Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #4

[10ofRods]

I was put off reading the article due to its length but (I have the attention span of a goldfish) but I have read half of it now and it's horrifying. I urge others to persevere.

I'm reading in segments as it is definitely causing anxiety!

 

[iamshadow21]

I'm reading in segments as it is definitely causing anxiety!

Yeah, I could only manage it in short bursts.

 

[10ofRods]

Except before he took on the piloting job, he offered the job to the young woman who was their accountant, which scared her so much that she quit, because she knew with Lochridge gone, any illusion of safety was, too. Smart move.

MOO

Here's a quote:

“It freaked me out that he would want me to be head pilot, since my background is in accounting,” she told me. She added that several of the engineers were in their late teens and early twenties, and were at one point being paid fifteen dollars an hour.

Just as many of us expected.

"...freaked me out...because my background is in accounting" !!!!! She must feel she dodged a bullet.

Concealing all of this and using heavy-handed (yelling) techniques to make his staff shut up about problems. Great way to build an experimental submersible designed for 4000M below the sea.

JMO. SMH.

 

[Glimma0927]

Yes, and the reality being sadly the opposite way around - the more use the submersible got the closer the inevitable day of implosion was coming.

[snipped for focus]
I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around one thing...Rush had to know this--that repeated dives would be weakening the hull. Why would he put himself in harm's way in these later dives?

The New Yorker article partially shed light on this--it appeared that he was trying to recruit other people into being the sub's pilot. Maybe he was having trouble in later dives finding someone within Oceangate dumb enough to pilot for him.

<modsnip: not victim friendly>

 

[MsMarple]

It's being reported that the submersible dropped weights in order to resurface. The passengers knew something was wrong in their final moments.

A former OceanGate advisor said the Titanic submersible dropped its weights and may have tried to resurface before it imploded, possibly indicating those on board knew something had gone wrong

Rob McCallum said the Titan dropped its weights and was trying to ascend before it lost communication with its mother ship.

www.insider.com

I’m not so sure that’s what happened and I can’t see how anyone else can be sure either, expert or not.

IMO that report raises some questions. If both McCallum and Cameron actually spoke with someone on the support ship who told them Titan texted that the hull monitor had signaled trouble early enough to allow them to attempt to ascend then okay, that’s serious evidence.

But neither have clarified their source, they only say they received reports “from inside the community.” What does that mean? They’re talking to reporters but won’t name their source.

This centers around the hull monitoring system. Fired employee Lochridge claimed the system was flawed in that any warning of a breach in the hull would come only milliseconds before implosion. Rush said something different.

The system was what Rush used to defend his decision not to conduct proper testing and seek classing from an accredited organization.

So either McCallum and Cameron have solid information or else they believed Rush’s claims. Eventually we’ll probably see the texts from the dive and we’ll know for certain. IMO

 

[10ofRods]

All manned voyages set for 2018 in the newly renamed Titan were scuttled, due to issues with safety. The launch and recovery system could not be made to work at all that year.

So I count that as year 1 of the Titan (I think it was the yellow one). NO successful voyages, many attempts, all scraped due to safety issues. That is not a year without safety incidents.

For the next three years, OceanGate continued to sell tickets, but did not have one single voyage to the sea bottom near Titanic.

The sub was built and rebuilt during these three years. So it cannot be said that it was the "same sub" in each of its iterations - they were always changing, and therefore, testing, each new thing that Rush decided on (such as using friable carbon fiber - the same stuff that's causing injuries when carbon based bicycles explode in the Tour de France).

The patented monitors could only warn the pilot about 1 second or less before hull failure. Lochridge says "a millisecond" before and therefore, pointless.

In 2022, the Titan was heard "making noises" which Rush did admit were the carbon fiber segments. Then, it entirely stopped making noises. I guess Rush felt both of these states were fine. He said the sounds were of carbon fibers breaking, but decided to explain it with a bizarre "natural selection" model. Some of the fibers were weak, and were now weeded out. So hey, everything good again! He told people that carbon fibers regenerate.

They do not regenerate. They are not alive. All kinds of things might have caused this type of noise/not noise - but no scans were done of the hull (this is years after Lochridge left - and of course, no scan of the hull was done).

Instead of building a viable submersible, Rush seems to have spent a lot of his strategic thinking on how to evade regulations and operate as entire offshore (from any nation) as possible. Refused to even submit for licensing Titan as a submersible. Instead, had shell companies, etc. Sued Lochridge into withdrawing his whistleblower claim.

Sometime in either 2021 or 22, passengers spent 24 hours on the bottom of the ocean because it took that long for Rush to get the weights to dislodge so they could ascend. He assured them of a back-up system, but it's not clear there ever was one.

SMH.

 

[Sundog]

I’m not so sure that’s what happened and I can’t see how anyone else can be sure either, expert or not.

IMO that report raises some questions. If both McCallum and Cameron actually spoke with someone on the support ship who told them Titan texted that the hull monitor had signaled trouble early enough to allow them to attempt to ascend then okay, that’s serious evidence.

But neither have clarified their source, they only say they received reports “from inside the community.” What does that mean? They’re talking to reporters but won’t name their source.

This centers around the hull monitoring system. Fired employee Lochridge claimed the system was flawed in that any warning of a breach in the hull would come only milliseconds before implosion. Rush said something different.

The system was what Rush used to defend his decision not to conduct proper testing and seek classing from an accredited organization.

So either McCallum and Cameron have solid information or else they believed Rush’s claims. Eventually we’ll probably see the texts from the dive and we’ll know for certain. IMO

Hopefully we will know as a result of the investigation that is underway by the Canadians and the U.S. If McCallum and Cameron have any first-hand information to contribute, I hope they will contact the authorities and let them know.

 

[Charlot123]

I wonder if anyone has thought of the possibility that this was deliberate. Granted, there were flaws in this sub, but it has been working for years, without deaths.

Was this an accident waiting to happen? Or did someone see this situation as an opportunity to get away with the perfect crime, with all evidence of sabotage scattered in the ocean?

Maybe I have read too many books about mysteries and conspiracies.

Well, if deliberate, then, who profits?

Not Rush’s family, not Oceangate. Far from it.

Nargeolet? I think he was remarried, probably somewhat depressed but not squandering family money either, bringing artifacts from the Titanic.

Harding? I don’t know much about the family but I never read about them being on the ship, and as self-made rich man he was probably making a lot of money.

I really doubt it could be Dawood’s family, for many reasons.

The sub industry was not interested in Titan catastrophe because they all suffer now.

Someone in Oceangate who hated the boss? Possible, but until we hear about personal clashes, I’d discount it.

I thought, could it be suicide? Either P-H or RS himself? But - I think for P-H it was a Russian roulette, and RS was eager to amaze the world. So, unlikely. Not impossible though.

In general I think it is similar to Hanlon’s razor. Never explain by malice what could be easily explained by incompetence.

If I see anyone’s life dramatically improving after the catastrophe, then, yes. Not until then, though.

 

[flowershop]

Fantastic New Yorker article.

The Titan Submersible Was “An Accident Waiting to Happen”

Interviews and e-mails with expedition leaders and employees reveal how OceanGate ignored desperate warnings from inside and outside the company. “It’s a lemon,” one wrote.

www.newyorker.com

"That spring, more than three dozen industry experts sent a letter to OceanGate, expressing their 'unanimous concern' about its upcoming Titanic expedition—for which it had already sold places."

I would like to know if the OceanGate Board of Directors had knowledge of this letter or if this letter just remained with the execs. Would there have been anyway for it to reach the Board of Directors?

The article conveys the desperation felt by these experts! They really wanted to prevent this disaster from happening.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

OceanGate CEO used college interns to design sub’s electrical system: report

OceanGate CEO used college interns to design sub’s electrical system: report

College interns were hired by OceanGate founder and CEO Stockton Rush to design the electrical systems for the ill-fated Titan submersible – in which he was killed along with four other people, acc…

nypost.com

And now these poor innocents have got to live with guilt and shame for the rest of their lives.
More casualties of this reign of terror perpetrated by Stockton Rush IMO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It's being reported that the submersible dropped weights in order to resurface. The passengers knew something was wrong in their final moments.

A former OceanGate advisor said the Titanic submersible dropped its weights and may have tried to resurface before it imploded, possibly indicating those on board knew something had gone wrong

Rob McCallum said the Titan dropped its weights and was trying to ascend before it lost communication with its mother ship.

www.insider.com

Yes they must have known something was wrong as they had lost communication, dropped their weights, and according to some reports sent out a distress signal prior to the 'implosion' noise captured by naval deep sea monitoring equipment.

However, I can't imagine what could have 'slowly' happened as any fault that would bring about implosion would surely happen too quickly for anyone to take knowing action.

Is it possible there was some form of collision or snag? Or was it the 'creaking noises' that SR knew only too well meant the carbon fibre was about to give way - even so surely only a matter of a few seconds?

 

[fred&edna]

Well, if deliberate, then, who profits?

Not Rush’s family, not Oceangate. Far from it.

Nargeolet? I think he was remarried, probably somewhat depressed but not squandering family money either, bringing artifacts from the Titanic.

Harding? I don’t know much about the family but I never read about them being on the ship, and as self-made rich man he was probably making a lot of money.

I really doubt it could be Dawood’s family, for many reasons.

The sub industry was not interested in Titan catastrophe because they all suffer now.

Someone in Oceangate who hated the boss? Possible, but until we hear about personal clashes, I’d discount it.

I thought, could it be suicide? Either P-H or RS himself? But - I think for P-H it was a Russian roulette, and RS was eager to amaze the world. So, unlikely. Not impossible though.

In general I think it is similar to Hanlon’s razor. Never explain by malice what could be easily explained by incompetence.

If I see anyone’s life dramatically improving after the catastrophe, then, yes. Not until then, though.

I agree. I can't see anyone standing on the sidelines counting their profit from this disaster.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I agree. I can't see anyone standing on the sidelines counting their profit from this disaster.

The only person who would overtly financially benefit is the wife and mother of the two deceased. However, there is no suggestion this absolute unmitigated disaster waiting to happen was any more than a predictable tragedy and no suggestion that poor woman is anything but a grieving wife and mother.

 

[Puzzles8]

I wonder if anyone has thought of the possibility that this was deliberate. Granted, there were flaws in this sub, but it has been working for years, without deaths.

Was this an accident waiting to happen? Or did someone see this situation as an opportunity to get away with the perfect crime, with all evidence of sabotage scattered in the ocean?

Maybe I have read too many books about mysteries and conspiracies.

My own feeling, I don't think this was a deliberate act. There has nothing to point to that yet.

IMO, This was a act of arrogance, wantonly breaking scientific rules because SR felt he knew more than the people who were warning him about the design and it's potential failures.

JMO

 

[fred&edna]

Much of what SR said and did was known, even a lawsuit was easy to find. Not a great deal of research would have been needed to show additional risks (if the waiver itself, wasn't enough). If I could pay $200,000 (or more) to take a risk, I would assume I'd have enough to pay a legal team and investigator to help me make the decision to go (or stay). jmo

 

[Puzzles8]

Well, if deliberate, then, who profits?

Not Rush’s family, not Oceangate. Far from it.

Nargeolet? I think he was remarried, probably somewhat depressed but not squandering family money either, bringing artifacts from the Titanic.

Harding? I don’t know much about the family but I never read about them being on the ship, and as self-made rich man he was probably making a lot of money.

I really doubt it could be Dawood’s family, for many reasons.

The sub industry was not interested in Titan catastrophe because they all suffer now.

Someone in Oceangate who hated the boss? Possible, but until we hear about personal clashes, I’d discount it.

I thought, could it be suicide? Either P-H or RS himself? But - I think for P-H it was a Russian roulette, and RS was eager to amaze the world. So, unlikely. Not impossible though.

In general I think it is similar to Hanlon’s razor. Never explain by malice what could be easily explained by incompetence.

If I see anyone’s life dramatically improving after the catastrophe, then, yes. Not until then, though.

In the end, I agree no one or their families 'profited'.
IMO, everyone lost.

JMO

 

[Luna20]

How many times have you signed a waiver to do any activity? They all have such wording as "this activity may result in injury, death etc". I went on a short tourist boat ride recently (small vessel in a lake, driven by a professional at a very slow speed, not anything about to kill someone) and the waiver was 3 pages long with all sorts of warnings like that.

I think the people knew that Titan was a "research" vessel and not necessarily licensed and cleared for tourists, but I don't think any of them knew the extent to which SR had flouted scientific research and warnings to continue operating.

Waivers are common in saying that everything is ‘at your own risk’. I get that but for something of this nature ‘experimental’ combined with the location, sustainability and cost I would not sign off to a non licensed & certified waiver. No way!

Every day activities that have been in existence for decades like zip line, ski lift, or roller coaster are a bit different. Not a new invention, you are above ground and someone will know quickly that there has been an accident.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

My own feeling, I don't think this was a deliberate act. There has nothing to point to that yet.

IMO, This was a act of arrogance, wantonly breaking scientific rules because SR felt he knew more than the people who were warning him about the design and it's potential failures.

JMO

How on earth could anyone plan to attack the submersible? Nobody ever really knew when it was going to launch, it was persistently subject to delays and long extended waits followed by cancellations.

What format could this 'deliberate act' take?

If there were any tiny damage to any part of the hull before leaving, that would have caused implosion long before 1 hour 45 minutes submersion surely?

Nobody can have shot at or attacked them at the depth they were in. Why would anyone want to murder several innocent people even if they had it in for P-HN or SR?

 

[Arkay]

OceanGate CEO used college interns to design sub’s electrical system: report

OceanGate CEO used college interns to design sub’s electrical system: report

College interns were hired by OceanGate founder and CEO Stockton Rush to design the electrical systems for the ill-fated Titan submersible – in which he was killed along with four other people, acc…

nypost.com

So Rush falsely implied that NASA, Boeing etc. were involved with his submersible, but in point of fact he had:

1) college interns designing functions that were vital to survival

2) workers being paid at minimum wage

3) passengers being charged $250,000 each and christened “mission specialists” in order to be considered crew, not customers.

I agree that the presence of PH seemed to lend legitimacy to this whole ramshackle venture. IMO, as has been said, at 77 he was willing to roll the dice and figured if he died on the Titan, he was ready.

Hamish, who knows? He was definitely interested in all these extreme adventures, going to space etc., and maybe he didn’t do his due diligence on this company. Or maybe he did and felt he’d be fine.

The father and son strike me as just a very wealthy family with a father who was eager to indulge his son’s passion.

I wonder if they’ve recovered the Rubik’s Cube. It’s such a painful detail.

As to Rush…..maybe he believed his own myth. Maybe he thought the sub would break down but not yet. Maybe the ego and/or the greed overcame his common sense.


All JMO

 

[MsMarple]

"That spring, more than three dozen industry experts sent a letter to OceanGate, expressing their 'unanimous concern' about its upcoming Titanic expedition—for which it had already sold places."

I would like to know if the OceanGate Board of Directors had knowledge of this letter or if this letter just remained with the execs. Would there have been anyway for it to reach the Board of Directors?

The article conveys the desperation felt by these experts! They really wanted to prevent this disaster from happening.

That’s a great question! I had asked the same early on but the main website was already down. IIRC there were directors listed, including Rush’s own wife.

One associated site is still up - OceanGate Foundation:

OceanGate Foundation

www.oceangatefoundation.org

It lists an impressive group of experts. They probably didn’t have say in operations like the directors would but were they aware on some level what the rest of the submersibles community was saying about safety issues?

As for the directors and investors, did they all defer to Rush? Seems unlikely since they would want some say in how the company’s money was being spent, right? He may have pushed but the company was handling about 37 million in funds. Who would just sit back and let Rush spend at his own discretion with no need to answer at least his investors?

OceanGate received $450K in pandemic PPP loans to cover payroll costs

The company that operated the Titan submersible received $447,000 in government loans throughout the pandemic, according to federal loan tracker ProPublica.

nypost.com