Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

[Nymeria]

Can anyone tell me what time does court start tonight(tomorrow)?

TIA!

 

[gajonka]

I thought I should just mention the possibility.....

If the witness is searching for his notes on an ipad, and they seem to have disappeared, there's a good possibility they are gone forever, unless he uploaded them to icloud or somewhere. There is a bug that Apple have chosen not to rectify, so far. This I know to my cost.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5369826?tstart=0

>>>>>> forgive me if I missed it--

With the door representing a key element, has the information been released which confirms, either:

1\a) A downward ,flat trajectory, which would confirm Oscar had his feet on. Aiding the prosection's case.

2/)b. An upward, positive neutral trajectory, disparate from the latter represented under 1a, which would confiurm he was on his Stumps (awk). Aiding the defense... making Oscars story click...

Do we know/?
Thanks for your help...
I wonder, if we don't , how big of an event it will be - "bring in the door!" "secure the door!"

Your admirer,

The G

 

[gajonka]

Can anyone tell me what time does court start tonight(tomorrow)?

TIA!

Hi, Thursday morning, 2pm EST. Nice and early

 

[gajonka]

Then we have the mobile units.

Both found in the loo.

Was Reeva looking at them, most likely is that Oscar noticed Reeva had been texting a third party ( it is Valentines day, a time to uncover true love, is it there...) remember, Reeva met he ex for "coffee" the day prior, Oscar called her - TWICE!!!

So we have , clearly, have OBSESSION, by Calvin Klein.
Hypothetical:

When man finds out girl flirting with others near this special day of love... he flares.... bringing out his weapon of choice, his manhood.

 

[Nymeria]

:tyou: Gajonka!

Like your "joker" style av and motifs (I notice the purple and green font colors!).
I have used Heaths Joker as an avatar many times myself....

 

[sorrell skye]

RE: Possible (partial) scream and the speed of sound.
Matters of Physics and Medicine

Regarding this matter, we have had attorneys (and others) claim it was “impossible” for any utterance to be heard from Reeva (allegedly) after the 4th shot. A brilliant, and stalwart witness, despite hours of badgering, would not alter her testimony. She is right to do so, IMO.

First some physics. Most modern guns have the bullet being fired off at supersonic speed. Some guns/bullets can be fired off at several times the speed of sound. I do not know the (muzzle) velocity of the bullets in this matter, but they almost certainly left the gun at supersonic speed, and as I already have described, their wave packets included sonic booms (which would almost never be confused with cricket bat bashing of a door).

Because of the supersonic nature of the bullets’ sound wave patterns, (and depending on distance and numerous other parameters), it is possible that Reeva could have been in the process of her last scream say, when the 4th shot was fired. And a listener at some distance—more likely the greater the distance!—could actually hear the 4th shot slightly before hearing the final (diminished) scream (because the scream travels at no more than the speed of sound). Dr. Burger said it could have been as little as ½ second between her hearing the 4th shot and Reeva’s last utterance. (Hearing more than 4 shots [Mr. Johnson] is also easily explained by wave superposition physics—more commonly known as echoes—again more likely to occur at greater distances, because the brain is able to distinguish the wave packets (echoes) given enough temporal spacing.

Physics often appears not to jibe with “common sense,” unless a person knows the physics. But in physics, there is also the well-known phrase, “the Universe is not limited to anyone’s limited ability to understand it.” This includes attorneys (and everyone else), despite any declarations of what they, or anyone, claims is “impossible.”

Now for some medicine-related matters. And given the above, this part may not even be necessary.

But I include it for completeness. Roux (as with the above matter) likes to insist on what is impossible. There is the issue of what Reeva could have uttered regarding the head shot. If she was already in the process of screaming that final scream, nerve impulses—already on their way— to her vocal cords and diaphragm say, could have allowed a brief truncated scream—which again jibes well with Dr. Burger’s testimony.

Again this too may seem not to make common sense, but is born out by both the physics of the nerve signals already underway, and perhaps by actual other cases. The tragic tale of George Zimmerman shooting Trayvon Martin includes the following. Despite being fatally shot in the lung and heart, Martin (allegedly) got off a complete sentence after being shot. “Okay, you got it,” Now obviously being fatally shot in the brain is not the same as being fatally shot in the lung and heart. But I have already noted the conjunction of the physics and medicine above when I cited nerve signals could already have left the brain just before it was impacted.

So to sum up, nothing in Dr. Burger’s testimony is “impossible.” Rather the opposite—it appears to incorporate the actual laws of physics. Of course, this is somewhat of a general discussion, because (as noted above) the specific muzzle velocity, and other parameters, are not known to me. Dr. Burger’s testimony is to me highly credible, as is her stalwart nature to her truth and what she heard. Now (hopefully) amply explained in detail. ©Shane13

Excellent analysis and explanation here Shane!

When Ms. Burger & Mr. Johnson testified to hearing a fading scream during & shortly after the 4th gunshot, and when Roux insisted that would be impossible because the 4th gunshot struck her in the head, I began to doubt what the witnesses said they heard.

You & Interested Bystander have both provided illuminating information, based on scientific fact, that has dispelled that doubt.

Since the explosive sound of a firearm discharging travels at a faster rate of speed than a human voice, I believe it's entirely plausible Ms. Burger & her husband could have heard a scream a fleeting moment after they heard the last gunshot.

Regarding the physiology portion of your post: nerve impulses travel at varying rates of speed. I think it's possible that nerve impulses traveling to the larynx and to the diaphragm (for the purpose of producing a scream at the moment the 4th bullet struck) could have produced a sound, but I think the sound would have been very weak due to the lack of continued nerve innervation. I don't think it would have risen to the level of an audible scream that could have been heard at a distance of 177 meters.

I think it's totally plausible, though, for Ms. Burger & Mr. Johnson to have heard a fading scream a millisecond after they heard the last gunshot, due to the other reasons you outlined.

 

[Trooper]

He also said the original notes are on his laptop so surely he will be able to produce them. If he can't, that's a problem that reflects badly on his credibility. We'll find out tomorrow.

I would think it would reflect badly on the laptop system... after all , Charl was not instructed to keep his notes, merely to make them for his own reference.... that Roux now wants them is immaterial and irrelevant to Charls credibility.. either they are on the laptop still or they are not, Charl expects them to be there, but that's no guarantee.. doesn't reflect badly on his credibility, it reflects his misplaced hope in technology and nothing more.

 

[shane13]

For the record:

Pistorius could still be innocent—at least of PM charge.

Nothing in his Bail Affidavit violates the laws of physics per se.
We will have to wait till all the evidence has been presented.

OTOH, I hope that the ruling will be impartial, but based on many things and like many people, I would not bet on impartiality.

And I see—at a deep level—what may be going on here, or happen at the conclusion of the trial. (But hopefully not.)

The badgering, and all other antics by Roux—including proclaiming things are “impossible” that I showed in my Post 199 are not—allows the perception that Dr. Burger, and maybe others to come, are biased, or whatever, some may try to claim. This they can then use, if so desired later, to justify ignoring whatever evidence and other testimony will be presented.

I found whatever trivia about her testimony that was not saintly perfect (under so many hours of badgering and indeed outright lies and distortions in questions from Roux), to be very minor in re the matter at hand. And my analysis of the physics and physiology of what she earwitnessed to jibe well with the actual physics and physiology of the shooting. And she therefore was right not to waver. But alas, the judge and assessors can rule however they wish.

 

[Trooper]

I think what Roux , under instructions from his Client, is proposing, is the scenario where Oscar is simultaneously whacking at the toilet door AND firing off 4 shots with impeccable synchronicity, one implement in each hand, both firing AND chopping at the exact same moment, therefore the sound is not able to be perceived as either bat or gun.

Because.... if a gun didn't wake folks up, a cricket bat sure wouldn't. To only have 4 loud bangs, it has to be this way.. if he fired off 4 rounds, which we know he did, and slammed the bat into the door 4 times, which we don't know he did, that's 8 loud sounds..to have the bat sounds mistaken for gunfire, it can only be 4 times the bat was wielded , Roux and his client want this anomaly to be resolved as a mistake on the part of the ear witnesses.

As well as holding a cricket bat in one hand and swinging it with all force against a static flat faced object, ( door) he has, in the other hand the gun which he is firing off at exactly the same time as the bat hits the door, ( it has to be synchronized perfectly ) and screaming in a high pitched voice, on prosthetic legs, up against a fearsome intruder behind a locked door.

even my little dog is barking with disbelief at this scenario

 

[shane13]

Nomvula Mokonyane [Gauteng Premier] chooses sides at Oscar trial

"Gauteng Premier Nomvula Mokonyane has told family of Reeva Steenkamp at the Oscar Pistorius murder trial that “even real South African men are ashamed”.

Mokonyane was today unapologetic about sitting with Reeva’s cousin Kim in the row reserved for family members at the Pistorius murder trial in the North Gauteng High Court.

She told journalists outside court that “solidarity with victims has always been our responsibility”.

“Every child is my child and (Reeva) is my child … so we will be on the side of Reeva’s mother,” said Mokonyane.

The premier could be heard making disapproving comments at certain points of the cross-examination by Pistorius’ lawyer, Barry Roux.

During a break in proceedings, when Oscar approached the family bench to speak to his sister, Aimee, Mokonyane stared at Pistorius, narrowing her eyes..."
BBM

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/nomvula-mokonyane-chooses-sides-oscar-trial/

 

[lisasalinger]

I don't see that anybody is discussing this just yet, so I wanted to get your take on the exchange between Roux and Johnson today detailing the times of the phone calls.

Charl Johnson calls security from his wife's cell phone at 3:16am. The call lasts for 58 seconds.

After, he throws the phone down and goes back to the balcony (probably takes several seconds), he hears the screams again and then the gunshots. So lets just estimate that perhaps some time around 3:17:30am is when the shots take place.

Oscar's call to Stander (security) was placed at 3:19:50. (I believe I heard 50seconds but he could have said 15 seconds, correct me if I'm wrong).

So there was a very short time frame, about 2 minutes between when the shots went off and when Stander was called.

According to Oscar's bail affidavit, the following occurred after the shots:

• He ran to the bedroom & realized Reeva was not in bed (still on stumps).
• He returned to the bathroom but the toilet door was locked (still on stumps).
• He went back to the bedroom, opened the balcony door, exited and yelled for help (still on stumps).
• Now he put on his prosthetic legs.
• He ran back to the bathroom tried to kick the door open which didn't work.
• So he ran back to the bedroom to grab his cricket bat.
• Then he ran back to the bathroom and bashed the door in.
• He then found the bathroom key on the floor, unlocked the door and pulled Reeva out to the bathroom.
• HE THEN PHONED STANDER.

After that call is when he went downstairs to open the front door. Then he went back upstairs to get Reeva and carried her down the stairs. On his way down the stairs, Stander arrived as well as a doctor who lived in the neighborhood. Seems like they would have gotten there pretty darn quick.

Something is wrong here. There is no way in the world he could have done all of that in less than 2 minutes before calling Stander, especially since part of it was without his legs.

So it begs the question... at what point in the event did he actually call Stander? Was if pretty much right after the shots? Did he do all the running around and bashing in with the cricket bat after calling Stander?

I think this is a very crucial part in the story to figure out.

I've been running this through my mind all day.

Let's go with what Roux is telling us. Let's say that Burger & Johnson did actually hear the cricket bat hitting the door (not gunshots). That would mean that there was very loud distressed screaming that sounded like a woman on and off somewhat consistently for two minutes prior to the banging.

In Oscar's statement, he says that after the shots he yelled to Reeva to call the police. And he also says that he went out to the balcony and yelled for help from there too. But that is all that he mentions about yelling.

He went back inside afterwards. He was supposedly running back and forth from room to room before he bashed the door in. He did not say that he was screaming at the top of his lungs during this time, so much so that he sounded like a woman. He also did not say that he was screaming his head off right before and during the bashing of the door. Remember, the screams were heard immediately before and during the banging sounds. It still doesn't totally fit with what Roux is saying.

What do you guys think? Am I looking at this right?

 

[sorrell skye]

I've been running this through my mind all day.

Let's go with what Roux is telling us. Let's say that Burger & Johnson did actually hear the cricket bat hitting the door (not gunshots). That would mean that there was very loud distressed screaming that sounded like a woman on and off somewhat consistently for two minutes prior to the banging.

In Oscar's statement, he says that after the shots he yelled to Reeva to call the police. And he also says that he went out to the balcony and yelled for help from there too. But that is all that he mentions about yelling.

He went back inside afterwards. He was supposedly running back and forth from room to room before he bashed the door in. He did not say that he was screaming at the top of his lungs during this time, so much so that he sounded like a woman. He also did not say that he was screaming his head off right before and during the bashing of the door. Remember, the screams were heard immediately before and during the banging sounds. It still doesn't totally fit with what Roux is saying.

What do you guys think? Am I looking at this right?

You're right - OP didn't mention in his bail hearing affidavit or the trial statement that he screamed & wailed after he allegedly realized he'd shot Reeva by mistake.

I've thought about it, as well, over the course of these past few days and have tried to ascertain if someone would include that detail in a statement.

I suppose some folks might and others might not, depending on whether or not they considered it a relevant detail to include. JMO

 

[Madeleine74]

Working backwards from what we know.

We know Reeva was struck 3 times with 3 out of the 4 bullets. So Reeva couldn't be screaming after the fatal shot.

So why was Reeva screaming before she was shot?

Possibilities:

- She was being threatened by OP, either with the cricket bat or the gun and this was before she made her way into the toilet room;
- She was angry and her screams were to get his attention? (that doesn't seem right since there was a blood-curdling quality to them);
- OP was swinging the bat to make his point, maybe swinging at the bathroom door before shooting, which was scaring Reeva;
- Some other scenario?

In each scenario that I can think of, OP is interacting with Reeva, he is aware of her presence and where she is, there is anger or an escalation of behaviors. Maybe not premeditated in her killing, but certainly an escalating situation in which anger increases to rage and increases to a fatal outcome.

A screaming woman would be loud. OP may have shot her to shut her up and because he was in a rage. Clearly the guy likes his guns and finds any reason to fire a weapon. Hair trigger temper combined with hair trigger ummm trigger finger has deadly consequences.

I really do not think there was any reasonable way he could say there might have been an intruder. It doesn't match the scene and he's changed his story.

 

[sorrell skye]

I had a convo with a friend earlier today about this case. My friend wondered if the bullet that missed (the one later found in the toilet bowl) may have been the first shot that OP fired. Hence the escalation in the screaming that was described by Burger.

In a rage-killing scenario, if Reeva fled to the toilet room in fear of OP after an hour long argument, locked herself in, and then was shot at, but the bullet missed, it makes sense that her terrified screaming would escalate. She was in absolute fear for her life.

 

[lisasalinger]

In the two or so minutes in between the gunshots and when Stander was called, I don't think Oscar was running back & forth. I think he knew exactly what he did and who he shot.

It certainly is possible that he felt extreme remorse immediately after, and may have been upset and crying. Of course, we have no clue what he felt that night.

But my point is that I don't believe he had to do all that running back & forth from room to room to try to figure out what happened and running out to the balcony, etc. I think after the shots, he bashed in the panel of the door, dragged her out of there and called security.

That is far more feasible to me in 2 minutes than all of that other nonsense he says he did.

This would fit Burger's & Johnson's accounts of the screams, and then the gunshots, and then the silence.

IMO

 

[lisasalinger]

Some more thinking out loud...

Kevin Lerena testified today that Oscar was very sincerely apologetic about accidentally shooting off the gun in the restaurant. According to Kevin, it really seemed to startle Oscar that this had happened.

So in light of that incident just happening a month before, I would think he'd be extra cautious about waving around loaded guns. Surely he wouldn't pull one out unless he meant to use it. Catch my thinking here...

Did he mean it for the intruder or did he mean it for Reeva? That is the question at hand. But I think it probably wasn't just haphazard shooting through a door. He shot with intent. Not speaking fact, again just thinking out loud.

IMO

 

[Really?]

I hear a striking similarity between the way Roux asks his questions of the witnesses. LOL


Hello everybody

 

[Trooper]

If the theory that I've seen floated here at times is that Mrs Burger and the Mister collaborated.. indeed , embellished and created a testimony, one then has to ask, to what agenda??

I discount racialism.... Oscar and Reeva and Mrs Mr Burger/Johnson are all of Afrikaans heritage..well...you could ask, how do I know the first 2 witnesses are?? because their testimony was begun in Afrikaans.. this is the language of the Dutch settlers.. its not applicable to any other group , ethnically or racially, except as a chosen 2nd language..

Money??........ from whom?? Oscar is the one with the disposable income here.

Gender?? ....... Ms Burger would relate to Reeva , so why doesn't the husband relate to poor Oscar?

Religion??.......... Generally, and statistically, all four, Oscar, Reeva, the Mr and Mrs Burger would be of the same Dutch Reformed congregation.

Sex??.... no mention by Oscar of having Ms Burger put the hard word on him and him rejecting her, and her seeking revenge for it.

Clout??..... There is nothing to be gained by the Burgers for maliciously collaborating.. and one doesn't collaborate without malice..its inherent in the meaning of the word, so what Clout, political, social, financial, would they gain from it? Oscar's trouble is a great grief to many many South African people.. it cannot be claimed its a social improvement to be a prosecutors witness, on many levels in this case..

 

[Really?]

oh please don't come back to it Roux.......this is tedious. :scared:

 

[Trooper]

This is such a Pretoria story... very much like Hansie Cronje 's story was pure Bloomfontein... it just wouldn't have the same effect anywhere else, or have the components, the ingredients, the parts , the accessories, that this crime has in Pretoria... there is a good reason why Oscar lives in Pretoria... part of his tragedy and certainly Reeva's tragedy is inherently embedded in Pretoria like no where else in South Africa.. its a story that would be quite different in Capetown or Durban .

For the Americans.. its a story that could only happen in Memphis..