Trial day 53: REBUTTAL; #162

[LambChop]

Hi livelife, wondering if you could offer a bit of clarification please?

"...Travis was playing with fire and it should be a good lesson to treat people with respect.....not saying he deserved anything to happen to him, just saying..."

Thanks, in advance J

I agree, clarification is indeed needed. We do not know that he was playing with fire. Jodi kept coming around, didn't she. His text to her on 5/26/08 indicated she had done something to hurt him to the core to the point that he claimed he hated her. It had to have been something significant, something he was totally unprepared to handle. It's never a good lesson when someone ends up dead because even telling someone you hate them is no reason to kill them. We know Jodi crossed boundaries with Travis and that is disrespectful in and of itself. jmo

 

[Litigatrix]

I still am bothered by a couple things in this trial and how it was presented by the DT. First of all they totally tried to make it out like JA and Travis were love struck virginal teenagers and not the grown consensual adults that they really were. *snipped for space

I also hate it that just because Travis was a practicing Mormon that he was supposed to have some special Godly powers that made him not able to make a mistake, or sin, or have sex with someone. *snipped for space

This has driven me crazy as well...the fact that Jodi tries to appear as though she spent the entire time that she was dating Travis clutching her pearls over the "depraved" acts that he requested of her makes me physically ill.

This wasn't her first rodeo (obviously) and the fact that the DT tried to make it seem as though she underwent a re-virginization as a result of converting to Mormon-hood and then was led into the wicked wicked ways of TA who (*gasp) wasn't a virgin (heaven help us!) makes me want to retch. Oh and then that somehow not being 100% observant to every religious tenant and not telling everyone that he met that he wasn't (because I told all my good Baptist church members what I got up to every weekend..riiggghhtt) makes him abusive?? It smacks of desperation and is just absurd in my opinion....

I stand by my assertion that you never know what crazy you might be getting into bed with for that booty call, but the subtle (and often not at all subtle) implication that he brought this on himself because he OMG liked having sex with someone who obviously liked having sex with him is vile.

(Rant over!!)

 

[Emmi]

The qualifier "Not saying he deserved anything...." concerns me.

He attempted to handle it in better ways. She refused to let him go, and eventually, refused to let him live.

If he was treating JA poorly, she was an adult and had 100% power to walk away, not accept his calls, stop having sex with him and forget she ever knew him. She didn't. She drove 1000 miles to assassinate him. For that part alone, he is 100% innocent.

The qualifier "I'm not saying he deserved it or anything" concerns me, too. But for the opposite reason to yours, I think. I hear this qualification used again and again because the speaker is anticipating the wrong words being put into his/her mouth. It's a preemptive move, lest someone accuse them of excusing Jodi.

That Travis, like any homicide victim, didn't deserve to be murdered is a given. That he was "just a guy being a guy" is not. Some of us are not satisfied with the pass men are given to behave in ways that women would be condemned for. We think men can do better--much better--and that the world would be a better place if we stopped making excuses for them.

 

[tweezybird]

Could someone post the jurors questions, I missed that.
Thanks,
Terri
Also where can I find the shower pix with the date/time stamp. HLN and Huffingtons don't show the time.

 

[Wazzu]

Good point!
Do you guys think JUAN should've brought in another ME?

No, I think Juan's ME did just fine on his own. If the defense brought in an expert, Juan would've turned him into HIS witness anyway. lol

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I think Jodi pretended to be 'cool' with 'just sex' post relationship, but she clearly wanted a whole lot more. I agree, that Travis must have known that is what was going on.

I've known women who've put themselves forward as not looking for a relationship, only wanting casual lovers and not wanting to get tied down as a way of luring men in when it's CRYSTAL CLEAR by their actions from that point on that the opposite is what they want, and they think once they have their sexual hooks into a guy that somehow he'll suddenly want to commit to this girl that he was only attracted to because he was only thinking he could have a no strings sexual relationship with her.

Sound crazy much?

I think some women think that men only don't want to commit because they know SHE does so they think if they act like THEY don't want to, then the men will get all territorial and want to lock them in. Reverse psychology style.

That's what I think Jodi was doing with Travis during the post relationship sex phase of their relationship, Travis was used to decent women for the most part and didn't want to stop the sex even though he must have known.

 

[Chelly]

I believe she has to sit in a holding cell til the end of the day when all prisoners from court are shuttled back...sucks to be Jodi! :floorlaugh:

Does she get to lay down if she has a headache?

 

[LambChop]

Okay I'll bite.

Sure it's a great idea to treat people with respect. That would include not hacking into people's social media or their email or snooping on their phone. To do any of those it would be disrespectful and possibly criminal. It is also disrespectful to show up at somebody's house unannounced and gawk through their windows. It's very disrespectful to slash tires. I could go on but I do not want to aggravate my carpel tunnel.

I don't believe that Travis could have done much to change the outcome of his relationship with Jodi. Who knew she would go beyond slashing tires and murder him? Perhaps he could have kept a better record of the stalking and tire slashing incidents but hindsight is 20/20. Could he have broken up with her and ignored her and not given in to sexual urges....sure. Again, who knew that would eventually lead to murder and we do not know if he would have been murdered regardless. Besides, one could turn around and say that Jodi used Travis for sex.

Please explain the "better ways" Travis could have handled Jodi.

I think sometimes people feel just because Jodi was a woman she was being used for sex when it was Travis who lived in Mesa and it was Travis who did not travel hundreds of miles to just walk in on her.

 

[Litigatrix]

Hi livelife, wondering if you could offer a bit of clarification please?

"...Travis was playing with fire and it should be a good lesson to treat people with respect.....not saying he deserved anything to happen to him, just saying..."

Thanks, in advance J

She may have wandered off to avoid the onslaught but I see her point. She isn't saying that Travis deserved ANYTHING that happened to him. She isn't saying that he isn't a victim...she is saying that when sex is involved, feelings are involved and you never know what kind of crazy is attached to the person you are bedding down with.

I think it's a fair assertion and don't see why people are jumping down her throat. No one forced him to have sex with her and Travis doesn't have to have been a saint to have been a victim (which he uncategorically is), which is why the sex is wholly immaterial to this case.

If he had it to do over again, I am sure he would have run a mile in the other direction and would caution his mates who are spreading their oats to exercise caution.

 

[SweetT]

Okay I'll bite.

Sure it's a great idea to treat people with respect. That would include not hacking into people's social media or their email or snooping on their phone. To do any of those it would be disrespectful and possibly criminal. It is also disrespectful to show up at somebody's house unannounced and gawk through their windows. It's very disrespectful to slash tires. I could go on but I do not want to aggravate my carpel tunnel.

I don't believe that Travis could have done much to change the outcome of his relationship with Jodi. Who knew she would go beyond slashing tires and murder him? Perhaps he could have kept a better record of the stalking and tire slashing incidents but hindsight is 20/20. Could he have broken up with her and ignored her and not given in to sexual urges....sure. Again, who knew that would eventually lead to murder and we do not know if he would have been murdered regardless. Besides, one could turn around and say that Jodi used Travis for sex.

Please explain the "better ways" Travis could have handled Jodi.

Exactly and last I checked they were never married. To me being single means I can text, email, chat etc with whomever I please. If someone wants to have more control over me then they need to put the ring on the finger. If not then its a free world. Jodi went well beyond her boundaries with Travis. He did not know just what she was capable of and how far she would go I mean who could know?

 

[Sleuth5]

I still am bothered by a couple things in this trial and how it was presented by the DT. First of all they totally tried to make it out like JA and Travis were love struck virginal teenagers and not the grown consensual adults that they really were. Who in my opinion had a mutual sexual relationship that included talking dirty to each other. Not so abnormal there to me.
I also hate it that just because Travis was a practicing Mormon that he was supposed to have some special Godly powers that made him not able to make a mistake, or sin, or have sex with someone. It's not like he was some married television evangelist who slept around with hookers. I mean the DT makes it seem like if he ever had a red blooded manly moment that he was some how a terrible person, or if he ever had a natural reaction to something that would piss any normal person off that he was supposed to turn the other cheek and let it slide.
I'm sorry but this has bothered me through out the whole trial. I just hope that the people on the jury can see the truth and as I see it.
Travis was a good person, a red blooded American man with a bright future and a sense of humor and responsibility that others could take lessons from, but he was not a saint, nor did I expect him to be one. One thing for sure is he did not deserve to be killed, not by Jodi or anyone.
The mean, bad, sick person here is Jodi it's that simple.

A good post, and I agree with you. A lot of the sanctifying Travis was a media creation designed to stir up interest in the case. Some of it, in my view, came from well-meaning people who were outraged at what at happened to him -- and without meaning to do so, sort of de-humanized him by contrasting him as a paragon of sorts in comparison to Jodi. He couldn't win in either case, because no one is perfect on the one hand and he was, as you said, a consenting adult engaged in what I believe was entirely reasonable and consensual sexual behavior with a willing partner. It might have offended some people, but everyone has different standards regarding appropriate sexual expression.

The bottom line, is, of course, that Jodi did not have a right to kill him and has failed utterly to prove that she did have a reason to defend herself against him. In my mind, it does not diminish the man at all to admit that he was mortal and subject to some of the same vices and failings as every other mortal person. It does not make his death less tragic. I agree that it's past time to focus on the real issue.

 

[Nali87]

This has driven me crazy as well...the fact that Jodi tries to appear as though she spent the entire time that she was dating Travis clutching her pearls over the "depraved" acts that he requested of her makes me physically ill.

This wasn't her first rodeo (obviously) and the fact that the DT tried to make it seem as though she underwent a re-virginization as a result of converting to Mormon-hood and then was led into the wicked wicked ways of TA who (*gasp) wasn't a virgin (heaven help us!) makes me want to retch. Oh and then that somehow not being 100% observant to every religious tenant and not telling everyone that he met that he wasn't (because I told all my good Baptist church members what I got up to every weekend..riiggghhtt) makes him abusive?? It smacks of desperation and is just absurd in my opinion....

I stand by my assertion that you never know what crazy you might be getting into bed with for that booty call, but the subtle (and often not at all subtle) implication that he brought this on himself because he OMG liked having sex with someone who obviously liked having sex with him is vile.

(Rant over!!)

I agree. JM got JA to admit on the stand that she liked the sex. She might've had ulterior motives (winnning him back, collecting pictures for blackmail later, who knows) but I bet to him she appeared like a girl who like the sex and wanted to continue having a sexual relationship even after a romantic one had failed.

I read comments on twitter saying Travis USED Jodi for sex. Just because they weren't a couple when they were having sex doesn't mean he was using her: you can't use the willing.


MOO. (My own theory would be better lol)

 

[Tuba]

I've been unsuccessful finding a clear photo of the gunshot wound to Travis's forehead. Exhibit 175 et seq. would be helpful but only the courtroom & jury saw them. The images purporting to show the gunshot, circulating on the web, focus on the right ear not the wound.

 

[katiedid2]

Okay I'll bite.

Sure it's a great idea to treat people with respect. That would include not hacking into people's social media or their email or snooping on their phone. To do any of those it would be disrespectful and possibly criminal. It is also disrespectful to show up at somebody's house unannounced and gawk through their windows. It's very disrespectful to slash tires. I could go on but I do not want to aggravate my carpel tunnel.

I don't believe that Travis could have done much to change the outcome of his relationship with Jodi. Who knew she would go beyond slashing tires and murder him? Perhaps he could have kept a better record of the stalking and tire slashing incidents but hindsight is 20/20. Could he have broken up with her and ignored her and not given in to sexual urges....sure. Again, who knew that would eventually lead to murder and we do not know if he would have been murdered regardless. Besides, one could turn around and say that Jodi used Travis for sex.

Please explain the "better ways" Travis could have handled Jodi.

Mouse
I agree with you!
There was no better way for Travis to handle Jodie any different! He had never experienced anyone like her.
It's her way her manipulation, I believe he tried his best and thought her moving back to ca would put alot of distance between them. Tried to let her down gently!
It made it worse! Her stalking! Increased she began Hacking , snooping his fb and everything else. She was out of control because she was loosing control and it was making her worse. She didnt have Travis to control! Anymore so she began tormenting his siblings with her snarky smiles, smirks.
Wilmott could have tried to control her client but instead it seems the client controlled her.
How do you handle cray cray?

 

[Amster]

Does she get to lay down if she has a headache?

I hope not...

 

[Nali87]

She may have wandered off to avoid the onslaught but I see her point. She isn't saying that Travis deserved ANYTHING that happened to him. She isn't saying that he isn't a victim...she is saying that when sex is involved, feelings are involved and you never know what kind of crazy is attached to the person you are bedding down with.

I think it's a fair assertion and don't see why people are jumping down her throat. No one forced him to have sex with her and Travis doesn't have to have been a saint to have been a victim (which he uncategorically is), which is why the sex is wholly immaterial to this case.

If he had it to do over again, I am sure he would have run a mile in the other direction and would caution his mates who are spreading their oats to exercise caution.

No, I'm confused. I don't see how you figure out what she was talking about based on what she wrote or come to the conclusion above based on what she typed. She never even mentioned sex.

"After watching the dateline - along came jodi story I do feel that Travis was playing with fire and it should be a good lesson to all to treat people with respect. Not saying he deserved anything to happen to him, just saying that I think he could have handled his relationship with Jodi in "better" ways.... But what do I know.."


(Getting objective-data deja vu from D.D's testimony lol)

 

[jojomonkey]

I've been unsuccessful finding a clear photo of the gunshot wound to Travis's forehead. Exhibit 175 et seq. would be helpful but only the courtroom & jury saw them. The images purporting to show the gunshot, circulating on the web, focus on the right ear not the wound.

There was one I saw yesterday, and I wish I hadn't seen it. I'd have to scour the threads to find the link. It was a very awful picture that showed the bullet wound in his forehead. If I find it I will PM you.

 

[Ky1]

This is my first post but I have been a lurker for a long time. I have a few things to say, so please bear with me.
I am from Canada and we do not have the death penalty here. I agree with that 90% of the time, believing that putting them to death ends their punishment and suffering. LWOP would be fine with me because the public will get tired of talking and thinking about her and after a few years she will be forgotten and just waste away in jail until her death. She is so young this could take many years and from what I have seen, this will be truly a punishment for her. All she will have is other inmates to manipulate and maybe some guards, so who cares what happens to her in prison.

Another point is the way the defense is being talked about. We may not like them or the way they present themselves or how they look but really everyone is entitled to a defense. From what I understand they were given this client. I'm not sure what this is called in the U.S. but in Canada it is called Legal Aid for clients who cannot pay. I also think but not sure that K. Nurmi tried to quit this case at one time. I also think he does not like her and
cannot wait to see the last of her.

Thanks for listening and as always this is just my opinion.

 

[sammijo]

The qualifier "I'm not saying he deserved it or anything" concerns me, too. But for the opposite reason to yours, I think. I hear this qualification used again and again because the speaker is anticipating the wrong words being put into his/her mouth. It's a preemptive move, lest someone accuse them of excusing Jodi.

That Travis, like any homicide victim, didn't deserve to be murdered is a given. That he was "just a guy being a guy" is not. Some of us are not satisfied with the pass men are given to behave in ways that women would be condemned for. We think men can do better--much better--and that the world would be a better place if we stopped making excuses for them.

Respectfully disagree.

Jodi treated him very badly. And then she brutally slaughtered him.

Was Jodi just "a girl being a girl" when she made Travis feel like a "dildo with a heartbeat"?

I think human beings in general can do much better towards each other. That being said, I don't "blame" other people for how I feel or the choices I make each day. Jodi blames everyone else for everything that happens to her and every bad choice she makes.

This argument really infuriates me. Makes me think of LaViolette.

JMHOO.

 

[Litigatrix]

A good post, and I agree with you. A lot of the sanctifying Travis was a media creation designed to stir up interest in the case. Some of it, in my view, came from well-meaning people who were outraged at what at happened to him -- and without meaning to do so, sort of de-humanized him by contrasting him as a paragon of sorts in comparison to Jodi. He couldn't win in either case, because no one is perfect on the one hand and he was, as you said, a consenting adult engaged in what I believe was entirely reasonable and consensual sexual behavior with a willing partner. It might have offended some people, but everyone has different standards regarding appropriate sexual expression.

The bottom line, is, of course, that Jodi did not have a right to kill him and has failed utterly to prove that she did have a reason to defend herself against him. In my mind, it does not diminish the man at all to admit that he was mortal and subject to some of the same vices and failings as every other mortal person. It does not make his death less tragic. I agree that it's past time to focus on the real issue.

Tremendous post!!