trial day 44: the defense continues its case in chief #134

[IBsleuthin]

AND WHILE I'M WORKED UP....

(I have real life experience with this but will spare you all the nasty details)...

If an ex-boyfriend of mine lived in another state and then decided to MOVE into the neighborhood next to mine, then showed up at my house standing on the front lawn and looking in my windows????? THAT would be considered stalking behavior in my book.

It is.

For all we know...the 'on again off again' relationship that ALV is so quick to dismiss BECAUSE OF HER BIAS TOWARDS MEN.... is a reverse situation here where Travis DID feel threatened and manipulated into continuing the relationship. This very well likely in mhoo, could be a case where he felt compelled to continue the trists with Jodi in order to calm her down. He was looking for a way out and she wouldn't let him go.

In my humble armchair opinion the evidence I've heard so far points MORE towards that scenario than of JA being the victim.

If we simply step back and look at the evidence so far, I don't see him exhibiting a lot of the well known behaviors of an abusive ex-lover.

There is no evidence that he followed her when she moved. No evidence that he stalked her. No evidence that he showed up to HER house and stood on the front lawn, no evidence that he moved from another state to live near her neighborhood, No evidence that he RECORDED their intimate sexual conversations for playback at a later date.

No evidence.

 

[Kamille]

ALV is also WRONG about her characterization of what people do when they are stalked. According to her testimony today she said, people who are stalked take action. She said it to imply that ALL people who are stalked take action.

That is simply not true and the statistics about stalking bear that out. MANY people who are stalked are embarrassed by the situation and DO NOTHING about it. Often they don't tell anyone about it at all, maybe just a close friend.

Particularly when it comes to an ex lover. Often times as the stalking escalates the victim does reach out to the police and is told quite clearly, "There's nothing we can do until he/she does something then call us."

They are told to take out a restraining order which costs $250.00.

I got quite upset listening to this so called experts testimony today because it seems to me that she's willing to throw many of the well known facts about stalking right out the window in order to PROVE HER POINT.

And why would you take out a restraining order on someone who lived 1000 miles away? But Travis did tell someone about it. In fact I believe he told a few someone's about it. Like the poor girl who had her tires slashed. Not sure if she was the same one who he told it to in the IM chat. And he did tell the church elder if he didn't show up for dinner one Sunday that he was likely dead. I'd say he was talking to people about it in those final weeks/days. He just didn't take it seriously enough himself. That's of course assuming that he did let her in his house in the early morning hours of June 4th and spent the day sleeping with and having sex with her.

MOO

 

[IBsleuthin]

The cops still cannot do a lot in states, because the laws are still catching up. This was back in 2008. Laws were on the stalker's side.

http://www.esia.net/Forms_of_Stalking.htm Intimate Partner Stalkers

Once the relationship ends, this group of stalkers, fearing they will lose their identity and self-worth, often become desperate to re-establish the dominance and control they wielded during the relationship. If they find this isn't possible they can become suicidal, homicidal or both. Think about what mom and dad said in interviews. Travis probably called Jodi's mom.

And there it is. I know myself and some other posters on here were talking about this very thing about a week ago. I called it a broken identity.

Thank you for posting this.

 

[Sleuth5]

I am a court reporter, in all my years doing this job, I have never seen a lawyer who detests his client as much as Nuri has.

There is no letter writing between them., no talking, there is nothing. He makes himself so removed from her. If he could sit at the prosecution table he would be there.

That is really telling, he detests her as well.

:floorlaugh: Too true. He obviously wants to crawl somewhere and hide from her.

 

[gloomy]

I just love these photos of Travis.

http://www.hlntv.com/slideshow/2013/04/10/photos-travis-alexander-colorado-wilderness

Image credit - anon? I wonder who took them...

 

[Rocco]

:floorlaugh: Too true. He obviously wants to crawl somewhere and hide from her.

I'm trying to get a visual on that but it's not working for me.

 

[sammijo]

I guess we are. Sorry. Is there a separate jury charge for battered women? I think they'll get a 2nd degree and/or manslaughter charge.

Jumping off your post.

For any attorneys: does the basis for whether or not a judge gives the jury instructions to consider a "battered woman's mind-set" for a lesser charge, be based on whether or not she feels the defense has proven that in testimony? TIA!

 

[IBsleuthin]

And why would you take out a restraining order on someone who lived 1000 miles away? But Travis did tell someone about it. In fact I believe he told a few someone's about it. Like the poor girl who had her tires slashed. Not sure if she was the same one who he told it to in the IM chat. And he did tell the church elder if he didn't show up for dinner one Sunday that he was likely dead. I'd say he was talking to people about it in those final weeks/days. He just didn't take it seriously enough himself. That's of course assuming that he did let her in his house in the early morning hours of June 4th and spent the day sleeping with and having sex with her.

MOO

OK, this right here? This is key. I don't remember reading about that statement before.

If you follow crimes at all, think back to how many missing women have issued this same statement. Think~ Stacy Peterson for one.

(Think myself for two, I actually typed up a letter and left it in my fire safe that said, hey, if I'm missing you know who to look for and I'm probably out in the fire pit where he said he'd put me.)

This is a crucial piece of evidence and NO WHERE is there a statement like that from Jodi Arias is there?

 

[Aliz488]

Jodi reminds me so so so much of TED BUNDY. Anne Rule knew him once and she says if he were still alive and in prison he would have been finding ways to escape. Jodi is the same. Look at how many time she has been caught with unalloyed things in jail.

These are some of the ways she is similar:
- she stalks her victims.
-she likes driving distances to get her victim
-getting rid of evidence in ways they won't be found.
-she was using the photos as a suvineir.
-goes back to the scene of the crime, to relive it.
-liked the killing and would do it again if given the opportunity.
-seems normal and easily hides who she really is.

It bothers me if she gets out because she will do this agin. She is one scary person.

 

[BritsKate]

Even if I interject an abusive man sitting naked in the shower who was verbally abusive and had 2 previous physically abusive incidents I seriously cant believe that his first reaction to a dropped 1500 dollar camera would be a murderous rage, in a split second, and go after the "dropper..imo it would take a few seconds for him to realize what happened, then he would go to check out his camera to see if anything was broke (his rage is building) this would also take a little time, then the rage would build to murderous and he goes after her....there is absolutely no way for the rage to build to murderous and everything else that happened all in 62 seconds!

I dont have any first hand experiences with an abuser...oh wait under ALV definition ive been living with one happily for 33 years! SMH...anyway, does anyone on the board have some experience/knowledge to say my opinion may be off and the so called murderous rage could happen in an instant, camera forgotten and his mind only on murder!

I struggle with the term verbally abusive because it alludes to an abusive relationship being diminished to simple name calling and it is just so much more destructive and debilitating than that term conveys (I know that wasn't your implication at all) - just gotta get that out there. Psychologically (or emotionally) abusive relationships often have verbal abuse as a major theme, in addition to many other psychological manipulators and abusive tactics - physical and sexual abuse very often have elements of psychological abuse in addition to more overt acts like sexual coercion, battery, and rape.

Regardless of type and severity of abuse though an abusive personality, and an abusive relationship, almost always have certain markers. Abusers tend to be insanely possessive of what they deem to be theirs. So, theoretically, yes - someone who is actually abusive could snap on someone over something as insignificant as a camera in an instant...a rage attack by an abuser is absolutely terrifying to experience...

However, they'd be a whole lot more likely to snap and rage over their ruined BMW than a camera, while also wet and naked.

And congrats Raine on your 33 years of 'abuse' - may you have many, many more! :great:

 

[AuburnSchnauzer]

AND WHILE I'M WORKED UP....

(I have real life experience with this but will spare you all the nasty details)...

If an ex-boyfriend of mine lived in another state and then decided to MOVE into the neighborhood next to mine, then showed up at my house standing on the front lawn and looking in my windows????? THAT would be considered stalking behavior in my book.

It is.

For all we know...the 'on again off again' relationship that ALV is so quick to dismiss BECAUSE OF HER BIAS TOWARDS MEN.... is a reverse situation here where Travis DID feel threatened and manipulated into continuing the relationship. This very well likely in mhoo, could be a case where he felt compelled to continue the trists with Jodi in order to calm her down. He was looking for a way out and she wouldn't let him go.

In my humble armchair opinion the evidence I've heard so far points MORE towards that scenario than of JA being the victim.

If we simply step back and look at the evidence so far, I don't see him exhibiting a lot of the well known behaviors of an abusive ex-lover.

There is no evidence that he followed her when she moved. No evidence that he stalked her. No evidence that he showed up to HER house and stood on the front lawn, no evidence that he moved from another state to live near her neighborhood, No evidence that he RECORDED their intimate sexual conversations for playback at a later date.

No evidence.

I agree - There is zero evidence that Travis "stalked" JA - Unfortunately, all the evidence of JA stalking Travis is not allowed in court. I think in rebut, Juan will be able to prove that JA snooped into Travis's computer - Which I consider Stalking...

 

[kayice]

There sure seems to be A LOT of pictures of Travis or Travis and Jodi taken by Jodi. We are just starting to see some without her in the picture by other friends. Isn't it strange that other women weren't so obsessed to get Travis' image recorded so often?
Of course, hindsight...I'm sure were should be grateful in a weird way we do have pics.

Obsession.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

ALV is also WRONG about her characterization of what people do when they are stalked. According to her testimony today she said, people who are stalked take action. She said it to imply that ALL people who are stalked take action.

That is simply not true and the statistics about stalking bear that out. MANY people who are stalked are embarrassed by the situation and DO NOTHING about it. Often they don't tell anyone about it at all, maybe just a close friend.

Particularly when it comes to an ex lover. Often times as the stalking escalates the victim does reach out to the police and is told quite clearly, "There's nothing we can do until he/she does something then call us."

They are told to take out a restraining order which costs $250.00.

I got quite upset listening to this so called experts testimony today because it seems to me that she's willing to throw many of the well known facts about stalking right out the window in order to PROVE HER POINT.

Besides, so what if he didn't fit her definition of stalking, he was still abused by her own definition. She was just quibbling that he didn't stop contact (though he did attempt it, so she's wrong), which means he still fits an abuse victim, abuse by invasion of privacy and deceit and manipulation. She's a fraud.

And she doesn't care about truth. She kept going on about it's the context, it's all the information. But if the information is faulty, then your assessment will be faulty. She has no concept of scientific standards of investigation. She's winging it. She's an expert maybe on counseling, but she's not an expert on determining if someone is telling the truth about abuse. There is no research or paper she can point to that validates her approach as scientific. Blah!!!

 

[thefragile7393]

I am a court reporter, in all my years doing this job, I have never seen a lawyer who detests his client as much as Nuri has.

There is no letter writing between them., no talking, there is nothing. He makes himself so removed from her. If he could sit at the prosecution table he would be there.

That is really telling, he detests her as well.

I wander what JM and Det. Flores would do if he actually did that :therethere:

 

[Sleuth5]

AND WHILE I'M WORKED UP....

(I have real life experience with this but will spare you all the nasty details)...

If an ex-boyfriend of mine lived in another state and then decided to MOVE into the neighborhood next to mine, then showed up at my house standing on the front lawn and looking in my windows????? THAT would be considered stalking behavior in my book.

It is.

For all we know...the 'on again off again' relationship that ALV is so quick to dismiss BECAUSE OF HER BIAS TOWARDS MEN.... is a reverse situation here where Travis DID feel threatened and manipulated into continuing the relationship. This very well likely in mhoo, could be a case where he felt compelled to continue the trists with Jodi in order to calm her down. He was looking for a way out and she wouldn't let him go.

In my humble armchair opinion the evidence I've heard so far points MORE towards that scenario than of JA being the victim.

If we simply step back and look at the evidence so far, I don't see him exhibiting a lot of the well known behaviors of an abusive ex-lover.

There is no evidence that he followed her when she moved. No evidence that he stalked her. No evidence that he showed up to HER house and stood on the front lawn, no evidence that he moved from another state to live near her neighborhood, No evidence that he RECORDED their intimate sexual conversations for playback at a later date.

No evidence.

ITA. THis is all consistent with Jodi's projection. We can pretty much assume that if she attributes a behavior to Travis, we should assume it applies to something she actually did herself. Nancy Grace was beside herself tonight with complaining about her endless blaming of everyone ad everything -- but that's just how her various personality disorders manifest. If it's bad, it's someone else. That's her big weakness, because nobody's perfect -- and she can't understand that in her warped mind, so she can't project a believable facade to the jury. Instead, they see an obvious liar who isn't even convincing at this point.

:cow:

 

[IBsleuthin]

It seemed to me that after the first question---and then the immediate side bar---she shaped up for a few minutes. But then unfortunately, she fell back into her usual.....what should I call it...........let me think here now for the word I'm looking for............oh yes, I have it now............PATTERN.

:sweep: <----------looking for patterns in the carpeting. I SEE BLUE.

 

[thefragile7393]

:floorlaugh: Too true. He obviously wants to crawl somewhere and hide from her.

Wellll that would be too hard for him..he really is a pretty tall dude. Maybe just his own table with a chair suited just for him lol?

 

[wasnt_me]

When my DS was in college, he and his long time high school gf broke up, because they were going to different college towns. I was relieved because I thought she was kind of troubled, although she seemed sweet.

But they did the usual off and on type of thing for awhile, and when the whole thing began to unravel, she began to be kind of a 'stalker.' She would read through his FB and make comments on any other girls wall that he commented upon. She would message my DD and ask her weird questions about where her brother was and what he as up to. She even hacked into aol and changed his password so she could read his message hisory. When she was in town, she would drive past his best friends house at odd hours, to run into them there.

I was worried, and he even expressed some occasional concerns himself. And he would get angry and block her from his FB and his cell. HOWEVER, there was a part of his male ego that kind of enjoyed this 'stalker' behavior. They had been in love at one time, and he had been really hurt by her. So he was still under her spell in some ways. Even after a couple of VERY mean deceitful things that she did. I couldn't believe he would even speak another word to her after what she had done. For just one example, she lied to her parents about something that made my DS look really bad, to save her own arse. And my son
has plans to attend the police academy, and she knew this LIE could prevent him from attaining his life long dream. Even with actions like that, there were a few isolated occasions that she wormed her way back into his life. Usually whenever she found out he had a new gf.

So I totally understand how TA might have expressed concerns that she was a stalker, but might continue to communicate with her. Jodi is a pathological sociopath. She knows how to get under his skin.

Yes, and this is exactly what I'm talking about. ALV, for all her edumacation, needs to go back and get an education in 21st century stalking! Sorry to hear about that with your son and I hope he's finally free of that.

 

[RaineInMD]

I have a question that has been bothering me...the defense has referenced it quite a few times during the trial and it seems to be part of the reason why Jodi was so-called abused.

Their first sexual encounter, oral sex, was upsetting to Jodi because she felt it was too soon. Why is this used as part of her being abused? She never made it known to TA that she was uncomfortable/didnt want it and she never said NO! Fear of rejection is HER craziness not his. How was he to know she wasnt enjoying it fully if she never said no and she never said she was uncomfortable! Same with anal sex...I dont get where this is a serious issue with TA when it was never made known she had issues with it, and in fact quite the contrary, she acted like it was great. I feel like i am missing something here since so much time and energy has been spent fighting over this....what am I missing?

 

[IBsleuthin]

There sure seems to be A LOT of pictures of Travis or Travis and Jodi taken by Jodi. We are just starting to see some without her in the picture by other friends. Isn't it strange that other women weren't so obsessed to get Travis' image recorded so often?
Of course, hindsight...I'm sure were should be grateful in a weird way we do have pics.

Obsession.

We also have A LOT of photos of poor Travis with his throat slit, his body mangled, lying DEAD in a shower left there for days.

Not one photo of the bruises JA claims she had. Hmmmmm.... :banghead: