeps exposing their untruths, but when they are finally backed into a corner, they just don't seem to care, and have no problem with the disparity between truth and deceit, and the fact that they have been caught in lies. It's really weird and horrifying ~in my opinion~ and doesn't make sense to those of us with true emotions; such as, remorse, guilt, love, compassion and empathy for our fellow man, and the desire to be good people.

People that murder are not necessarily serial murderers. As for this woman, it's pretty clear (based on legal documentation that has NOT been refuted by LE, the DA, the judge) that this woman did attempt to have her own husband murdered in the last 6-7 months.

My thoughts and opinions on this subject.

 

[liz b.]

I don't think it matters where she was or what she was doing if LE cannot prove she left the school with Kyron...unless his body turns out to be near a place her phone pinged.

Of course you're right ; if no one saw Kyron leaving with her, the rest of that morning is moot. And if there is even one person who says they either saw Kyron after she left, or saw her driving off alone, then that could explain why there has not been an arrest. I guess the answer could well be in the questionnaire results....

All JMO

 

[YellowSubmarine]

But the flimsy alibi hardly speaks to the premeditation theory, unless she is just one of those dumb criminals who do everything except one thing, like leave their glove behind...

If she had plotted and planned this with the so-called doctor appointment, the truck, etc. why would she not have had someplace she could have been for those 90 minutes? She could have driven to whereever she meant to leave Kyron and bought something nearby, to prove why she went there. Why leave a 90-minute gap of nothingness, if all so plotted?

I always thought something happened as a reult of an accident or a temper on Terri's part and this alibi makes me think so even more. She doesn't know what to say she what she was doing, as she did probably did drive around aimlessly if she had just killed and buried or dumped Kyron and then went to the gym to make her day seem more normal, to have another place on record. She probably even when to the store after killing him, if she did, to have some things on record. But she must not have been driving when and where she said she was if her phone records don't match.

It is a very dumb alibi for a calculating pre-planned crime.

And I still do not know what anyone means by "handing off." Who is out there with hands open to accept a 7-year old boy? To involve themselves in a felony? To do this for Terri? She did not seem to have access to large amounts of money and not too many tried and true criminals are going to take the kid and wait months, or years for the money until child is declared dead or Terri can get a settlement from the school. It might fit with this bizarre case, but I see it as wishful thinking.

BBM --

I'm thinking she didn't realize she need to come up with an exact time line of exact events. Didn't originally she just claim to have "run errands"? The "driving baby on rural roads" just recently came in -- after LE began researching her movements and after people claim they saw a white truck and red head on back roads.

The earrache thing - maybe she did want a reason to justify recently purchased meds or maybe they've never had to drive around the baby to simply "fall asleep" and knew Kaine would see right through that.