Tough love or too far?

[katydid23]

Sometimes they are just lazy. My son had a very high IQ, yet he graduated High School barely. He is now in College and doing well but mainly because he is in competition with his girl friend.

Some kids are just lazy. Absolutely true. But the example you used, your son with the high IQ, may not compare to this situation. I do not think this is just an underachiever.

I think this kid might be lazy, but perhaps because he has given up because it seems to overwhelming or confusing. His Mom would not be able to help him if he needed it. Sounds more to me that he needs a good solid tutor than anything else. IMO

 

[kgeaux]

Some kids are just lazy. Absolutely true. But the example you used, your son with the high IQ, may not compare to this situation. I do not think this is just an underachiever.

I think this kid might be lazy, but perhaps because he has given up because it seems to overwhelming or confusing. His Mom would not be able to help him if he needed it. Sounds more to me that he needs a good solid tutor than anything else. IMO

A tutor is something I can 100% agree with! A very good friend of mine is a reading coach.....she has teens in her classes who have made it all the way to high school without being able to read! Some can read nominally, but CANNOT comprehend anything they've read!

I would love for this mom to contact the school to see about what academic help is available for her child.

 

[Quiche]

In fairness, Quiche, the mother admits her own education is lacking. She may not even know what study habits are necessary for academic success. She's just trying to make sure her son does better.

Personally, I think shaming her son on a street corner is the wrong approach; I hope the entire family gets the help they all need to see the younger generation improve. Your list above is a good place to start, IMO.

I don't want to sound mean spirited, but when it comes to your children you have a responsibility to learn what you may not know. It's a major part of the job. I think it would be great if she signed up to further her own education-- teaching by example is much more powerful than a stint on the corner. jmo

 

[LadyL]

WS is full of cases where parents shamed their kids.

It's emotional abuse and the streetcorner/public aspect of it turns it into psychological abuse IMO.

 

[Jaxson]

I completely agree that this woman should further her own education in order to help her son with his. I certainly had to. My math skills were horrible (in spite of the fact that I was an A student) but I had to 'bone up' when my children had honor classes in middle school in order to help them study. We all continue learning throughout our lives and if she has a 15 year old son her grammar should have improved during his previous years in school. The way things are taught in school now are very different than how I was taught and at a much younger age. In kindergarten I napped and finger painted, but my granddaughter is reading and writing.
I think she has waited way to late to instill the need for education.

And I agree with LadyL that what she is doing is emotional and mental abuse.

 

[Jaxson]

At least she is smart enough to know that her son needs an education.

But what about setting an example?

 

[katydid23]

A tutor is something I can 100% agree with! A very good friend of mine is a reading coach.....she has teens in her classes who have made it all the way to high school without being able to read! Some can read nominally, but CANNOT comprehend anything they've read!

I would love for this mom to contact the school to see about what academic help is available for her child.

I know several very intelligent kids who had trouble keeping up in school because they had reading comprehension problems. Kids don't read as much as we did when we were young. They get everything in bits and pieces off the net.

I don't think this kid has the learning skills he needs to get his grades in order. He will need help. But SHAMING him is not the answer. And I agree with others here, if he gets in a bad place, and losing his mind, his mother will be a target for the way she is treating him now. She should be trying to support and encourage him, not belittling him.

 

[keeponsearching]

Positive reinforcement is the best way.

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

Amen Quiche! The bedroom is for sleep, though my son does have a 13" that he will watch for a bit before going to sleep (and yes, he still has an 8:30 bedtime, as his wakeup time is 5:30). The x-box is in the living room, as is the computer. I don't always make breakfast, as most mornings it's a bagel or cereal. Dang, this child is hard to get going in the mornings (but really, how much earlier can he get to bed).

It's hard work -- but that's what I signed up for as a parent. I can't just throw it to the wayside. Only 4.5 more years until he's 18! That's nothing looking back at the last 13.5 years I just keep saying - "yes I can, yes I can, yes I can".

Hugs,

Mel

Just to encourage you...it doesn't stop when they reach 18. I said those same words years ago and have come to find out Mothering is Lifelong. The bright side of this..is after 18 they start maturing and you can start having normal conversations with them. Hang In There!

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

I can only imagine the atmosphere at home after the kid stands on the corner with his sign and then goes home to what? Shame is an awful feeling and once this kid gets home I just don't think his mind would be in the mindset of doing his homework after this. Poor kid, I bet he is teased unmercifully at school for this which only makes another barrier there. I think the Mom needs to re-think her discipline/encouragement methods.

 

[Daisyjane]

Emotional abuse, shaming etc destroys a child/teens self-esteem. Lack of self-esteem leads to everything from bullying and gang activity to sexual promiscuity and substance abuse.

The boy is 15, and he did not get to this 1.22 GPA overnight. Was he reading at grade level in 2nd & 3rd grade? How was his attendance record? Has he changed schools more than once or twice? Does he get adequate sleep, nutrition, exercise? Has he been tested for learning disabilities, vision and hearing probs?

Poor school performance is most often a SYMPTOM of problems in other areas.

 

[Nova]

Some kids are just lazy. Absolutely true. But the example you used, your son with the high IQ, may not compare to this situation. I do not think this is just an underachiever.

I think this kid might be lazy, but perhaps because he has given up because it seems to overwhelming or confusing. His Mom would not be able to help him if he needed it. Sounds more to me that he needs a good solid tutor than anything else. IMO

Kids with high IQs who don't perform aren't usually lazy, they are usually bored.

 

[Nancy2441]

I think to do well in school you have to be raised by parents that teach by example the rewards of hard work. The parents also have to value learning and education. I am in my 50's my mother really taught me from a young age to love reading. I think it's the most valuable gift she could have ever given me. It has lasted me my whole life. The shaming techniques used on this young man are not going to work and may in fact make the problem much worse. JMO.

 

[ziggy]

She might know what works best for her kiddo. All kids respond differently depending on their own psychology. Positive reinforcement does not always work. Some kids are self destructive and shame has been used as a way to get people to change their habits, thereby giving themselves a chance to be consistent and successful which leads to self esteem.

You can't have any self esteem if you have nothing to be proud of - you are merely ego and have delusions. That is WAY more dangerous than being ashamed a day or two.

 

[Nova]

She might know what works best for her kiddo. All kids respond differently depending on their own psychology. Positive reinforcement does not always work. Some kids are self destructive and shame has been used as a way to get people to change their habits, thereby giving themselves a chance to be consistent and successful which leads to self esteem.

You can't have any self esteem if you have nothing to be proud of - you are merely ego and have delusions. That is WAY more dangerous than being ashamed a day or two.

The psychologist B.F. Skinner, who taught the general public the terms "positive reinforcement" and "negative reinforcement," showed that while negative reinforcement may work more quickly in the short term, it is less effective in encouraging long-term behavior.

I think this mother wants long-term changes in study habits and academic performance. She isn't going to get that with negative reinforcement. In fact, as Skinner also showed, negative reinforcement can become an end in itself, if children learn that is the only form of attention they can get. (I'm not saying the latter is true in this case. Obviously, I don't know the family personally.)

That being said, as a former teacher, I completely agree with your last remark: self-esteem is acquired by setting challenging goals and achieving them, not just by being told you are wonderful.

 

[kgeaux]

Kids with high IQs who don't perform aren't usually lazy, they are usually bored.

Boy, that's the truth! I am reminded of my little neighbor who told me one day: "I used to be gifted. But now I'm not." When I questioned him about that, he finally admitted that he "drew pictures" while filling in the circles on the IQ test----something I did as a child! I'm sure my parents and teachers thought I was an imbecile!

I think to do well in school you have to be raised by parents that teach by example the rewards of hard work. The parents also have to value learning and education. I am in my 50's my mother really taught me from a young age to love reading. I think it's the most valuable gift she could have ever given me. It has lasted me my whole life. The shaming techniques used on this young man are not going to work and may in fact make the problem much worse. JMO.

A love of reading is the best gift a parent can give a child, IMO. I so wanted my children to love to read that I did not allow a television in my home during their childhood years! Just as my momma did not allow a television into my home while I was little.....I love to read, my children love to read; we are success stories. We did not have the distractions of x-box or nintendo or cartoons, so we immersed ourselves in good books and found a whole new universe to transverse!

In this young man's case, I truly believe his parents are trying to teach by example, maybe by negative example. They both seem to work hard, but know what the lack of education has cost them. If his parents are not strong readers, they may be relying on the school system to lead their son into a strong ability to read and comprehend---but schools let so many kids down.

I don't think the parents are going to see much good come out of the decision to publicly humiliate their son. But I do think they are trying their best with their limited experience base----and at least they aren't breaking the laws of the land!

The psychologist B.F. Skinner, who taught the general public the terms "positive reinforcement" and "negative reinforcement," showed that while negative reinforcement may work more quickly in the short term, it is less effective in encouraging long-term behavior.

I think this mother wants long-term changes in study habits and academic performance. She isn't going to get that with negative reinforcement. In fact, as Skinner also showed, negative reinforcement can become an end in itself, if children learn that is the only form of attention they can get. (I'm not saying the latter is true in this case. Obviously, I don't know the family personally.)

That being said, as a former teacher, I completely agree with your last remark: self-esteem is acquired by setting challenging goals and achieving them, not just by being told you are wonderful.

Nova, you are so often the word of wisdom! I totally agree with you, point after point after point!

 

[ziggy]

Well then - let's use negative reinforcement for a quick fix and then lots of positivie reinforcement so that Jr. has long term benefits.

At some point you have to sit on your kids and practically force them to achieve so that they will be good at something and feel better about themselves...I agree more with the Tiger Mom approach.

Plus B.F. Skinner is just one guy and his study is in averages and percentages that may not include this boy. I personally don't think modern psychology has helped our society parent effectively. It doesn't take a PhD to see that kids are way more disrespectful and lazy than they used to be. I can figure that out with only an LMNOP.

 

[peeples]

but schools let so many kids down.


Noo they don't. Parents do. I'm not a teacher, but I know a lot of them and they try their darned hardest. They are faced with some very impossible jobs with some kids because of their families.

No shows at conferences, promised class treats that never materialized on the day of the party, reading logs not turned in, parents not answer letters or phone calls etc.. And this is just 1 2nd grade classroom this year and applies to 5 out of 19 kids. and we live in a good neighborhood with mostly very involved parents. I shudder to think what it's like in not soo good neighborhoods with a lot of single parent or blended families.

Teachers do the best they can. Learning doesn't start and stop with a school bell it's up to the parents to give their children tools to be successful in school. Museum trips on the weekend, reading together at night, parents checking homework, parents showing up in support of their children.

 

[kgeaux]

but schools let so many kids down.


Noo they don't. Parents do. I'm not a teacher, but I know a lot of them and they try their darned hardest. They are faced with some very impossible jobs with some kids because of their families.

No shows at conferences, promised class treats that never materialized on the day of the party, reading logs not turned in, parents not answer letters or phone calls etc.. And this is just 1 2nd grade classroom this year and applies to 5 out of 19 kids. and we live in a good neighborhood with mostly very involved parents. I shudder to think what it's like in not soo good neighborhoods with a lot of single parent or blended families.

Teachers do the best they can. Learning doesn't start and stop with a school bell it's up to the parents to give their children tools to be successful in school. Museum trips on the weekend, reading together at night, parents checking homework, parents showing up in support of their children.

I think it is very true that some parents are not involved enough in their children's lives, and I have no doubt that even parents who are involved in other aspects of the child's life are more than happy to leave the education to the schools.

However, as the child and daughter-in-law of career teachers, and the friend of several current teachers, I can tell you that schools DO let children down. Teachers are instructed to teach to the "middle" of the class, which is fine and good for the average learners, but slow and boring for the bright children, and above the capabilities of the slower loaners.

Schools have become SO consumed with grades/progress that they must report on paper that my teacher friends have reported being instructed not to give any child less than a C for any reason. If the child scores lower than a C, a new test must be administered, and it must be designed so that the child is a "success."

Many new "educational programs" that are used in lower income areas are scripted so that the teacher has no lee-way in how to present the lesson, or even when to introduce which concepts. You must follow the script, and if any child doesn't grasp the lesson, Big Deal. They won't make less than a C anyway!

 

[Nova]

I'm just thinking about all the emphasis on parents' participation and responsibility regarding children and school work.

My parents had three children. We all were excellent students, graduated from college (though I took a few years off here and there), achieved success in professional careers, etc. My brother and I have several graduate degrees as well.

Yet I do not remember my parents EVER even asking if my homework was done or if I'd studied for a test. They looked at my report cards and were very disapproving of anything less than an A, but I can't honestly say they thought it was their job to be "involved" (except for chaperoning the occasional field trip).

By the same token, they wouldn't have dreamed of intervening if I had trouble with a class or a teacher. They thought learning to deal with others was part of the educational process. If I was punished at school (a rare event), that was my burden to bear.

I don't mean to make it sound as if they ignored me: what they were available for was to discuss anything I learned at school that I found interesting enough to mention. And they also discussed things they had read that interested them, so there was a constant reinforcement that reading and the life of the mind were important goals.

So I'm not sure the issue is whether parents are involved at school (though in severe cases, of course they must be), I think the more important issue is what sort of intellectual environment parents create at home.

(None of this is to blame the woman who is the subject of this thread. Obviously, she means well and I hope she gets the help she needs, rather than some stupid criminal punishment for an unfortunate parenting decision.)