Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19, Day 13

[katydid23]

OK...this is an Excellent point.

Surely after the first shot Reeva would have cried/screamed out some type of noise.

Even a moan would most likely have a female sound.....any sound...a wounded sound.

Which is why Roux is fighting so hard to try and show that the headshot was the first shot, even though it does not seem to fit forensically. I wonder how his ballistics expert is going to try and paint that picture.

 

[lisasalinger]

When Col. Sales was testifying in regard to Ipad 2 and Ipad 3.. he didn't say he couldn't retrieve deleted history and information. . he said it was deleted... he then went on to say he retrieved ALL the info of both Ipads, . handed a copy of the info retrieved, and the Ipads ,1 and 2 over to the defence..

There is a further IPAD man up for testifying when court resumes.....

I go along with the testimony so far that there was a loud argument before the gunshots... does this follow that Oscar shot her because of an argument?? not necessarily.. the State has been at great pains to table evidence that Oscar is inclined to shoot his guns off in many moods.. for the hell of it in the restaurant.. out of spite and irritation on the Vaal River drive with Fresco and Samantha.. with annoyance he pulled a gun on the driver of a car that was behind him at the entrance gate to the estate..

Somebody further back in the posts..said they saw a game changing moment coming up very soon, I agree with that.. there was something extraordinary and totally out of the previous pace of the trial yesterday, Nel was zooming thru tabling the gorgeous Captain Mungheena's evidence then out of nowhere, Roux gave up after 10 mins of X-examine, then the Blood Spatter man.. racing thru getting it all tabled as evidence, then Roux , all at sea, 5 mins x-examine .... there is something afoot..

I wont go so far as to expect a plea change and plea bargain, but...... something has changed....

Its a public service holiday on Friday in SA.. so Nel has actually only asked for 1 days adjournment.. although it adds up to 4 days in total, taking account of the weekend.. his reason was.. he wants to 'reconsider the case'...


Last week, Nel asked for an extension of 3 weeks , and I think this was granted.. which would take it thru April... but suddenly, he expects to have his prosecutorial witnesses finished by next week.. this gives a hell of a lot of time to the defence witnesses. . I like it..

Any theories on what the game changer is?? I know that would be total speculation on your behalf, but you always have cool insight, so just curious.

 

[Duchy]

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page: When medical people refer to the right side or the left side of a patient, this is from the perspective of the patient himself.

So when placing Reeva in the toilet, keep in mind the right hip injury was HER right side.
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I am a bit surprised there were NO footprints what with all that blood inside that toilet room. So does that mean he did not get next to her body in there and attempt to lift her, but rather he what? Dragged her out by her legs?

-----------------------------------------------

Re: Blood spatter on wall above headboard. I'm pretty sure Prosecution has no general obligation, unless asked by Defense, to explain what they did NOT find, only what they did find that is relevant. Otherwise, it could take days to say what all was not found. Maybe Roux will want to explain whose blood it is and why it is there?

I don't know the rules of court on what all Prosecution is allowed to submit into evidence. They also submitted the photos of the bedroom door with the holes and the damaged bottom panel but have made no further explanation for that.

Hello all, been following all through trial and washing up piling up! Maybe no footprints because he was on stumps?

 

[Really?]

That does not really explain why he would lie about something like that - especially considering either 1) he was telling the truth, or 2) he would have been trying to construct a believable lie to fit the crime scene, so unlikely he would lie about such a thing.

I really don't think he would be able to forcefully swing a cricket bat and break through a door on his stumps -- don't know for sure but just don't see any reason he would lie about that. I also don't see how it helps the state's case at all if he was on his stumps and not his legs when he broke the door.

His claim to stumpdom is to reinforce his actions were caused by his sense of vulnerability .....whether limited....2nd reference.....(in his first reference to his stumps in the affidavit was mobile ) or extremely vulnerable <-----last reference to being on stumps.

 

[Duchy]

Re: the jeans
They look feminine. Could they have been hung somewhere or laid out over the rail of a balcony to dry in the sun after something was perhaps spilled on them? Is there any balcony above them anywhere that they could have fallen from?

Maybe Reeva threw them out because in her panic and not thinking straight she...

wanted to attract attention (summon help, waving them around an screaming) from outside or .... somehow thought she had hooked them on window catch to climb down and escape but couldn't/didn't anf they fell down:moo:?

 

[lisasalinger]

No i acknowledge that it doesn't on it's own prove anything, just seems like a long gap in such a confined area, i would imagine putting on the prosthesis may take 60-90 seconds, can't see where the rest of the time went.

Something else i've just realised from today, Nel was talking to Mangena about the bullet holes and he asked him if the pattern of the bullets could corresponded with the sounds a witness heard which was bang pause bang bang bang, this is the pattern Michelle Burger heard, but i believe i am right in saying this was the pattern she heard for the first set of sounds, therefore i believe i'm right in saying that Nel at that moment contradicted his own version of events as the state claims the second set of sounds were the gunshots?.

No, actually Burger and her husband Johnson only heard one set of sounds.
Bang... pause... bang bang bang. These noises were heard right around the 3:17am mark. Nel stated pretty clearly a week or two ago that it is the State's position that the sounds at 3:17am are indeed the gunfire that hit Reeva.

Dr. Stipp, the neighbor to the back of Oscar's home was the one that heard 2 different sets of sounds. The first set being prior to 3:15am that woke him up. He then heard frantic female screaming and another set of sounds after that presumably at the 3:17am timeframe.

The State has yet to theorize what they believe those earlier sounds to be. We have seen photos of an air gun and a metal baseball bat in the bedroom, but no theories yet on if those were used too.

 

[zwiebel]

Re; the jeans

I just looked at the jeans again. The bottom portions of both legs look like they are absolutely "flattened" and somehow don't look the same as the top portion of the jeans. Now we all know that nobody washed their jeans with a belt inside the loops. The only reason for a belt to be in the loops is they had been worn, then taken off.

This sounds crazy, but - if you wore a pair of jeans and the legs were all wrinkled at the backs of the knees, like they get, could you hold the jeans and dip the bottom portions of both legs into water - only up to above the knee area, then straighten them out nicely and hang or lay them outside to dry in the sun?

Another question I have: Do the windows in Praetoria not usually have screens? Did the bathroom window have a screen in place? Because with screens, no one could have thrown the jeans out of a window.

Also, just as an aside, if anyone knows, why had Oscar borrowed ladders from a neighbor? He does not strike me as the type to be doing household chores. (Someone links to a neighbor who will supposedly testify for the Defense saying that he loaned the ladders to Oscar. And also that at exactly 3:08am he heard three loud noises and thought it was thunder.)

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42108&d=1395254059

Lol, I happen to know the answer to your question about just the bottom of jeans being dipped in water, and if they then dry smooth in the sun. I have a foolish dog and live near water. In fact, I know the answer about when tops, coats and even hats get soaked too.

Yes, they do dry smooth. But stiff. And if you continue to move about in them as they dry, they can form odd creases too. Depending on the source of the water, it will leave a distinct tide mark as well.

 

[Trooper]

Any theories on what the game changer is?? I know that would be total speculation on your behalf, but you always have cool insight, so just curious.

I didn't mean to come across as mysterious, lisa.. !!.. or crystal ball gazing.. but ..

every day of this trial has produced a huge surprise.. on an hourly basis.. every day, the surprise is from an unexpected direction.. so one should be immune by now to the surprise... .

but .. its only instinct.. nothing more, and I wouldn't lay big money on it. but I would part with $500 .. Both Nel and Roux were hitting the afterburners.... things suddenly began to proceed at a tremendous clip, in contrast to the painstaking nitpicking ( I like nitpicking ) stuff gone before.. Roux , especially was out of his entire persona so far seen at the bench. He was SO fast, and so distracted.. there was none of this 'in all fairness' ' let me help you' ' I put it to you' stuff. nothing. wiped clean of that.

I did check to see if there was a big horse race at Turffontein track in Johannesburg yesterday afternoon.. Barristers often go to the races together.. but no.

its something looming. . hehe. oh. stop it trooper.. its about the Ipads, too.. I think..

or it's a tactic.. Nel asking for an extension, then giving a wrapping up time much closer than was alluded too.

anyways...

 

[Duchy]

Hypothetical Testimony and Cross Examination of OP:

R: Tell us what happened, Mr. Pistorius.

OP: "I tried to kill somebody in my toilet but I swear I didn't know it was Reeva. Honest.

R: "Your witness."


N: Tell us what happened again?

OP: "I wasn't trying to kill Reeva. I was trying to kill somebody else."


N: Who?

OP: "Whoever was in the toilet."


N: Why?

OP: "I heard them inside the toilet."


N: Why were you trying to kill them?

OP: "Because I thought I heard the bathroom window open."


N: What about 4 witnesses that heard a woman screaming?

OP: "That was me. I screamed like a terrified woman after I shot Reeva."''


N: But you didn't know you shot Reeva when you claimed to scream like a woman. She was still behind the locked toilet door.

OP: "I suddenly was able to see in the dark bedroom that she wasn't in bed. Then it dawned on me that it had to be Reeva who got up to pee when I was getting the fans and that it couldn't have been an intruder in the toilet. It's amazing how much clarity I had 10 seconds after firing four shots through the toilet door and killing somebody."


N: What about witnesses who heard an argument, and both a woman scream and man scream?

OP: "That's impossible. They couldn't have heard that because Reeva never screamed."


N: What about the witnesses who heard a woman screaming and gunshots?

OP: "That's impossible. Nobody could have heard anything to do with the actual killing! All they heard were the noises I made by myself after I killed Reeva. It wasn't the gunshots people heard. It was the cricket bat. It wasn't Reeva screaming because she was about to be gunned down. It was me screaming and my voice coincidentally sounded like a woman about to be gunned down."


N: So a woman getting up in the middle of the night to pee caused you to get your gun, charge into the bathroom, shoot four times through the toilet door, then run to your balcony and scream like a terrified woman?

OP: "Yes. And she opened the bathroom window. Don't forget that!"


N: Have you never slept with somebody who got up in the middle of the night to pee?

OP: "Yes, but this is a gated community in Pretoria! It's dangerous here! I bet men shoot their wives who get up to pee in the middle of the night all the time here!"


N: Anything else, Mr. Pistorius?

OP: "Oh yeah, I almost forgot. I have no legs. I feel very vulnerable when I'm running around on my stumps and all I have is a 9 mm Taurus Parabellum loaded up with Black Talons. You do realize I never did the assault rifle I ordered, right?"


N: Is that your best explanation, Mr. Pistorius?

OP: "Yes. Isn't that enough? I can't believe you had the audacity to think I did anything wrong! Do I get to go home now?"


This really isn't that complicated of a case, is it?

:floorlaugh: Where did i put those screenwipes:clap::tyou:

 

[lisasalinger]

Shows OP lied about his story about going back and screaming out the window then putting on his prosthetic legs before returning to break down the door and pull RS out of the toilet area.

He hit the door with the bat and pulled RS out on his stumps just like the police demonstrated with the cricket bat. If he would have went back to put on his prosthetic legs he would have left footprints in the toilet area near the body. OP left no footprints in the blood in the bathroom.

This explains the blood in the bedroom. He went back into the bedroom after dragging RS out of the toilet area. It also explains the pools of blood in the bathroom outside the toilet area. He pulled her out of the toilet area on his stumps, left her there and called Stander instead of the police or an ambulance.

BBM

Great points!

The lack of footprints in the bathroom and on the carpet does definitely point to him being on his stumps while breaking down the door and pulling her out, then later going in to the bedroom to put on his prosthetics (while her wounds pool some more on the bathroom floor).

He could have wiped the ends of his stumps off with those towels before going back in to the bedroom because I would think the blood would make it slippery.

Otherwise, we probably would have seen large bloody smears left behind by the stumps as he walked from the tiled floor to the carpeted floor.

 

[whiterum]

Only reason i can think of is perhaps he thought it would look bad to say thing's in his affidavit like "As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable".
And then a few lines later admit to smashing a door down with a cricket bat whilst on his stumps.
Just a theory.

Ii could also be that in his affidavit he says he put his legs on before first kicking the door then beating the toilet door open with the bat to supposedly save RS after shooting. Then seeing first hand the horrific injuries he had inflicted on her he drags her out and phones Stander.

In reality it could be that on his stumps and in a rage he first tried to bash in the door (RS screaming throughout this attack) causing weakening cracks. He then lifts gun and shoots through the door before prising the cracked panel off with the edge of the bat. He sees first hand just how critically RS is wounded but being on stumps should not deter him from immediately tending to her injuries where she lay, automatically phoning for help or activating the security alarm even at this point.

No he wastes what could be vital life saving time by going back to the bedroom, putting on his legs, shouting for help and whatever before going back to bathroom, dragging her out of the toilet, then phoning Stander and carrying her downstairs.

 

[MeeBee]

I think she has the duty to decide whether it was reasonable to assume it was an intruder in the bathroom, when he had not yet looked to see if his girlfriend was in bed. I think it is unreasonable to assume there is an intruder in your home, if you have not yet checked on the other occupants whereabouts.

I do not believe that she has to accept his version, that he believed it to be an intruder, if there were no other corroborating facts to support that. The dogs were not barking, the ladder was not tall enough, it was a gated community, the bathroom window was very small, etc etc. And he had not checked to see if it was his girlfriend that was using the toilet.

I think she does though. The burden of proof is on the state. If they fail to make their case then you must give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant and accept their version as "true" whether you believe it or not. At this point, I don't think we can say for sure who's version is true. Unfortunately, the state has fallen just short of totally convincing me. His neighbor hearing bangs at 3:08 totally corroborates what Stipp heard. And this kind of corroborates Oscar's version. In fact, all the evidence does. There were two sets of bands. The banging of the bat and the gunshots might very well have sounded the same from a distance. There are bullet holes through the broken panel, also corroborating Oscar's version. I can't deny this. Now, who knows, maybe he made up a story to for around the real version. But that's speculation.

If I were a juror and this happened on the US, I would have no choice but to find him not guilty of premeditated murder. I would vote for guilty of manslaughter, though. He acted recklessly, any way you slice it, and took the life of an innocent. I think he should be held in some way accountable for that. The poor women, the pain she must have felt when those bullets ripped her apart. There must be retribution for that.

 

[lisasalinger]

I didn't mean to come across as mysterious, lisa.. !!.. or crystal ball gazing.. but ..

every day of this trial has produced a huge surprise.. on an hourly basis.. every day, the surprise is from an unexpected direction.. so one should be immune by now to the surprise... .

but .. its only instinct.. nothing more, and I wouldn't lay big money on it. but I would part with $500 .. Both Nel and Roux were hitting the afterburners.... things suddenly began to proceed at a tremendous clip, in contrast to the painstaking nitpicking ( I like nitpicking ) stuff gone before.. Roux , especially was out of his entire persona so far seen at the bench. He was SO fast, and so distracted.. there was none of this 'in all fairness' ' let me help you' ' I put it to you' stuff. nothing. wiped clean of that.

I did check to see if there was a big horse race at Turffontein track in Johannesburg yesterday afternoon.. Barristers often go to the races together.. but no.

its something looming. . hehe. oh. stop it trooper.. its about the Ipads, too.. I think..

or it's a tactic.. Nel asking for an extension, then giving a wrapping up time much closer than was alluded too.

anyways...

I agree that the last two days have been like a round of speed quarters (remember that game in college)... Now that we're down to the really good stuff, everybody is rushing. Obviously they have their reasons why. Can't wait to see!

 

[kittychi]

No, actually Burger and her husband Johnson only heard one set of sounds.
Bang... pause... bang bang bang. These noises were heard right around the 3:17am mark. Nel stated pretty clearly a week or two ago that it is the State's position that the sounds at 3:17am are indeed the gunfire that hit Reeva.

Dr. Stipp, the neighbor to the back of Oscar's home was the one that heard 2 different sets of sounds. The first set being prior to 3:15am that woke him up. He then heard frantic female screaming and another set of sounds after that presumably at the 3:17am timeframe.

The State has yet to theorize what they believe those earlier sounds to be. We have seen photos of an air gun and a metal baseball bat in the bedroom, but no theories yet on if those were used too.

BBM: During the night in a quiet gated community, this screaming had to be very alarming to hear.

IMO Oscar was grasping at straws when he put that affi together (I'm sure with Roux's help), knowing that the windows were open and neighbors very likely heard Reeva screaming.

I am taken back to OJ Simpson's body language and the look on his face when he heard the "Not Guilty" verdict. It was a look of non-belief, a look of "I can't believe I got away with it." (We remember there was rampant LE ineptness in that case!)

If OP somehow gets away with the intentional killing of Reeva Steenkamp, or gets a suspended sentence or some such, I have a feeling we would see a similar reaction from him!


Just MOO!

 

[Really?]

aha. yes.. I'm convinced he shot her those last 3 times because she screamed..


re Freud.. I don't believe he said "Reeva , call the police.. '... my opinion only .. he wouldn't have trusted the police, he hated the police, they had the nerve to touch his gun!! ( Vaal River drive ) they touched his gun!!.

I think, when he made that statement, subconsciously he was thinking that SOME busybody called the police.. and wanted to make out that's what he would do. Strangely, when he was faced with a mangled and slaughtered body, ripped apart by his fave Black Talons, he doesn't call the police. His first instinct is to veer off from calling the police.. In fact, he never called the police at any time.

It just doesn't work out that he would instruct Reeva to call the police.. I doubt if that phrase is in his vocabulary.

On this note...lol...I am going to call it a night.....I will read till the end of the thread and will be back tomorrow for further discussion......

 

[zwiebel]

I am kind of working my way to a theory that Reeva locked him out of the bedroom, he tried to break down the door, then ran and fetched spare keys when that failed. As he opened that door, I think it was her screaming 'Help' from the balcony.

Then I think she just made it to the toilet before OP got to her - maybe she even knocked him down, as he might have been off balance on his stumps, with his legs locked in the bedroom with Reeva.

At the locked toilet door, a furious OP realized there was no spare key for that one (many people wouldn't keep a spare for a door where the key is never supposed to be removed). He bashed it with the cricket bat (and the tub, in pure temper) and woke Dr Stipp up.

Then he sighted Reeva through a sliver of a crack in the door, she began the bloodcurdling screams that woke everyone in the neighborhood, and then shot her through the door, until she stopped screaming. Bang...bang bang bang.

Then he pushed in the panels with his strong, bare hands, reached in for the key on the floor, checked Reeva was dead and obstructed her airway if she wasn't... and then began the staging. Which I haven't worked out yet and think was improvised, to say the least.

 

[kittychi]

On this note...lol...I am going to call it a night.....I will read till the end of the thread and will be back tomorrow for further discussion......

You put in a good day, Really?. Permission granted to go night-night ; )

fftobed:

 

[nastasya]

Here's a very simple graphic that illustrates state's case vs. defendant's case.

Notice how OP takes specific actions that allegedly precluded witnesses from hearing gunshots or possible screams made by RS.

Is this reasonable? Not only did OP mistake sound of RS in bathroom for intruder, he claims that he sandwiched shooting RS with taking precise actions that would have prevented witnesses from hearing him kill RS, but allowed witnesses to hear him scream and the sound of the cricket bat hitting the door.

 

[zwiebel]

I have no proof for my theories. It's all circumstantial, as is most evidence.

My fave example - probably apocryphal:

Defence: Did you see that man bite off his ear?

Witness: No, but I saw them fighting and-

Defence: So you admit you did not see my client bite off that man's ear?

Witness: No, but they were fighting and-

Defence: Thank you, that's all.

Prosecutor rises.

Pros: Did you see the defendant bite off the victim's ear?

Witness: No.

Pros: Then how do you know he did it?

Witness: Because I saw him spit it out.

 

[Trooper]

I am kind of working my way to a theory that Reeva locked him out of the bedroom, he tried to break down the door, then ran and fetched spare keys when that failed. As he opened that door, I think it was her screaming 'Help' from the balcony.

Then I think she just made it to the toilet before OP got to her - maybe she even knocked him down, as he might have been off balance on his stumps, with his legs locked in the bedroom with Reeva.

At the locked toilet door, a furious OP realized there was no spare key for that one (many people wouldn't keep a spare for a door where the key is never supposed to be removed). He bashed it with the cricket bat (and the tub, in pure temper) and woke Dr Stipp up.

Then he sighted Reeva through a sliver of a crack in the door, she began the bloodcurdling screams that woke everyone in the neighborhood, and then shot her through the door, until she stopped screaming. Bang...bang bang bang.

Then he pushed in the panels with his strong, bare hands, reached in for the key on the floor, checked Reeva was dead and obstructed her airway if she wasn't... and then began the staging. Which I haven't worked out yet and think was improvised, to say the least.

gee whizzo, Zwi.. the staging.. that's the word I have been searching for since the delightful Captain Mahngeena's entrance into my world.. ( and wasn't it a bonus that he then sat down behind Nel next to Van Staden for our viewing ! )...

staging. and certainly improvised on the fly, too. it may be non PC to say he was thinking on his feet, but it will have to suffice..

the bathroom window. . staging?? did he open it, or perhaps Clarice??

the bedroom. he's moving fast now.. he's shot her, he has to stump back for his legs, turn the light on, he's fumbling and in tremendous come down of rage and shock, he has to think fast... he's forgotten he left the Parrabellum gun loaded with 2 black talons still in the chamber, and fullycocked , safety off, dropped on the towels in the bathroom. That's slipped his mind. the holster?? the Duvet?? the elusive phones, ??

I'm following you, though..