Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19, Day 13

[steveml]

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page: When medical people refer to the right side or the left side of a patient, this is from the perspective of the patient himself.

So when placing Reeva in the toilet, keep in mind the right hip injury was HER right side.
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I am a bit surprised there were NO footprints what with all that blood inside that toilet room. So does that mean he did not get next to her body in there and attempt to lift her, but rather he what? Dragged her out by her legs?

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Re: Blood spatter on wall above headboard. I'm pretty sure Prosecution has no general obligation, unless asked by Defense, to explain what they did NOT find, only what they did find that is relevant. Otherwise, it could take days to say what all was not found. Maybe Roux will want to explain whose blood it is and why it is there?

I don't know the rules of court on what all Prosecution is allowed to submit into evidence. They also submitted the photos of the bedroom door with the holes and the damaged bottom panel but have made no further explanation for that.

If the blood marks on the duvet and the facing wall were relevant I'd want my prosecution expert in there like a shot. This surprises me somewhat, as it looked at one point as though Nel was painting a picture of a struggle between OP and Reeva in the bedroom, prior to the bathroom shooting. I'd presumed that this was to be a major part of the prosecution theory. Perhaps not?

 

[foxbluff]

I would really like someone to give some sort of explanation about the jeans - I don't care if the explanation comes from the prosecution or the defense, but it's just not right to throw that out there and leave it all to our active imaginations to speculate over it

I totally agree!

BTW, am I the only one who thinks these jeans haven't been worn since being washed?

 

[minor4th]

I totally agree!

BTW, am I the only one who thinks these jeans haven't been worn since being washed?

If I had to guess, I would agree - they have that "stiff" look like they were air dried and have not been touched since.

 

[james83]

I can't help but think that there just has to be more to this Ipad stuff, it made no sense for the prosecution to call up that witness for him to say nothing strange here.
He would have made a great defence witness.
Can someone help clear something up, do you have to delete all history or can you just choose certain parts?, could after 9.19pm have been deleted but before it left?.
Is it possible that sales can't find deleted history but someone else can?.
Just seems a very odd witness to call up.

 

[Cher352]

Re: the jeans
They look feminine. Could they have been hung somewhere or laid out over the rail of a balcony to dry in the sun after something was perhaps spilled on them? Is there any balcony above them anywhere that they could have fallen from?

I thought the same thing. I do that quite often and several times have had them blow or fall off.

 

[nastasya]

Hypothetical Testimony and Cross Examination of OP:

R: Tell us what happened, Mr. Pistorius.

OP: "I tried to kill somebody in my toilet but I swear I didn't know it was Reeva. Honest.

R: "Your witness."


N: Tell us what happened again?

OP: "I wasn't trying to kill Reeva. I was trying to kill somebody else."


N: Who?

OP: "Whoever was in the toilet."


N: Why?

OP: "I heard them inside the toilet."


N: Why were you trying to kill them?

OP: "Because I thought I heard the bathroom window open."


N: What about 4 witnesses that heard a woman screaming?

OP: "That was me. I screamed like a terrified woman after I shot Reeva."''


N: But you didn't know you shot Reeva when you claimed to scream like a woman. She was still behind the locked toilet door.

OP: "I suddenly was able to see in the dark bedroom that she wasn't in bed. Then it dawned on me that it had to be Reeva who got up to pee when I was getting the fans and that it couldn't have been an intruder in the toilet. It's amazing how much clarity I had 10 seconds after firing four shots through the toilet door and killing somebody."


N: What about witnesses who heard an argument, and both a woman scream and man scream?

OP: "That's impossible. They couldn't have heard that because Reeva never screamed."


N: What about the witnesses who heard a woman screaming and gunshots?

OP: "That's impossible. Nobody could have heard anything to do with the actual killing! All they heard were the noises I made by myself after I killed Reeva. It wasn't the gunshots people heard. It was the cricket bat. It wasn't Reeva screaming because she was about to be gunned down. It was me screaming and my voice coincidentally sounded like a woman about to be gunned down."


N: So a woman getting up in the middle of the night to pee caused you to get your gun, charge into the bathroom, shoot four times through the toilet door, then run to your balcony and scream like a terrified woman?

OP: "Yes. And she opened the bathroom window. Don't forget that!"


N: Have you never slept with somebody who got up in the middle of the night to pee?

OP: "Yes, but this is a gated community in Pretoria! It's dangerous here! I bet men shoot their wives who get up to pee in the middle of the night all the time here!"


N: Anything else, Mr. Pistorius?

OP: "Oh yeah, I almost forgot. I have no legs. I feel very vulnerable when I'm running around on my stumps and all I have is a 9 mm Taurus Parabellum loaded up with Black Talons. You do realize I never did the assault rifle I ordered, right?"


N: Is that your best explanation, Mr. Pistorius?

OP: "Yes. Isn't that enough? I can't believe you had the audacity to think I did anything wrong! Do I get to go home now?"


This really isn't that complicated of a case, is it?

 

[steveml]

I can't help but think that there just has to be more to this Ipad stuff, it made no sense for the prosecution to call up that witness for him to say nothing strange here.
He would have made a great defence witness.
Can someone help clear something up, do you have to delete all history or can you just choose certain parts?, could after 9.19pm have been deleted but before it left?.
Is it possible that sales can't find deleted history but someone else can?.
Just seems a very odd witness to call up.

I'm unable to speak for iPad specifically, however if it works the same as PC's and similar, deleted data can still be recovered, until it has been overwritten. A hard-drive saves data in blocks and those deleted blocks remain (even though you can't see them yourself) until another piece of data is saved on top of it. Only at that point is the data irretrievable. That said, there is no determination as to which pieces of data will still be there i.e. it doesn't work on a latest file date, or anything like that.

 

[Cher352]

I can't help but think that there just has to be more to this Ipad stuff, it made no sense for the prosecution to call up that witness for him to say nothing strange here.
He would have made a great defence witness.
Can someone help clear something up, do you have to delete all history or can you just choose certain parts?, could after 9.19pm have been deleted but before it left?.
Is it possible that sales can't find deleted history but someone else can?.
Just seems a very odd witness to call up.

Another question about Ipads since I don't own one.

The witness said the history before that day had been deleted and therefore not find anything more. With other cases I have seen, an expert could retrieve a lot of the deleted info from regular computers. Can not the same be done with Apple devices?

 

[anagrammy]

I think Reeva wanted to leave and Pistorius threw her jeans out the window to keep her from getting dressed. So she put back on the tank and shorts he gave her, still trying to leave.

Clearly OP was expecting sex and ramping up for it. Perhaps Reeva resisted, she couldn't stay and he replied badly because, like many privileged, he can't be told "no."

How do we know OP didn't send that message that it was too late to drive home and she was going to stay overnight after all?

 

[minor4th]

Another question about Ipads since I don't own one.

The witness said the history before that day had been deleted and therefore not find anything more. With other cases I have seen, an expert could retrieve a lot of the deleted info from regular computers. Can not the same be done with Apple devices?

I was wondering why they wouldn't be able to retrieve that data with police investigative software - HOWEVER, I do recall in some trial or other that special software is needed to access some data on ipads and iphones and it cannot all be retrieved like other smart phones.

Could be they didn't have the equipment to retrieve all the data or that is is simply not retrievable because of the architecture of the devide -- or there may be another expert who was able to access that data, and he will testify next week

 

[Cherwell]

I'm not sure if this has been posted already, but it makes interesting reading. Note it was written in 2011

Oscar Pistorius - Hero or Hooligan?

An extract:

There are a number of questions that have been left in our minds as a result of our unfortunate encounter with Oscar. Firstly, if he is such a ‘hero’ why was his default position one of extreme profanity, arrogance and disregard – even contempt - for others. Secondly, why did he believe being drunk excused his disgusting behaviour. Finally and I believe probably the most serious indictment against him from my perspective was related to why he felt the need to be abusive to women.

 

[steveml]

My current feeling towards the case is that we're not much further than we were after hearing the initial ear-witness statements.

I'm not really seeing a convincing picture being built of a fracas between Reeva and OP, other than the initial testimony of the neighbours, and there
aren't many points that you can tick off against OP's original statement that are in conflict with his version of events.

I'm sure there's plenty more to be heard yet, but that's where I'm at for the moment.

 

[nastasya]

I meant to mention that statement that there were no footprints found in the blood splatter in the toilet. After all the kerfuffle over contamination of the scene, and leaked media photos showing footprints, we now are told there were no footprints.

And Roux did not object to that either.

Shows OP lied about his story about going back and screaming out the window then putting on his prosthetic legs before returning to break down the door and pull RS out of the toilet area.

He hit the door with the bat and pulled RS out on his stumps just like the police demonstrated with the cricket bat. If he would have went back to put on his prosthetic legs he would have left footprints in the toilet area near the body. OP left no footprints in the blood in the bathroom.

This explains the blood in the bedroom. He went back into the bedroom after dragging RS out of the toilet area. It also explains the pools of blood in the bathroom outside the toilet area. He pulled her out of the toilet area on his stumps, left her there and called Stander instead of the police or an ambulance.

 

[Val1]

Just wondering, has anyone noticed OP wearing any other watches during the trial besides the one in this article?
http://news.yahoo.com/ballistics-expert-reconstructs-steenkamps-dying-moments-111557911.html

 

[nastasya]

My current feeling towards the case is that we're not much further than we were after hearing the initial ear-witness statements.

I'm not really seeing a convincing picture being built of a fracas between Reeva and OP, other than the initial testimony of the neighbours, and there
aren't many points that you can tick off against OP's original statement that are in conflict with his version of events.

I'm sure there's plenty more to be heard yet, but that's where I'm at for the moment.

What about these facts aren't convincing?

• Four witnesses were awakened in the middle of the night and heard a man and woman arguing, terrified screaming followed by gunshots, ending in silence.
  
• OP admitted to firing four shots and killing a woman in his home at the exact time the witnesses heard the screaming and gunshots.
  
• OP's explanation is that witnesses did not hear the ACTUAL crime, but only heard him making noises that coincidentally replicated the sounds of the crime they didn't really hear.
  
• The security guard, Pieter Baba, called OP's house after it was reported shots came from the house. OP told Baba "everything's ok" and didn't tell Baba to call police or an ambulance.
  
• Neither OP or his friends who knew about the shooting called the police. They instructed Baba to call the police only after Baba showed up at OP's house in spite of OP telling him everything was ok.
  
• According to OP the shooting was caused by the ordinary event of RS getting up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom.

State has prima facie case for premeditated murder. OP must now provide evidence and convince the judge that shooting RS was not a violation of SA criminal code.

 

[Val1]

That's rumor-mongering by the MSM from over a year ago. Lots of false stuff was similarly reported last year (head injuries to RS from the cricket bat for example). Also there's nothing there about "one hour after they arrived" - the latter would imply they were loudly arguing at 7:30 pm or something.

Just rumor-mongering?

Taken from the Media Links page:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsX8GFKSh6A&list=UUPgLNge0xqQHWM5B5EFH9Cg&index=3

When asked if the arrested individual has ever been involved in earlier incidents involving LE, particularly any related to assault or domestic abuse, LE responded that they wouldn't say anything specific to the person arrested but they would say that they had indeed been involved in previous incidents at the home of OP.

 

[zwiebel]

I totally agree!

BTW, am I the only one who thinks these jeans haven't been worn since being washed?

I enlarged the pic as big as I could on my ipad here - it was blurry but there did not seem to be any traces of creases behind the knees. A giveaway that jeans have been worn. Seems kind of odd though, that anyone would wash jeans with the belt still in the loops. Or is that just me?

It may actually be possible to find a picture of Reeva wearing those jeans, with a bit of searching. I will have a try later when I have a bit more time.

ETA Stretch jeans may not crease much after one wearing?

 

[zwiebel]

One other thing I would like to see explained - the damage that reportedly left gashes in OP's legs, with the 'skin' surface torn off and pure white revealed beneath.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

A close neighbour and a very good friend of OP prob. will be a defense witness..
Christo Menelaou the guy who supposedly lent the ladder to OP..

http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

AT EIGHT minutes past three on the morning of Valentine’s Day Christo Menelaou woke with a start. He’d heard what sounded like three thunderclaps.

At his home in the Silver Woods Estate east of Pretoria he lay in bed waiting for the rain to start.

Almost an hour later he went to the bathroom.

When he opened the window and looked outside he couldn’t believe his eyes. His window looks out onto an empty plot and Olympic and Paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius’ house.

The two men are close friends.

“His house used to be in pitch darkness at night, except for one light that was always on,” Christo (34) says. But that night all the lights were on and there were blue and red lights flashing outside the house.

..........

http://andrewazzopardi.org/2013/05/20/last-oscar-pistorius-love-pic-the-sun/

Christo, 34, added: “He cries a lot and says over and over, ‘I’m sorry.

.............

You Magazine 02 May 2013

 

[james83]

Just to confirm you can not delete individual items from the history of an ipad, you can however delete a day's worth of history, so in other words we can say for sure that there is nothing dodgy/incriminating from the Ipad that has been deleted on the 13th since there is history on the 13th, but if the Ipad was used from midnight onwards that is of course a different day and could well have been deleted.
I can't believe we have heard the last of it, the ipad stuff today was pointless for the prosecution if we have.